Thread: Kamikaze Drones

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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    You're talking about 3 issues at once there. Of course one change won't fix everything. Come on dude. Think about it. To make droners viable they need lots of other changes. This one is a start.
    It may be a start, but its the wrong start. To break a class because you don't like it under the banner of "they will fix your other issues at soon" doesn't work. If they are to play with the damage of kami drones they would need to fix the other ones at the same time or before. Otherwise its like saying Tanks cant use heavy weapons anymore, cos we need to bring them down so people use melee. Or Spys can no longer use rifles or pistols cos they are to good with them compared to PEs.

  2. #17
    I am BlackMaze SilentEye's Avatar
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    To be honest with you, I wouldn't mind the Kami in int's current damage-form if I could actually see it approach and do something about it.

    Right now, the drone flight system is so bugged that you can't usually see them in their current location and therefor you end up blowing up without even seeing the drone.

    The solution in my opinion should not be a reduction in damage, however it should be so that we have the opportunity to stop the kami from killing us all

    Let us see the thing approach, let us shoot it fast enough so it blows up out of range.

  3. #18
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonssword View Post
    It may be a start, but its the wrong start. To break a class because you don't like it under the banner of "they will fix your other issues at soon" doesn't work. If they are to play with the damage of kami drones they would need to fix the other ones at the same time or before. Otherwise its like saying Tanks cant use heavy weapons anymore, cos we need to bring them down so people use melee. Or Spys can no longer use rifles or pistols cos they are to good with them compared to PEs.
    I would love to see things from your point of view but unfortunately I do not seem to be able to comprehend it sorry.

    Blatant exaggeration is just hot air and hyperbole dude. By your logic the brainport should not exist because there are too many problems to even start to fix one.

    You cannot start to make small changes to things if all you will do is go "omg there are too many problems".

    Each separate issue with each gun/spell/item needs to be removed from the game, inspected and thoroughly examined to see if it has a place in the game world in its current state. If it does not then it needs to be changed. Before these changes are released into the real world however the second part of testing needs to be checked. That is - how will this change affect OTHER aspects of the game. When 2.2 was dropped on us this second aspect was never fully thought through. That is why the game is the way it is. Less balanced than it ever was.

    Revenge drones are too powerful. Period. That needs to be changed. Sorry but it does.

    However the secondary and tertiary changes that ALSO need to be examined and possibly changed are the reason this thread is here. You cannot say - oh you cant do that because XYZ wont work. That is the point of discussing it. So instead of saying no dont do that it is a shit idea, how about saying - well hey if you do that then you do realise that Droners would need to have another weapon to be viable defensively.

    So then the constructive nature of the thread moves on to the PN drones and their apparent uselessness - all the while it remains constructive, polite and well mannered and not drowning in negativity, bitching and general snideyness.

    I am fully aware this is a controversial issue and knew full well it would come in for some criticism. However if you just say "this idea is shit because" then what kind of response do you think you will get. Those sort of posts belong in community talk not in the brainport.
    "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

  4. #19
    Uncontrolled Substance Dope's Avatar
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    To be clear, I'm not trying to say don't work on balance, I just don't want my one last resort gone while "other fixes" are mulled over. Putting this fix first effectively kills the class until further notice. (To me, PvE only is a gimped half-a-game.)

    I have always played a droner main, and not as a PvE player. If the kami's get nerfed and the others don't get some sort of viability fix, Droners become PvE only, and that's lame.

    So, if this needs to happen, ok, but first other fixes should be made with regard to targeting drones (as Silenteye suggests), and wrt general usefulness of the weapons we mount (so that kami's aren't the only option we've got.) Names showing, hiding out, and all that, well I don't even know where we would start.

    So, I apologize for just shitting on the idea, it could be necessary, but not until some other teeth have been given back to the droner class, 'cause kami's are our last one.

