1. #31
    Huckle Beare' Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIABLO666 View Post
    a grim for example can drop only 1 rare part and give 5k for a kill but thats pretty much worthwhile if its a solo kill not for a group... The effort it takes to kill these monsters compared to the reward is the real issue I'd say.

    also it would be nice to have places people could hunt solo though.
    Play more. Post less.

    Obviously in response to the thread starter i was reffering to pve. That should have been as clear as a blue sky.

    grims drop 1-3 rares btw. Im not nitpicking but the more you post the less i feel you really know about the topic you are discussing. I would advise to just take a step back and read more and listen to others (and that doesnt mean on the in game help channel) as you arent playing with all the facts at times it seems.


    Range is not an exploit. its called using range. neither is cover.

    Djs comment about oh i can do it fine with a pistol is so short sighted.

    The reason for that is because you have to think about how it compares to other classes. The pistol guy doesnt have the advantage of range so will take far longer to kill a mob because of time spent healing as he gets bashed up more. This extends his effective hunting time and means that he is at a massive disadvantage out in the world compared a hc or rifle user. The melee user is even worse off than the pistol user. This, for anyone still confused, is why i said pistols and melee are a joke.

    So how do u propose to fix this.

    one option would be to scale back the mob damage of the mobs in the world. Make caves etc require a team and a ppu as yes they are indeed our versions of dungeons. It needs a healer to take the team through. chaos caves once upon a time could be done without one if the team wasnt dumb but by and large its easier and would make it much easier on people to level a pure ppu. You could show up at a cave entrance go "HAI" throw a heal on someone and instantly get in to the team. then you can level. This is a good thing.

    It might actually mean changing mob ranks or having some kind of dungeon buff to scale them according to the challenge but this imo would be the best way to do it.

    It would offer solo play for those who want it or team play (in the caves) and hopefully in time when the swamp caves etc are fixed and balanced plenty more spots to go to to farm.

    So you can get a woc pistol and an ionic and shoot someone in the legs or what ever because thats what nc is all about.

    /bows
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dribble Joy View Post
    Question:
    Why should a player be able to solo a mob of higher level than themselves without considerable risk?

    A hopper is /66 (?), why should it be easy for a capped char to down one?

    Warbots are twenty levels above a capped char, why do people expect them to drop like flies?
    Even on a pistol char I have no problem with WBs as they are at them moment. Do you want to be able to stand in front of them and plug away until it dies with no chance of dying?
    No god mode of course. But a cr twenty levels higher for a mob shouldn't mean insta death or 2 shot death for me.

    The reason for it is that it really should feel like a fight, as the OP explained.

    Remembering my very first char in 2004 that was a MC tank I know how difficult it was to kill a Warbot alone but I was able to do it. Same goes for Brutes and Decayed Horrors.

    Of course it was always a close fight and if a second mob spawned I was dead meat, but it still was possible. That made the heart reate go up

    Hiding behind corners shooting grenades is really dumb, compared to that.
    Last edited by Ivan Eres; 13-06-13 at 10:42.

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    Oh Doc holiday again you decide to misinterpret what I said, I said CAN drop only 1 rare I didn't say thats the limit just that its possible for them to drop only 1, I spend a lot of time for mob hunting so I know full well what they can drop. As such if you kill a grim and get 1 rare its a waste of your time unless you are doing it solo.

    As for range how is shooting things from so far away that not only can they not hit you but their ai doesn't even have a clue where you are or what to do not a exploit? Same goes for standing just under a ridgeline so you don't get hit by anything, you could say its tactics I guess but its more exploiting the bad ai and how they shoot.
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  4. #34
    Registered User Neallys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dribble Joy View Post
    Question:
    Why should a player be able to solo a mob of higher level than themselves without considerable risk?

    A hopper is /66 (?), why should it be easy for a capped char to down one?

    Warbots are twenty levels above a capped char, why do people expect them to drop like flies?
    Even on a pistol char I have no problem with WBs as they are at them moment. Do you want to be able to stand in front of them and plug away until it dies with no chance of dying?

    Obviously this raises questions about the viability of solo leveling (including but not restricted to risk, xp and loot/reward), but then this is an MMO, isn't the team supposed to be something greater than the sum of it's parts?
    Very interesting point of view. I haven't mentioned it a lot in this thread, but team leveling should also be more rewarding.

