1. #46
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    As has been said the problem with giving apus the anti buff is that they would just become the main target again and they already drop in seconds even with ppu buffs. They could test this when titan comes out I guess but all I suspect giving apus the anti buff would do is make it so the person who can anti buff dies quickly so nobody can anti-buff making ppus even more powerful.

    The issue is how potent a ppus buffs are right now and as such they determine who wins the fight pretty much. I gave the example earlier of a 2v2 fight 1 ppu and 1 damage dealer on each side. Who determines who wins this fight? the ppu does cos if you have the awful ppu who can't land a heal or a debuff you've lost. Admittedly if the debuff was moved to the apu this would make the issue a bit better as it would just be constant healing though this would also make the ppu a more boring class.

    The other thing is that while the issue should also be looked at as if there was nobody with a debuff at a fight, in that case should a ppus buffs be so powerful? The answer for me is no, right now ppu buffs on other people are just to potent, I know they already affect other people less but personally if people don't want the ppu removed they should at least have their buffs have even less of an effect on other people to bring their power more in line.

    Basically what I'm hoping for is a world where in a 2v2 fight, 1 side have 2 damage dealers the other having a ppu and a damage dealer either side could win. In the current climate the side with the ppu will win except under extreme circumstances such as the 2 enemy damage dealer hitting almost all the time while the 1 on the side of the ppu always misses.
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  2. #47
    Neocron Veteran Ascension's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIABLO666 View Post
    As has been said the problem with giving apus the anti buff is that they would just become the main target again and they already drop in seconds even with ppu buffs. They could test this when titan comes out I guess but all I suspect giving apus the anti buff would do is make it so the person who can anti buff dies quickly so nobody can anti-buff making ppus even more powerful.

    The issue is how potent a ppus buffs are right now and as such they determine who wins the fight pretty much. I gave the example earlier of a 2v2 fight 1 ppu and 1 damage dealer on each side. Who determines who wins this fight? the ppu does cos if you have the awful ppu who can't land a heal or a debuff you've lost. Admittedly if the debuff was moved to the apu this would make the issue a bit better as it would just be constant healing though this would also make the ppu a more boring class.

    The other thing is that while the issue should also be looked at as if there was nobody with a debuff at a fight, in that case should a ppus buffs be so powerful? The answer for me is no, right now ppu buffs on other people are just to potent, I know they already affect other people less but personally if people don't want the ppu removed they should at least have their buffs have even less of an effect on other people to bring their power more in line.

    Basically what I'm hoping for is a world where in a 2v2 fight, 1 side have 2 damage dealers the other having a ppu and a damage dealer either side could win. In the current climate the side with the ppu will win except under extreme circumstances such as the 2 enemy damage dealer hitting almost all the time while the 1 on the side of the ppu always misses.
    APU's are usually first down anyway as they're so fragile now, the threat of holy pestilence in an Op war situation has to be eradicated as quickly as its pretty potent. That is the only time when playing APU that I feel remotely powerful, as all my other offensive spells aren't so offensive any more.

    As an APU back in the day, it was always the case, however they used to be able to take more of a beating, but then it used to be shelter/deflector and anti heal didn't exist.

  3. #48
    Registered User eNTi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIABLO666 View Post
    Basically what I'm hoping for is a world where in a 2v2 fight, 1 side have 2 damage dealers the other having a ppu and a damage dealer either side could win. In the current climate the side with the ppu will win except under extreme circumstances such as the 2 enemy damage dealer hitting almost all the time while the 1 on the side of the ppu always misses.
    this. that's the best example es to why ppus are op. they are imba. that's why even the worst of pvp games wow has a better class balance than neocron. the only other option would be to give every OTHER class than ppu antis. ofc they cries in the forums are loud if someone calls for the removal of ppus in their current form. they will miss their godlike characters!

  4. #49
    Huckle Beare' Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    Skill makes up a lot more of the imbalance in this game than in wow (imo). Just because some players cannot coordinate very well or dont communicate well doesnt mean stuff should get nerfed.

    Yes if your facing a ppu army this isnt fair but right now having trolled through this entire thread i think you are all mixing up to inherently different issues. The power of the ppu vs the antibuff to the apu.

    The counterarguements are flawed in giving back the antibuff to the apu. They are based on right now and the current state of the apu. Yet you are at the same time imagining the changes to be made when you have not considered the key issue which is how could the apu be changed so that he isnt too brittle and dies fast.

    Class balance is a much bigger issue. This thread has become convoluted and blurred the lines between discussion that it needs to be paired down and reevaluated. Too many ideas being spouted that may or not be the best ideas.

    In nc1 the monk was stronger. Fact. During the Summer (northern hemisphere) of 2005 the game was awash with monkocron. Apu/ppu teams at EVERY op fight.