    For the sake of clarity and transparency, my current main hasn't leveled into Revenges since the restart, but heavy kami's have served me well this time around, and I don't know what I would have done in those situations without them. (Well, I do, I would have been killed, again.)

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    Revenge drones are too powerful. Period. That needs to be changed. Sorry but it does.
    If you are going to call my argument that you cant ruin a class just on the promise of one day they might fix the other parts, I demand proof of revenge drones being too powerful. Not anecdotes like "once upon a time someone killed me and my friends and their dogs and our house with 1 kami drone!!!"

    Yes I agree kami drones do a lot of damage (sometimes). If you go in to neofrag and use them at times I have had one explode on a spy doing 200-400 damage, other extremely rare times doing 600 damage. So what is wrong with this situation if you are complaining about balance? oh yeah, its hitting a spy... spys who cant afford large amounts of HP and resists. Do the same to a tank and he will laugh it off.
    If your going to say that type of argument than Wockit Launchers, Doombeamers, Silent Hunters, Ion Shotgun Cannons and all other guns that do high damage with low frequency need to be removed or damage lowered. Of course the revenge is the extreme of this with a technical frequency of maybe 30s - 1min per shot, rather than those listed above that have 2-4 second reload.
    However the damage itself does not scale with such a long "reload time" for it. So yes it may be able to do a good amount of damage, but with such a massive amount of time between you could have done 20-30X the damage using something like an Ion Xbow before the drone can even get back.

    Part of the problem is that health bounces. So what starts off as a 600dmg hit will then bounce back to 200 on a buffed player sometimes. The problem there comes from if a person reaches -1hp left then the character dies before it gets a chance to bounce.

    The other major problem is if multiple droners are working together or with good voice coms you can have targeted attacks or alpha (opener) / assassination (finisher) strikes. With multiple droners all targeting the same person of course he and anyone around him may end up going from fully buffed and full health down to zero. But the same can be said if you had 3 guys with silent hunters. Or more commonly APU / Tank combos barrelling and AOEing undergrounds. This happens repeatedly so that a person coming up from the UG will end up dead before he zones up if you have 2-3 apus using different barrels + maybe 1-2 tanks with doomys or whatever.

    EITHER WAY, as said I demand proof of the claim its overpowered, I want to see numbers to say that the drones do between X - Y damage. The chance on the drone doing the lower or higher end damage. Where does the problem exist in the game, is it limited to P2 or also Ops and warzones. Who is being affected, is it just the low health / resist classes complaining that it does to much damage to them, or are the higher hp / resist classes affected to.

  6. #21
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    Too long didn't read. Make your own thread if you want to discuss comparisons dude. This thread is here to discuss changes. Not to prove to you there is a problem.
    "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

  7. #22
    I am BlackMaze SilentEye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    Too long didn't read. Make your own thread if you want to discuss comparisons dude. This thread is here to discuss changes. Not to prove to you there is a problem.
    That's a little short sighted to be honest. You often post lots of text, critique or what not, and it's always very constructive and well received.

    The least you could do is do the same in return to other people.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentEye View Post
    That's a little short sighted to be honest. You often post lots of text, critique or what not, and it's always very constructive and well received.

    The least you could do is do the same in return to other people.
    Exactly. The point of discussion is to iron out an idea to find the best solution. The best solution isn't to hit it with a hammer and then fix the rest of the problems later. You need to have a plan to fix the whole bigger problem.

    Look at APU. How long since that got nerfed, and these "other fixes" haven't appeared yet?

    We don't need another profession destroyed completely. We need it fixed properly. That seems to be demon's point and it is a fair one.
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  9. #24
    Registered User eNTi's Avatar
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    i think the handling of drones is one issue, why pvp is actually a no-no for most droners. most real life drones have better handling as the nc wobble-bobble drones, who will bounce back on most invisible bounding boxes like they are gummi balls. even todays drones with multiple rotors can instantaneously change direction fly pretty high and have an all around good handling. this might be a new (different) world, but it's still the future and flying drones feels like swimming in glue with pinballesque bouncy walls.