    When you say a Hopper has a higher level than a player and shouldn't be soloed easily, I agree. This also raise a question of changing the CR of the mobs to make a little bit more sense. While I see your point here, it is easily countered with the actual PvE system. Because not only you can solo a /66, but you can solo 7 120/120 with a creed or another weapon of that type as easy as it sounds.

    Which I think is wrong, because if you do get closer with a PPU or even a team, there is a high possibility that you all get killed. A looot of PvE in this game can be done solo/dual logged, not to say maybe all the things can be done that way. Of course I am not saying you should be able to solo a 120/120 and get out of it with 10hp loss at the end of it. But what I am saying is that all the PvE you do in this game, is done by hiding and kinda exploiting the IA and/or the system, which leads to a poor and VERY BORING interaction, that could be so much better
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  5. #35
    Grace of God evs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neallys View Post
    When you say a Hopper has a higher level than a player and shouldn't be soloed easily, I agree. This also raise a question of changing the CR of the mobs to make a little bit more sense.
    Yup I agree with that rather than making them incredibly tough.

    When you get around /40 you can range kill a lot of bigger mobs with a decent ranged weapon/drone or using cover.
    The hopper mob is a good example as they are pretty much small change compared to big cash earners in the game like barter, researching bp missions and so on and carry items which are largely useless other than to recycle or vendor in the case of the level 1 imps that drop.
    As far as I can see the hopper is in the game primarily as a mob to be beat up for levelling purposes and add atmosphere.

    If we take it as literal and say 'well its 66/66 players shouldn't be able to kill them without a real fight as they are tougher than players' then you start to remove the actual reason it's there in the game.

    The game doesn't have the population for it to require any kind of levelling post aggressors need to have a PPU.
    The choice levelling spots/areas, caves and so on - yup team and ppu all day long, it's a team sport there.

    Out in the wild though? It should all be soloable in my opinion (as it is currently)
    I agree though that it shouldn't be cheese tactics to kill these things off and that a melee tank should be able to kill a hopper.
    After all, we're the players in the game, not the hopper.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by DIABLO666 View Post
    As for range how is shooting things from so far away that not only can they not hit you but their ai doesn't even have a clue where you are or what to do not a exploit? Same goes for standing just under a ridgeline so you don't get hit by anything, you could say its tactics I guess but its more exploiting the bad ai and how they shoot.
    GMs have stated that these are not considered exploits! I agree that its stupid and boring but they are not exploits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J@ck on Cr@ck View Post
    GMs have stated that these are not considered exploits! I agree that its stupid and boring but they are not exploits.
    Regardless of them not being exploits its still not how pve should be balanced really, I can spend hours in fire mob zones taking no damage using these non expoits, thats not how it should be really, in what other game can you attack mobs while they can't hurt you?
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIABLO666 View Post
    ... thats not how it should be really, in what other game can you attack mobs while they can't hurt you?
    In many. In some its kiting, in others it works if you use a range weapon and run backwards versus some of the mobs. I really like how it IS possible in Neocron not to get hurt. Most Games get it wrong were its taken for granted that you get hit. Even if the enemy is twelve times as high as you, doesn't matter, just take a few hits.
    Of course the possibility of not getting hit would ideally be counterbalanced by a more or less decent AI, and I know of no MMORPG at the moment that has anywhere near that. Most enemies in games just run at you and then hit you, or have a prescripted behaviour. Neocron has nice exceptions, but sadly those make the AI broken most times. Or these are because the AI is broken?
    I wonder if we could work on the AI?
    Different and diverse Mob behaviour would be really nice, especially if it would make the mobs a bit more effective in behaviour. Staying on your feet and think faster to not get hit would make things more exiting than get to range and shoot till its dead, sometimes back a bit up because another mob aggroed too.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIABLO666 View Post
    Oh Doc holiday again you decide to misinterpret what I said, I said CAN drop only 1 rare I didn't say thats the limit just that its possible for them to drop only 1, I spend a lot of time for mob hunting so I know full well what they can drop. As such if you kill a grim and get 1 rare its a waste of your time unless you are doing it solo.

    As for range how is shooting things from so far away that not only can they not hit you but their ai doesn't even have a clue where you are or what to do not a exploit? Same goes for standing just under a ridgeline so you don't get hit by anything, you could say its tactics I guess but its more exploiting the bad ai and how they shoot.

    as i said. Play more post less and then maybe take a lot more time to post each post rather than power posting and making a fuck up of what you want to say? We can avoid these so called misunderstandings.