    I DO NOT want to go back that. So how do you counter this one first of all. Well heres a fucking cool idea. Give the Antibuff to the APU and the PE. He has the 2nd best psi in the game and hes really a utility char. Why not allow him to (if specced correctly) use an antibuff too. Or a better db or both. Its yet another idea to be brought to the table.

    As for removing ppus. I keep reading but im not seeing any really strong suggestions for doing this. I think its stupid and should not be ever implemented. Some people love to play the ppu. It would take away another aspect of some peoples games. So its a big fat no from me.

    Look at ways of balancing it all (IN LINE with all the other balancing) and im happy to contribute. Dont remove a class for the sake of it because you cant think of a better way to do it.

    Some of you could do with a history lesson. Monkocron was very real and while there was a lot wrong with it there was also some very good points to be taken from it. PPUS could, at least, be more easily be killed but there was too much emphasis on the monk teams that ran around forsaking other classes. Im no proponent of going back to those days but on the flip side at least the apu wasnt as bad as it is now and people didnt cry saying ppus are godlike because they cant beat them for example.


    im half expecting a thread to pop up saying bring back shitbuffing and parashock next.
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  5. #50
    Registered User Gashmore's Avatar
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    I think theyre too intergrated into the game to remove now

  6. #51
    Registered User eNTi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
    ...
    The counterarguements are flawed in giving back the antibuff to the apu. They are based on right now and the current state of the apu. Yet you are at the same time imagining the changes to be made when you have not considered the key issue which is how could the apu be changed so that he isnt too brittle and dies fast.
    ...
    i've written down some ideas how to rework psi to allow for a fairer class balance in the "ideas for apus thread". i'm all against giving the apu antis back. i still think that will not work as some people intend it to. atm psi is lackluster for any other class than monk. i can't believe that was ever the intention. this can be seen especially on the tank who was striped of psi altogether. the introduction of the tradeskill gloves and especially nanites made it even less interesting to use low psi. low and mid psi needs buffing. but that's far from all that needs to change. even the pe with his limited ability to dip into mid level psi is best served by putting every last point into psi resist.

    if you think of it, i wonder what kk was trying to do when they implemented psi in the first place. i mean i guess they tried to capture the spirit of shadowrun and utterly failed when one op build after another broke class balance to the point where they basically removed psi from all classes but the monk. the results is a completely broken pvp game evolving around who's got the better ppus.

    yes you can outsmart people and yes you can be more skillful, but what if i'm not? i'm not a good pvp player and yet i want to take part without having to resort to using a rifle spy or a ppu, because everyone else is basically shafted. this is especially true in op fights. wherever ppus appear the meta game shifts from player skill to #ppus and their skill.

    ppus should be a support class that brings value to a fight and not be the end of all means. i don't think this is possible without shafting the profession to the point where no one cares to play one any more. much like it happened with the apu. psi is a poorly integrated game feature and it needs a rework badly.

    merging apu+ppu, buffing low/mid level ppu, nerfing high level ppu, buffing and diversifying apu. then let tanks use low level psi. spies low+some mid level and pes low, mid, and some high level psi stuff. that would be a start.
    Last edited by eNTi; 14-06-13 at 10:16.

  7. #52
    freedom for neocron! Torg's Avatar
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    dont remove the ppu please. instead, add some int-based tools to buff and heal others, for use by spys, pe's and apus. just to level the field more evenly.

    seriously. technical ("quantum"?) heals an buffs, ruled by INT and maybe WEP.

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    OMG!!!!!

    Did you read the things you write before posting.
    Removing PPU!!!!!!!! Giving other classes buff shields and heal !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's everybody being Hybrid!! So that, we won't care of playing any class (they will all have the same features).
    NO!!!!!! Never!!!!
    PPU is what make neocron different from a classical FPS. There is actualy an issu with PPU, they are to usefull in fight, that's right.

    But the fact is that PPU should not HAB, this is the APU's duty. Some people say APU will be focused, I was playing and still play apu. From the start of NC1 to now days APU are the first focused, so when you play apu you know that your time could be short.

    Let's imagine an OP fight, you are apu, you try to hide with the PPU of your team, try to find enemy's apu. You spot one, start an HAB. You are sure that your HAB is good, you take fire apo and start to kill the openent.
    Now just think of it. If a PPU HAB you, he need friends dps to kill you, with apu this is not the same, he HAB you then start to kill you on his own, he is didn't need focus. That's what used to make apu strong. In neocron you were fighting to protect your HAB (Apu), and try to kill enemy's ones. That's what make the fight interesant. It's not just a question of number, if you better protect your apu you will win. Actualy the HAB don't need protection because the ppu got every AB.

    PPU must be hard to kill, unless they will be impossible to play. In my opinion, a ppu may be killed buy 3 or 4 attakers with one that could HAB.

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