Suggestions/Ideas for PvE

[Neallys]

Hi!


I wanted to do an entry here for PvE. I really do play Neocron for its PvP, but I remember back when PvE wasn't so painful. I remember the days when I actually had fun doing PvE and I would do it for hours chasing warbots with a libby, and it would actually work very well and be rewarding. But let's face it nowadays when you do some PvE you just get raped.

Ok, some people will actually tell me PvE is easy, and that's understandable, but I'm not especially talking about easy but more about fun. And the way I see people doing PvE, I'm sorry but anything but fun. I'll name a few hunting spots and their rewards:

PvE spots and hunting

- Firemobbing for techparts : If you stay in front of a Hopper with full Inq. set you can kill it and barely make it. I'm not even talking about the Maulers and their über friends, the Grim persi.
- Warbot hunting for techparts: Even with a full HDensity dura set and a PA you get owned within seconds
- Hoverbombers for techparts: Don't even get me started, all you see is the light at the end of the tunnel, the blue one. Well actually it's a blue laser.
- DoY bots units for.. well, these parts you could sell in NC1 and now it's totally pointless (maybe drug recycling?): Hello, beam of light in your face and x-ray stacks of death.
- The Energycave (desert zones)/Swamp caves/The Grave: These places offer nothing good and the mobs there deal way too much damage to be places of interest.
- The DoY tunnels techs and illegals: The bots there just literally leave you no chance, other mobs have too many HP. 1st level not efficient enough to do, 2nd/3rd you need a PPU and wait for what's my next argument
- The Ceres Labs for WoC Disks: End-game cave, it's difficult but well, too much HP and I believe people do it in a weird way, myself included.


Alright, I named a few places and gave you an opinion, it is mine and you may disagree with it. Now comes the main argument in the way of doing these places and what it implies.

PvE/Hunting methods:

So a lot of people will say they can do these places easily, and you just have to know how. But here is the deal though, and I think most will agree with this, we are doing these places in a way that's not really enjoyable. I mean, Firemobbing, we hunt with laser beams and stay totally out of reach of the mobs there, Same with warbots hunting, we also use the hills to overlook the mobs and shoot it without it being able to reach us, any slight mistake of course leads us to have half-HP. Hoverbombers? Hell no one will approach these, they just two shot your PPU with the blue laser of death (and get bugged in top fo the trees where you cannot hack them), DoY Bots units offer nothing interesting, now I'm speaking a little bit out of knowledge here, their parts may be interesting for recycling purposes, if someone tried this, give me a feedback!

EnergyCave/Swamp/Grave, fascinating places to hunt, we could make something out of it, too bad it's totally not a place of interest, and way too much damage dealt to players. The Doy tunnels are interesting, I do solo the 2nd level with a Winding Argument like someone told me to, but really, it's like using walls to make the grenades bounces, it's smart of course, but mobs can't shoot you and it kinda feels like you are able to use that game mechanic only, it's not really fun to me. And finally the Ceres Labs, where I basically go in, go past first room, kill the unit in the way, click it continuously so it doesn't respawn, and nade/barrel the room without getting shot.


Ideas to improve PvE

I'm thinking, players currently have to hide too much and of course the use of a PPU is good but we definitely have to find another system because no one levels a PPU from the beginning (or some people do, but people will tell them to LoM APU pretty quickly). The way I see it is that we have a few weapons of choice when it comes to hunting and most of the time AoE for cave and Beams for outside world is the main choice. It makes sense but it's just you should be able to PvE with a PE libby, or a spy first love, and be as effective as if you were sniping with beams. My ideal PvE would be to use any weapon, and that I feel like there is a fight instead of hiding like a coward and take advantage of the dumb AI. I'm thinking lowering the HP and damage, but this can go through rewards also, if you take risks to engage combat in the swamp cave where there isn't even that much mob, get rewarded more XP than the bossroom where you fear nothing because the mobs only have melee range. I want variation in PvE, not the basic "Yo go to Regant Bossroom, it's the best". I don't want it to be the best place, I want it to be one of these places where I could go.

