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  1. #1
    Civil Servant Jack Slater's Avatar
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    Default Being a criminal (-SL)

    Since there is a lot of discussion about the changes of "-SL Effects" I had an idea when i read about the jailhouse and the opportunity to recover SL there. I like the idea of bringing content to the jailhouse but I still wonder if all those -SL people will just let one recover his SL without shooting him. They won't get more -Sl anyway...

    So how about a mission you can get there to erase some entries in your NCPD Files?
    Some Anarchy Breed or an obscure NPC will only offer the mission if you got -SL and completing it would set your SL to a negative amount that makes sense (I'm not too sure about the effects of special amounts of -SL). You choose which faction you want to work for and have their enemies as your objectives.

    For example:
    "Hey Chummer, you look like someone who doesn't care too much about his victims. There are people that might be interessted in your "skills". Don't get me wrong. No faction would ever hire hitmans! But why don't you tell me which faction you want to support if... and maybe I can help you get rid of some files. Bring some cash!"

    That way bad people can keep going on with their rampage but are still criminals and have to deal with the disadvantages of -SL. And if they choose to kill greens for the mission their SL will turn red while doing it when the amount of -SL required for a run like this is chosen well. So it won't be abused to kill greens nonstop without turning red especially when the price to pay is well tuned.
    Faction symp should not be affected since everyone knows what you do but there is no evidence.

    Can anyone think of a reason for a mission where you can kill any faction?

    Sorry if I missed some important point that would cause problems.

    EDIT: Please change topic to "criminal"
    Last edited by Jack Slater; 25-04-13 at 15:09.

  2. #2

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    Ok, so picking apart my posts on the other thread time...

    -SL people should be able to use some GRs. Any owed by their own clan / faction should be usable, as should any of the ones in un-policed areas like Pepper Park, Outzone and stuff like that.
    IF they restrict it maybe have them have to "hack" the GR like you can with 20 hacking skill and tool to be able to access it. This would be them doing the equivalent of being a small punishment and lore wise being them having to spend some time bypassing the security protocols on the terminals to "Hot wire" it.

    Something will need to be done to sort out people trying to grief others by getting themselves deliberately killed to stip people of SL. As suggested a 20second timer on damage caused is an option.

    Recovering SL could be missions as current. But maybe a Robin Hood idea could be implanted, so you are only killing the reach to give to the poor. So donating money could get your SL back up as you are doing it for the purpose of helping those who cant help themselves.

    1-2 new factions could and maybe should be introduced or allow people to just leave the faction system so become enemies to all other factions. So they are the pure criminal underbelly or hitmen who take any assassination / mugging / whatever job going. This would also allow people to pay the style of play they want where they want to kill anyone and everyone.
    Some might say this could introduce new mission types on their own terminals. We know that old epic missions had "kill a XXXX runner" missions so you could have them again. The trouble with this would be it could be open to exploit with people making characters to kill to complete the missions so would need to have something to block this.

    As I said there could be a vendor in the jail house or somewhere else that only low soul light people can go to sells 'knock-off' weapons and armour. So this stuff is almost as good as the rare weapons they are like, maybe rather than 120% stats they have cap of 110% BUT can only be used by people with between -100 -> -80SL. They will still drop, and will cost a bit to buy, but then at least they aren't dropping several million creds they cant earn on every death.
    This idea also works nicely as a bounty type of system as well. If the guns / PA they are buying cost them say 200k per one, they are dropping 2-3 of these items when they die. The person getting the items from their belt cant use them unless they are heavy -SL however could sell them to Yo's for 10-30% of buyers price IF they don't want to sell back to the open market.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Slater View Post
    Can anyone think of a reason for a mission where you can kill any faction?
    Evil super villain wants to have a distraction while he steals something important.

    Evil super villain wants to just cause chaos for the sake of it.

    Implant design / programmer wants to collect real life experiences from contract killers and psychopaths as their is a black market trade on people wanting to voyeuristically live these moments.

    CEO wants to eliminate the competition.

    Weapons / armour manufacturer or distributor wants to make people buy more of their stuff as they feel unsafe as the streets are full of people going around killing everyone.

    Evil Dr wants you to kill people so he can get "spare parts" for his surgical procedures.

    H.I.O.B (artificial entity bent on peace through the destruction of all humans) wants people killed and hopes violence will lead to more violence.

    TSU or BD or even CA want to have some murders on the street to make people feel more on edge so they can increase funding for security or charge more for protection.

    To get ahead in the faction your in you want to kill a few people who are getting in the way of your promotion. Same goes for someone else in the faction if they wanted to get ahead without having to snuff out the competition themselves but have the funds to get it done for them.