    The Ai DOES have a clue where you are as it can easily be shown with warbots for example and the hits you take. Even if on screen the rocket for example flies over your head or you duck down as it flies at you and it hits dirt instead you can still see damage come off. Sometimes it calculates damage before the animation plays. Just because they wander about a bit off in the distance before they come at you doesnt necessarily mean the ai is fubar or what ever.

    As i said. ranging them is a valid tactic and really the only one currently.

    If your gonna challenge me again about what i do or don't understand make sure you have all your ducks in a row first. not a flame. just a friendly piece of advice.
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    Not if you use a gun at an extreme enough range it doesn't, if you fire at the extra range of some guns the mobs will walk away from you as your so far away it doesn't have a clue whats going on, and thats something I've seen happen first hand so stop trying to deny it.

    And just because you didn't understand what I was saying doesn't mean there was an issue with it.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIABLO666 View Post
    Not if you use a gun at an extreme enough range it doesn't, if you fire at the extra range of some guns the mobs will walk away from you as your so far away it doesn't have a clue whats going on, and thats something I've seen happen first hand so stop trying to deny it.
    this is 1000% accurate, doc maybe u should stop concentrating so hard on diablo's post and follow your own advise, play more, troll less. and when did it become ok to be able to damage mobs in a way that they cant damage u back? I have an email from a gm i could post that states otherwise. uses words like safespotting and official warning. Now i agree with the op here 100% this thread hammers home alot of points that people have talked about ever since they made these changes. I completely understand why they made the changes, but ill say it again like i said back then. The changes made to mob damage are great if the population has the players to support it. during peak hours theres no problem finding teams in most popular leveling areas. but at night, population is 4% half of that are probably dual and triple logged. u dont find too many teams. so the people/americans who play at nite have very few options. and oh by the way, they are aware of mobs being to powerful as stated by trivaldi on his interview on neocast
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  12. #42
    Registered User nabbl's Avatar
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    Why is everybody thinking that "teaming" means to find a PPU?

    Hunting Warbots is easily possible when teaming with another runner even at closed range. Because you can switch aggro from time to time to heal up.

    Best example is the bunker anyway. Low level players with a baserank of 15 are killing mobs three times higher than themselves. Just because of their numbers :-)

    People still think they have to go out there alone.

  13. #43

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    Well PvE in neocron is far from challenging and being fun... Theres just 2 extremes ... dumb and slow melee mobs that can easily be outranged by almost everyone or the extra hard ranged ones that can shoot even if you don't see them anymore and are able to kill you with in1-3 hits... The solution schould be somewhere in between.

    Someone mentioned regants to be too easy ... and thats true. If you can outrange everything and outheal all the stuff you can not avoid even as an APU theres something wrong. But think about it ... Regant's Bossroom is the most complex PvE Area we have in Neocron. There is a "tactic" involved to do it right. Too bad we all mastered this tactic and it feels too easy now.

    Let me stick to Regant's and introduce some minor changes that could make the whole thing interesting again ...
    What we have now is the crazy amount of Crawlers and Mutants that aggro the first target possible and stick to that target until it dies.
    - tbh thats a good thing ... it gives us one aspect in that fight, than can be handled by one player whos fast enough to ourtange them ... so we have the first mechanic assingned to the first groupmember

    The bad thing now is, that the 2nd thing, the Boss can almost be ignored until it dies within AoE anyways and our "team" does not even need a second member. So lets change what the Boss does.
    He has its AoE attack, that can do a good amount of damage but can be outhealed with Medkits and Injectiontools. Thats dumb.
    - Lets increase that aoe damage so even a PPU-supportet Tank could not stand it for long and find another way to deal with it.

    If you can not outheal or outrange something we need a new way to avoid it. What if the Boss stops doing his AoE if someone is in melee-range? It has an melee-attack already, wich basicly can 2-hit a tank so that would need adjustment.
    - Make the Boss stop AoE when he has a in meleerange
    - Lower the dmg of that attack, so it can be outhealed with PPU support or handled by at least 2 "Tanks" that alternately step in and out of his range to share the hits and heal them selfes up again.

    Now we basicly have a fight that takes at least 3 players to accomplish ... 1 "kiter" for melee mobs, 1 "tank" to stop the boss from aoeing and 1 "Healer" or "off-tank" to deal with the incoming melee-dmg. Everything will become as easy as it is now as soon as the boss dies, but until that point it should be a challenge for small groups and almost impossible to do alone.