I really believe all of this requires very little work from the Dev, it indeed will need testing, but people are willing to do that on the testserver to make things go forward, because I have to admit it clearly, I don't feel the game is very fun to play as a newcomer. Now I can't say, been playing the neocrack for 10 years.

To me this whole risk vs reward make sense, we need to see something else and go somewhere else!

I also wanted to mention quick the rarepart dropping, maybe put more parts in the warbots (which also require hacking) and risky mobs? I know these weapons are supposed to be rare, but this game for now revolves too much around having a clan to get your things and such. Shouldn't be that way. I also wanted to mention Faid here, with whom I had similar idea for a long time: if you want to make something rare, then do it, but only play on aesthetics that will not unbalance someone who doesn't have that much time to play. PowerArmor that have different colors, whatever, people would hunt for this I know that for sure, and I don't think it's hard to change the colors of an item that already has its model made.


I think the game really need those changes, I honestly do. It affects both trading and PvP.

If you have ideas, please I would love to hear them out, people always come up with very interesting things when it comes to PvE.

[William Antrim]

Yes on all points. All of the stuff you have mentioned is totally true. There is not enough variation. We need more areas to go to but the hp of the mobs is not too much of an issue in my mind. It is the mob damage in some of the caves.

See Deus Ex's thread recently I think it was about Swamp caves. These used to be good for mid level players (/30 and /40) to go to and level in. Now noone uses them.


Personally I would start with all of the caves that noone uses and then half the mob damage in them (on the test server ofc) and then see how you get on with a team of 4 people or so. None of those places should be soloed and all should require a ppu (for the social aspect of bringing solo players together at least) and then go from there.

If there was an appeal put out to test widespread PVE on the game with a view to repairing some of the issues I would go for it right off the bat!

[eNTi]

totally agree. most pve these days is only doable where the ai is easily exploitable, like for firemobs, wbs, mc5, creeper caves. the rest is pretty much reserved for well prepared groups or solo droners.

i hate to bring it up, but removing the ppu from this game (test server ofc) would lead to a lot of changes that would benefit everyone. all mobs would have to be revisited in regards of damage. i know it's a long shot and i'm repeating myself, but i think it would REALLY help with the fun especially for solo players.

[The Red Guy]

Ppu requiremt for all caves make them clan only again. we don't have that many players, ppus and unsteady server populations.

It is way more enjoyable and fun with a team and/or ppu assistance. The crucial point should be that it's possible to solo but hard and time-consuming.

OP nailed the PVE situation mob dmg revamp and a decent (but naturally inferior to a ppu) healing/buff solution for spy/PE/tank/apu would bring back the hunting experience.

[DIABLO666]

I actually find myself more and more agreeing with enti on wanting the ppu gone, pve right now is impossible without exploiting or having a ppu so good luck doing anything without a big clan to help who always has a ppu on, hell even leveling you can't finish without a ppu really (well not without a lot of deaths or exploiting). And of course ppus I've found just make pvp more annoying as if your having a 1v1 fight a single ppu added will make it nigh on impossible to win, hell people with ppu support can go 3v1 against people without them (assuming a equal skill level).

I know its a hated thing to say but it would be so nice if the rez and anti buff was moved to the apu then the ppu done away with, it would make a proper pve balance be needed and stop the constant annoyance of a ppu turning up and making it pointless to fight as your enemy will be faster, stronger and more resistant and even if you kill them they get a rezz from a guy who wont die unless you get 2 or 3 people to help you.


As for general pve stuff aye it needs fixing, its a pain that the only way you can properly do pve to get rares or make money is basically by exploiting if you don't have a ppu to help you.

[Doc Holliday]

keep the ppu shit out this thread or you are inviting people to flame you and thats not what this thread is about.