    Its been discovered that rival organisations have been deliberately sabotaging your promotion prospects, knowing that you could lead your company to greater profits or influence. Again works for someone else in your company being set up for a fall to get them out of favour with your company.

    And many many many more.
    Last edited by demonssword; 25-04-13 at 16:09. Reason: forever adding more...

  4. #4
    Registered User eNTi's Avatar
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    Default

    i'm not sure the changes were made to introduce a whole new criminal world to neocron, but rather to discourage killing of high sl players. i can see the possible abuse to create 100 sl chars to grief people into low sl and this needs to be addressed, but i fear there's not enough time in this world to implement all your ideas even though they sound quite intriguing.

    lore wise, i think most runners are already some kind of criminal. almost all epics need you to kill at least one npc from another faction and fulfill tasks that are more or less morally bankrupt or flat out acts of terrorism. going -sl is for people who like to be chaotic evil and are simply mass murderers for the sake of it. neocron supports this form of play style like no other game, but i think atm it is also encouraging it and this is going to change. if you want to be a low life scumbag killer with no mercy and no regrets you will have to deal with society (as corrupt and criminal it is in it's own right) trying to erase you from existence.

  5. #5

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    The counter point for some of this I guess is also IF negative SL will have a penalty of having to take an in game "time out" while you recover. They also need to make positive SL decay. So those who just did enough missions to cap off are no longer immune to having to never do a stupid mission again cos they cant kill anyone themselves. So they equally have to do something to keep in such high esteem and keep those locks on their belts so tight.

  6. #6

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    Just wanted to add that playing the game as a criminal has basically been removed as a play style after years of carebears whine. It is an awesome way to play and until the rules change Ill be on a Kami Droner protesting at OP wars and fight zones.

  7. #7
    Erik Reed on MARS DR REED's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arista Barret View Post
    Just wanted to add that playing the game as a criminal has basically been removed as a play style after years of carebears whine. It is an awesome way to play and until the rules change Ill be on a Kami Droner protesting at OP wars and fight zones.
    The only whining now is coming from ganking players because the SL system has consequences it should have. Well done with this patch.

    What's the problem ? If you want to be a criminal then you should be treated as one , right ? How can you assume that you can after killing another person/char (^^) you can drink a cup of coffee on the market place ?

    Reed

  8. #8
    für einen freien Geist Deus Ex Machina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arista Barret View Post
    Just wanted to add that playing the game as a criminal has basically been removed as a play style [...]
    Nope:

    - Join Tsunami or
    - Join Black Dragon
    - Have no negative SL
    -> You are a criminal, happy live style

    Viewed from the CA another choice is given:
    - Join Twilight Guardian
    - Have no negative SL
    -> You are a criminal, happy life to you

    Negative SL means you are a TRAITOR. You betrayed your faction by killing loyal people inside it. Might be you want to work for another faction, but you didn't announce it to them, and they are suspicious of people that betray others - they don't want them either.

    CRIMINAL <> RED SL

    If someone wants to play Red SL - fine with me, but when their shallow excuse is "I want to be a criminal" its really a bit ridiculus.
    I may not agree
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  9. #9

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    Big talk from guys who dont play with red SL. Let me break it down for you...Consequences yes, but they are so harsh you cannot do it viably without a Kami Droner. So this is what you have. Killing one neutral guy in the "wrong" place might cost you -50 SL. And what do i have to do to get that back? I have no choice but to play as a carebear or go -100 and stay there. One bad zone sync and all your shit is gone. Theres no fair way to bring it back up. This ruins play styles and causes otherwise good players to quit the game. You cannot force, by consequences, people to play how they do not like. You must allow all players their own niche with acceptable rewards/penalties.

  10. #10

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    As said, people who want to play the indiscriminate killer need to be able to leave the factions system completely, or have one that allows all other factions to be red to them.
    The random hit on a neutral or allied player, even if you hate them is to high penalty for accidently hitting them. Or the people who grief by hugging players or enemy factions so that you will accidently hit them. Or some git who starts hitting you with his 30/30 knowing he cant kill you unless you don't fight back, but if you kill him you are the one to get punished.

    Like I said before SL needs to recover and have alternate ways to help you recover. BUT high SL needs to decay, so once you have done your good deed for the decade, you cant just hold that up as a "I was good once upon a time so I'm still good".

    Another thought that just came to me is to be able to bring back the faction leaders voting thing. And then the leader of the faction could choose who their faction wants to be allied, neutral or enemy to.