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    Too long didn't read. Make your own thread if you want to discuss comparisons dude. This thread is here to discuss changes. Not to prove to you there is a problem.
    Have to laugh at this stance on the brainport...

    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim
    I would love to see things from your point of view but unfortunately I do not seem to be able to comprehend it sorry.
    Then when I try to explain my point or expand upon it the reply is basically TL;DR

    If you see my posts, yes most of them are long, probably to long for people with the attention span of your average forum poster who cries that either something is beating them so is OP, or they are beating someone else but that is fine and the people being beaten should L2P. However the reason why they are normally long is because I will explain things and frequently use counterpoints to my own arguments in the name of balance.
    You said
    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim
    Revenge drones are too powerful. Period.
    .
    I say that it isn't and expand on it to say WHY is isn't. I could of course just reply with "No its not!", but without the reasoning's behind why it is or isn't posts have about as much validity as 2 kids at school both saying "My dad could beat up your dad."

  11. #26
    Uncontrolled Substance Dope's Avatar
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    I'm not directly attacking your point, in that it's totally true that a quadrotor is a way more stable platform than an NC drone. That said, I I have no issue flying the drones and I like that it's a finesse thing. If only the guns did comparable damage, then being good at flying would matter.

  12. #27
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    I have absolutely no problem with your posting critiques demonssword. My issue is with your first and last paragraphs of your post. The first paragraph completely turned me off reading the rest. That is why you got a rather out of character snappy reply.

    Discussing cannons etc is just sidetracking.

    Presently kami droners can fire off several rounds at anyone they want (with no repercussion UNTIL the meatsack is found) doing decent damage and being able to kill indiscriminately.

    Yes when the meatsack is found they die in a few bursts, theyre spies after all. That is the inherent risk of playing a droner and there must be an inherent risk.

    A lot of the time the victim doesnt know he has been hit by a revenge drone however until that last "snap" that you get and a big chunk of health goes missing. By then it is usually about time for the second one to launch and therefore EVEN if you are a tank, 2 revenge drones is going to put you into some trouble.

    The droner (now on his third kami drone) knows where the tank is - will know where his own meat sack is also - and so will probably (if he is switched on) know where the tank is likely to be to threaten him.

    At no point so far does the tank have a chance of fighting back AT ALL.

    You can compare cannons and the like all day long but you have to look at this as an individual process. It is flawed in its process. The droner has very little risk vs the reward.

    I wholeheartedly agree with all of the people who say that droners need a viable weapon to use in PVP. I am fully with you all on that (Dope this one is for you) and I want to see PN drones and Raptors flying around the sky pking the shit out of people honestly. I remember days gone by on Jupiter when PN drones first got released. 3 droners held Jeriko OP vs a full team with ppus because they coordinated and dominated. It must have been excellent fun!

    Whilst this anecdote is just that, a story, it highlights an important facet of the game - fun.

    It was fun for the droners. It was probably not fun for the opponents.

    The droner needs a fun weapon to be able to use ALONG with a risk of getting found and killed.

    Revenge drones in my mind do not give that risk.

    If I made another thread saying make PN drones do the equivalent damage of a Healing Light and Raptors do the equivalent damage of a Libra and make Drone PVP viable I reckon all of you guys who love droners would be all over it like a tramp on chips, and rightly so. You would have your weapons back and you would have your classes that you love so much made more fun.

    That is the end I am trying to achieve with every single post I make here in the brainport.

    Balance the risk vs the reward and keep the fun for everyone, regardless of what side you are on.
    "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

  13. #28
    Uncontrolled Substance Dope's Avatar
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    +1 on that.

    (This board needs a "Thanks/No Thanks" feature )

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    Presently kami droners can fire off several rounds at anyone they want (with no repercussion UNTIL the meatsack is found) doing decent damage and being able to kill indiscriminately.
    TRUE
    Though the same can be said of a guy with a silent hunter, and they don't even make noise when they take a load of someones HP pool. You have to be HP watching to notice that.