Neallys you said it all perfectly. I totally agree. Nc2 changed pve and i never liked it. Its not fun. Pistols are a joke. melee is a joke. You cannot viably attack anything with these classes range. your gonna get bummed. properly.

Caves should require a team/ppu. Wastelands should not but it should be better if you have one.

DO NOT DRAG THIS THREAD DOWN WITH THE REMOVE PPUS BULLSHIT PLEASE ENTI. Its off topic and your asking for trouble. I also repeated myself but you need to get the hint.

[DIABLO666]

Please stop with this pistols are a joke nonsense, pistols have the woc pistols which are great and the ion to 1 shot legs, combined with the insane speed of a spy they are a more than viable weapon choice. RIFLES are a joke (and melee is indeed a joke), the only joke about pistols is that only the woc ones are useful.

[William Antrim]

Please stop with this pistols are a joke nonsense, pistols have the woc pistols which are great and the ion to 1 shot legs, combined with the insane speed of a spy they are a more than viable weapon choice. RIFLES are a joke (and melee is indeed a joke), the only joke about pistols is that only the woc ones are useful.

How do you level to woc with a pistol genius?

this thread is about levelling. You need to have viable solutions to level everything.... levelling with a pistol is a joke. He is right, you just look like silly now.

[eNTi]

DO NOT DRAG THIS THREAD DOWN WITH THE REMOVE PPUS BULLSHIT PLEASE ENTI. Its off topic and your asking for trouble. I also repeated myself but you need to get the hint.

it's not offtopic if its part of the solution. i don't really know why everyone is so resistant to the idea. why not TRY it? it's not as if there was no way to revert to the current state.

...and yes. leveling/pve with pistols is a very bad joke. the thing is just the insane damage which was obviously a quick fix for the abysmal ai of the mobs. the closer to the ai you get, the less important is it's behavior and only raw damage counts. maybe it would be a start (another dirty quick fix) to make damage from mobs scale similar to a redeemer.

[Load_HeavyLoad]

its not part of any solution in this thread its completely irrelevant this just illustrates how much of an idiot you are, we're talking about changing PvE starting with CHANGING PVE i.e mob dmg, interactions, behaviours etc

think of it this way - would it fix pve if ppus were removed and nothing else? NO

removing PPUs is overhauling the whole game so get that shit out of this thread

[eNTi]

its not part of any solution in this thread its completely irrelevant this just illustrates how much of an idiot you are, we're talking about changing PvE starting with CHANGING PVE i.e mob dmg, interactions, behaviours etc

think of it this way - would it fix pve if ppus were removed and nothing else? NO

removing PPUs is overhauling the whole game so get that shit out of this thread

removing ppus would be a big step towards class balance which is required to balance mobs properly. atm you always have to factor ppus and their imba shields into every equation, which completely removes solo play out of the picture.

you got a lot to learn if you think that changing pve has nothing to do with classes and their interaction with the world.

[Neallys]

Thank you for reading guys


So first of all, I'm not here to talk about PPUs in general, especially not in PvP. I know it's frustrating to run into a PPU-DPS duo in Pepepr and you don't have one, but totally unrelated here. And to be honest, you can't get rid of PPU in PvP, it's a terrible idea. But you can change it so where PvP happens is random and you don't know where it's going to happen (ie. Pepper-park 1) this would encourage less dual-logging and more more "action on the run". I'd be glad to discuss this in another thread.


PvE wise, PPU are necessary. As someone pointed out clearly and rightfully, Neocron is still a MMORPG and the need to team up in cave should happen. Currently, we don't have that. As far as I know, it is more profitable for a player to dual log in DoY tunnels or Ceres Labs and get all the loot by himself. It's a painful experience but the most rewarding. ow don't we want that people actually team up to do runs that are profitable to both?