  11. #11
    Registered User eNTi's Avatar
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    Default

    as always it's the players who want to grief who cause issues. at the moment it's that way, that if you take out the le you are basically saying: i want to start a fight, so come at me! there's no reasoning with certain players they will just trash talk you into leaving the game for being bad at pvp, when in reality, all they did was stealth, run behind you, kill you with a dissy, stealth again. i've seen this happening where small groups do nothing but ravage the sectors attacking anything and anyone who was stupid enough to take out their le. unless we get those people under SOME control there's no reason to take out your le and that's why there need to be harsh consequences for -sl players. people who complain about the changes are most likely the same people that constantly want to gank everyone all the time, for no reason and who also cry the loudest to remove the le from the game.

    it's all well an fine to talk about limiting play styles of people if they can't use their "power" with reason. killing for the sake of killing most of the time is just fun for one side of fight.

  12. #12

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    I knew it would come to this lol Gankers whining about their viability!

    Dont they have all of OZ8 for them to have housing, vendors and gambling; have fun in the middle of no where ganking!

  13. #13
    Registered User Strife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Norris View Post
    I knew it would come to this lol Gankers whining about their viability!

    Dont they have all of OZ8 for them to have housing, vendors and gambling; have fun in the middle of no where ganking!
    Thank you for your contribution to Brainport.

  14. #14
    Uncontrolled Substance Dope's Avatar
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    In my opinion, playing as red SL isn't playing as a criminal, it's playing as an "Evil" or an "anti." SL rules are for punishing those that are playing outside of the intended rules of their faction. They're "anti-grief" rules - not in game "anti-criminal" rules.

    To me, playing as a criminal is what the two city gangs (TS and BD) and to a greater extent the two "terrorist groups" (TG and FA) are about.

    The thing is, when this was originally designed, the "big city" factions would be terrorized in the slums of NC, and the rules (including the lack of a game-wide LE) created incentives for BD and TS players to fight each other, and to mess with city faction players in their 'hood. It *also* created incentives for the TG and FA to fight/gank/w.e in PP, the OZ, and throughout the wasteland as well. Thus for those that "wanted to play the criminal" there were many rule supported avenues. There were places to "go kill folks", and a game-sanctioned way to go about it.

    However, the current LE rules and changed zone/warzone etc. designations have changed this. BD and TS are now only thematically different from the "upscale" facts, and do not represent a different playstyle as they used to.

    Back to the point, though, the SL system was built to ensure that no-one would play strictly to grief, by killing players randomly (as a psychopath) or in areas where combat is permitted, but sanctioned (*though I have a design issue with that, fwiw, see below.)

    Basically Red SL (and the sanctions applied) are intended to be an incentive not to act a particular way that is allowed for the sake of RP. Red SL folks are supposed to be pariahs, that suffer by being instant targets for cops, not being allowed to use city services and safeties and all that. The equivalent of mutants and A-Breeds and bums. Made red so that *anyone* can treat you as a mob, as that's what you've chosen to be.

    *If combat isn't to be allowed, it shouldn't be allowed at all. There should be two types of zone, not many. "PvP enabled" or "PVP disabled" What message is being sent to a player by "You can fight here, but you will be punished if you do"?

    The incentive should be on fighting in the areas where we *want* fighting to occur (koff*notPlaza*koff) and on fighting the enemies we *want* people to fight. This is more clear when it is "I can draw a weapon here? OK that means unsafe." situation - in short, PvP enabled or disabled (drop that weapon!), no weird middle ground. Copbots are a non-issue, either they exist as hazards that are fun to dodge or subvert, or they're not there at all, for theme. Pepper Park is fine for PvP, even with some Cops.

    If we must, new clan war functions can allow for inter-factional combat with reduced/no penalties, but even that is subversive to the core intent of the game, baby steps, as I was reminded recently.

  15. #15
    für einen freien Geist Deus Ex Machina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dope View Post
    [...] to a greater extent the two "terrorist groups" (TG and FA) are about.
    FA? A terrorist group? Really?
    Sorry you made me laugh. I can understand that some might view it that way, but City Admin for example, and most Neocron corporations are not among them. Try the Crahn Sect if you want, they have a "little" bit of quarrel with the City Administration since they have been kicked out be Reza. And with most of the corporations that support the CA.

    Hmm unless you are from Tangent, then I know where the propaganda comes from, seem to be the corporate motto.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dope View Post
    *If combat isn't to be allowed, it shouldn't be allowed at all. There should be two types of zone, not many. "PvP enabled" or "PVP disabled" What message is being sent to a player by "You can fight here, but you will be punished if you do"?
    Its simple: The message is: Here you can fight, but your actions are watched. You fight your enemies, and in most zones noone has qualms about it. You fight your allies - and you get tagged a traitor. And there are different other zones. There are some I don't understand (For example the two different ones, where in one you can lose Soullight and in the other Faction Sympathy, I think), but on the whole they make sense . You are allowed all actions outside of a safezones. But from your factions point you are not supposed to do some of them.
    So it can't be a zone where you cannot fight, since you are allowed to fight - just needs to be the right people.
    I may not agree
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