    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    Yes when the meatsack is found they die in a few bursts, theyre spies after all. That is the inherent risk of playing a droner and there must be an inherent risk.
    TRUE
    This is especially true because unlike rifle or pistol spys they are unlikely to have PPU buffs on what allow a spy to take maybe 5 bursts from a dissy before they die, vs 1.5 without. So you have a risk there. If people can find you, especially in stealth then you are dead before you can even escape your drone and hit stealth.

    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    A lot of the time the victim doesnt know he has been hit by a revenge drone however until that last "snap" that you get and a big chunk of health goes missing. By then it is usually about time for the second one to launch and therefore EVEN if you are a tank, 2 revenge drones is going to put you into some trouble.
    TRUE

    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    The droner (now on his third kami drone) knows where the tank is - will know where his own meat sack is also - and so will probably (if he is switched on) know where the tank is likely to be to threaten him.
    FALSE
    The first drone hits its target, you will notice the hp drop and the sound of the explosion. The second drone launches and goes to target, at this point the target is aware something is going on. Probably also having a ticking heal going on him recovering health at 30 a tick (or whatever it is, I cant remember). 2nd drone will not reach target till a minimum of 2 seconds to draw and launch + travel time what if the droner is truly hidden from this tank will have to be at least 1 screen of distance away probably more or they will have appeared on local and the tank would have already known before the first drone appeared. So call the min travel time as 10-15 seconds if the droner is as well hidden as claimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    At no point so far does the tank have a chance of fighting back AT ALL.
    And the droner can only kill the tank so long as no healer is healing him, in which he can also choose to zone out to recover if none are available.

    Quote Originally Posted by William Antrim View Post
    You can compare cannons and the like all day long but you have to look at this as an individual process. It is flawed in its process. The droner has very little risk vs the reward.
    HALF TRUE
    Much like the lone target, as a lone droner he will not risk going for a hack in most cases, while a lone spy finding the droner while stealthing and pop the droner and hack his belt knowing that the droner will likely be in a hidey hole out the way of random passers by who will kill a person hacking in the middle of the street.
    Also the droner how ever minor it is has a cost attached to every attack he does. It might only be 4-5k crafting the drone + res and cst time, but that is still 3.5-4.5k more than any other class is spending on a kill, even if you have to throw 3 full clips in to your enemy. And before anyone says it, I know money is easy to get, especially as a droner if you PVE. I will however concede that the highest value items a droner will drop though are a few cheep drones, his PA or holovest or a stealth tool. None of which compares to a rare weapon or how long it takes to get some of the WOC weapons (not all of them though).

  15. #30
    Xpertz William Antrim's Avatar
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    You cant add healers into the equation to make your point. You lose credibility if you need to refer to the ppu that every player has following them around. Because plenty dont and you cannot add the ppu effect into a balancing discussion. It just mires it down into a whine about ppus.

    You cant quote something and then say it is half true while agreeing with the same point in your previous quote. That just confuses anyone who is not you.

    You cant talk about how a tank can run away from a fight because drones move faster than people. The tank in any other situation has the chance to fight back and potentially kill his opponent when he is attacked. Versus droners this is simply not the case.

    The silent hunter sniper has to be in line of sight and visual range of his target - but what is the relevance? comparison?

    Your last point about cash is truthfully a bit of a reach. I do not think anyone who actively pvps thinks about how much money they have before they go fighting, but I will humour the point and counter it by talking about the expense of the drugs the rest of us take to compete in pvp - which you do not need as a droner.

    Believe me when I say this. Drugs are more expensive than drones.


    My final point is to politely remind you that the aim of this thread is to reduce the effectiveness of kamikaze drones and replace them with a valid, worthwhile, working and fun alternative. For example the Raptor or PN drone.
    "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori"

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