I see these solutions could fit:

- Up the effect of damage boost, making the full-time PPU useful in these caves as he has to damage boost as much as possible. To force the PPU to be active, make DamageBoost last a few seconds (and that would actually be good for PvP as well, that spell lasts like ages)
- Decrease the mob damage. Ceres labs for example, now I don't know what would be the outcome of that in term of loot, but lowering the damage enough so you can actually stand a chance to face your opponent with PPU shields (I'm thinking like a CopBot firepower, just a bit higher, can't do that on your own, great with PPU support in the Ceres Labs)

The idea behind this is to think "If I have a PPU here we can kill two times faster the mobs", also a cave that you can solo but takes time (like soloing two Neocron Copbots for example) and you want the run to be slightly more rewarding if two players are doing this. This will give the teaming up thing to be positive instead of negative and a waste of time.


Outside world as well as cave, yes, I'm really thinking it's possible to roll a Melee/Pistol build without having to snipe with Executioner or Beam of Hell. Also, reward the player that will come to a specific area with more resist for that specific damage type (I don't think we need a separate system PvE/PVP. This would take too much for that purpose only, and this can be done by lowering the mobs damage).

As I said in the OP, I wish to be in any of these cave and be a good place to hunt at. If it's a swamp cave, then there are less mobs there, and they give stacks and hurt you from a distance unlike the Bossroom of Regant (seriously nerf the XP of that cave, it's like the cool place everyone needs to go to), and let them reward more XP per kill.

Outside world - I'm thinking any type of hard mob there should drop a techpart. As I said the pool is big, and new players are just stuck and need a clan all the time. I need your opinion on this as this might not be good for the trade (or might be better since people have more things, thus trading is more active? You tell me. Maybe change the stats on getting slots on a rare, like 50% 1slot, 40% 2 slots, follow that logic, this is just theory crafting. And make 5 slotters 10% or 5%. I don't know which value this currently has, or if it totally random). I don't feel like trading is that active.


I also want to add: DEX on a Monk/CON on characters/PSI on Spies Make these experiences bar able to be filled when you are teamed up? Would be so GREAT for everyone, especially new players.

[eNTi]

ppl keep saying that removing ppu is a terrible idea, but i have yet to see one argument for that to be true?

you can also kill two times as fast with another dd already. maybe even faster because you have less downtime due to the damage spread. we already don't need ppus for huge portions of pve and i'm confident that removing it completely would make balancing the whole game a lot easier in the long run.

you say that it's not fun to solo in pve any more... well guess what happens if you balance the game around either: solo apu vs group with ppu.

where should you even start to balance damage around that? grim persis already fire their fireballs on multiple targets so the only thing that differs in the equation is the ppu. which can do all sorts of crazy stuff to buff, shield and heal his allies. how can you possibly balance this? do you want to have fun in pve as a solo apu or rather only in groups with ppu support?

i suppose you could balance around a solo apu and then depending on players around mobs can spawn more minions and start to cast antis or something. is that where you want to go?

[DIABLO666]

How do you level to woc with a pistol genius?

this thread is about levelling. You need to have viable solutions to level everything.... levelling with a pistol is a joke. He is right, you just look like silly now.

Not really as he didn't specify in which way pistols where *a joke* so it was mearly crossed wires, you really need to stop trying to put people down all the time its a ugly way to be.

[Neallys]

As far as this thread goes, I do not see the point of getting rid of PPU. I get your ideas of getting rid of them and be self-dependent lke with a stronger heal (I assume that's where we are headed here), I still like PPU too much for the to get removed from PvE. It is a class, you both may not like it but people actually like to heal and shield people, and it works good with Neocron and its PvE. The support if they change PvE the right will be fun to play for other people.

As a matter of fact my opinion is they should up the XP a PPU gain when being teamed. His role has to be more important in PvE. The Damageboost seem the best PvE compromise. I get your point as it would make PvE something new like in Guild Wars 2 if I would have to name another example. But I just think the PPU role fits here. Their shields/heal system make OP wars really interesting for me, it's more tactical and people would get bored without them.

But to get back on the PvE system, the PPU role needs to change there as well. It needs to be more active. I fall alspee playing PPU in PvE.