    Well, theres another thing that has to be changed ... trigger the aggro for all meleemobs not only to to the first one they spot, but also to the first one who attacks the boss. Otherwise it would be possible to "position" the Crawlers somewhere, resync and dps down the boss at the entrance.

    Thats a few little changes in the mechanics of just one mob that could make the whole thing much more interesting. Imagine the possibilities if we extend that to other mobs ...

    Maybe you can change Grim Persicutors, to Melee-Attack you and stop throwing Fireballs at point-blank range. You may want to have a Melee Tank by your side, when hunting them. Cause Melee-Classes could get an ability to avoid melee hit, based on melee-combat, athletics and constitution-level. So it makes them the only players to be able to take a bunsh of hits from these mobs.
    And if you change mobaggro to be based on something understandable (like damage done) you could play with these mechanics... having your melee tank with you, getting the shit beaten out of him by your targets als long as you don't outdamage him. IF so the mob will suddenly turn arround and throw you some fireballs in your face again.

    As we talk about grim chasers ... even if none of that changes will ever make it into game ... pls fix his beam attack, so it will be always visible ... if you can't get rid of it ... autoaiming fireballs is enough, there don't need to be an invisible attack that instagibs you.

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  14. #44

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    Neocron was one of the "grind" Games where leveling was fun. But what is nowdays going on is beyond fun. There are some spots like regant giving a enourmous amount of exp for nearly 0 risk. Facing a Terrormauler without hiding is more challanging than cleaning Regant Fortress. There was a good balance in Neocron 1 in the end. I used to level alot by hunting Doom Reaper and other fire mobs with a tank. A full inqi equiped tank could face 3 Doom Reaper at the same time with the result he is going to low health but would be able to survive or dealing with 5 Doom Reaper in a row before start resting and healing. (Terrormauler dmg was equivalent to Doomies) The threat of a Grim Chaser or Persi was that they spawn adds. A good DD like the APU was able to kill a Grim Chaser with only one add wave getting spawned. The damage from Grims was very high, but not in a burst like today. There was a lot more gameplay like take cover and heal out the burn stack. Today its just omfg hit 5XX dmg.
    Warbots are the next good example. A full duranium equiped Tank was able to face a Warbot without hiding. Today it would take less than 5 sec to die.
    The result of that -> finding a good place to exploit aka Savespots, or a very easy way to get massiv exp like regant.

  15. #45
    Registered User Neallys's Avatar
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    So I wanted to repost on the thread because I really think PvE is in dire need of changes either it is rareparts hunting and making trade more active or the whole leveling process. I really hate to tell myself how much of a huge pain it is going to be to level a new character, to buy a repair tool and nanites as a mandatory way to level up a monk's dex or use drone as it is the most effective and fastest way to level. I propose we tweak the XP rewards and the way of getting there:


    - Apply a -50% on XP earned at the Regant bossroom. I mean come on, it's like a mandatory place to level up, no real threat from the 'melee only' mobs
    - Increase the XP earned in the Swamp/Graves/Energycave and other places people never go to. I don't know by what %. I would go around a random number and say 75%, but that value would be different for each one.
    - Drastic damage reduction on mobs to encourage further gamestyles to be taking place (This is to avoid things like shooting from far with beam weapons or tricking the mob so he cannot shoot you at all). Get rid of the insane spike-damaging mobs are able to pull off (Grim persi, DoY units, etc.). I am not saying make it super easy, I'm just saying things shouldn't kill us in 1 shot.
    - Increase the rarepart drops on hackable mobs. And why not add a % of drop dhance on mobs like Hopper or other mobs in the Wastelands. I agree, rares should be rares, but a 5 slots weapon is a rare thing, I feel like the drop is too low and players rely too much on clans so maybe a little bit more rareparts could benefit Trading/PvE and even PvP if people can gear up with decent things faster on.
    - Adjust the amount of XP rewarded per weapon type to make sure a balance is in place between the different types of weapon (plasma, beam, pulselaser, raygun, ..) and the Single target vs AoE experience.
    - Increase the boost of the PPU's damage booster to mobs, but shorten its duration (also change its frequency) to give a PPU an important job in teams and to actually be useful as both support and debuffer.
    - Monk's DEX, SPY's PSI, and CON level overall more accessible to level up (aka give that XP when the player is teamed, like for the PE's PSI levels)

    These are just some of the ideas I have. You understand the main idea is "More gamestyles, more places to do experience and get rid of the AI exploiting".
    Last edited by Neallys; 18-06-13 at 17:30.
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