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  1. #1

    Question LE & Vehicle Protection

    The events were fun, but my concerns about the recent changes span the last few test patches, not just the most recent one.

    First, I applaud the idea of making it possible to buff and cast beneficial spells upon LE'd players even if you lack one. This is a nice change that is welcomed and long awaited, particularly as I tend to be a PVE-Only player myself. But then, at the same time it seems that now anyone can destroy anyone's vehicles wantonly and freely despite who owns them, LE or not? That just feels to me like development is confused about what direction you want to go with this, to be honest.

    It makes zero sense to me to make vehicles, which are rather expensive (yes, they are, despite the devaluation more experienced players start putting on money) destroyable by anyone at any time; Especially taking into consideration that the newer players joining us in droves lately, who prefer to keep their LE's in more often than not, tend not to be able to afford them very often. In my opinion we should instead focus on fixing the bug with the rhinos that allows that to happen in the current retail version, and make it IMpossible to destroy LE user vehicles entirely instead.

    Unless of course someone can demonstrate a truly valid reason for new or poor players to have their hard earned vehicles go up in smoke because some jerk felt particularly malicious or trollish at the time? I don't really see that happening though. :/

    Or perhaps I just misread the patch notes? Hopefully that's the case.
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  2. #2

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    You read the notes correctly. We're still waiting for the dev explanation on this matter.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faid View Post
    You read the notes correctly. We're still waiting for the dev explanation on this matter.
    In regards to the vehicle issue, the change was deemed the most acceptable for the time being.
    We fully understand this makes mid to high level vehicle use/farming less viable for LE'd players and we are of the opinion that this is a moderate and thus acceptable drawback.
    After all, the Wastelands are a dangerous place.

  4. #4

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    Could you please explain the reasoning for the change though? It's a drastic change and I think the community should at least have it explained to them as to why such a change is to occur.

  5. #5

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    Judging from Mokoi's post it's because of the bug with LE'd gunners being able to attack player vehicles. This is just the only "fix" they could do right now, hopefully it's temporary until a real fix can happen.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faid View Post
    Could you please explain the reasoning for the change though? It's a drastic change and I think the community should at least have it explained to them as to why such a change is to occur.
    There are a number of different constellations to take into account:

    Vehicle with LE driver/passenger and LE gunner
    Vehicle with LE driver/passenger and non-LE gunner
    Vehicle with non-LE driver/passenger and LE gunner
    Vehicle with non-LE driver/passenger and non-LE gunner

    Any ruleset for their interplay that involves a state where the vehicle is immune to damage, makes possible abuse.
    This is especially true for any ruleset that allows players to switch between LE/combat-mode in an instant by merely re-seating.
    It is however also true when the state is always that of immunity (e.g. LE VHC cannot take damage and cannot be entered by non-LE), as you can grief other simply by blocking loot.

    We wanted a clear ruleset where no abuse can occur.
    With vehicles being subject to damage in any constellation and LE players being locked out of PvP, this is the case.
    It is the players sole choice to be able to fight for his vehicle or enjoy the godmode privilege provided by the LE.

    The problem I see here is of a different kind:
    Vehicles should not be too easily ganked by common firearms and should certainly have a fair chance to prevent the fait of destruction - be it through combat or fleeing.
    This is not something that applies to the LE drivers only.

  7. #7

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    SO LE'd players should be able to shoot vehicles as well then right? As it stands now UN-LE'd people can damage LE'd Vehicles with no recourse for the LE'd vehicle to shoot back.

    How can the LE'd person fight for his vehicle? They currently cannot shoot back. So am I to understand that you guys are going to make it so everyone can shoot any vehicle regardless of LE status - to make things fair across the board? To prevent any abuse.

    Because as the patch stands now there is a ton of abuse against the LE'd vehicle.

  8. #8
    i carry a laaaazer......blade gstyle40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoi View Post
    There are a number of different constellations to take into account:

    Vehicle with LE driver/passenger and LE gunner
    Vehicle with LE driver/passenger and non-LE gunner
    Vehicle with non-LE driver/passenger and LE gunner
    Vehicle with non-LE driver/passenger and non-LE gunner

    Any ruleset for their interplay that involves a state where the vehicle is immune to damage, makes possible abuse.
    This is especially true for any ruleset that allows players to switch between LE/combat-mode in an instant by merely re-seating.
    It is however also true when the state is always that of immunity (e.g. LE VHC cannot take damage and cannot be entered by non-LE), as you can grief other simply by blocking loot.

    We wanted a clear ruleset where no abuse can occur.
    With vehicles being subject to damage in any constellation and LE players being locked out of PvP, this is the case.
    It is the players sole choice to be able to fight for his vehicle or enjoy the godmode privilege provided by the LE.

    The problem I see here is of a different kind:
    Vehicles should not be too easily ganked by common firearms and should certainly have a fair chance to prevent the fait of destruction - be it through combat or fleeing.
    This is not something that applies to the LE drivers only.
    wait........WHAT?

    "you wanted a clear ruleset where no abuse can occur" so eliminate a minor abuse by opening up a bigger can of worms :/
    and oh by the way, its not just le'd people who block loot. i can see it now, if the le'd guy wants to level with his vhc he has to leave because 9 times out of 10 some un le'd douche bag is gonna start shooting his vhc. and your examples were with all gunner vhc's. what about quads, hovertechs, barbie car, and gliders? this is all a movement to push people to remove the le. im for pvp, dont get me wrong, but im MORE for fairness and this IS NOT fair. one can shoot, the other cannot.....abuse WILL occur!
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  9. #9

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    I have to agree with this, it seems like really the wrong way to go about solving this 'problem'. And "The wastelands are a dangerous place" just sounds like a handwave to me.

    I mean just last week there was a HUGE argument in global chat because some jackass destroyed some newbies' Rhino that they pretty much just spent all their money on and were out leveling with and trying out. The one who destroyed it? Openly admitted he just did it to troll the newbies, just for the hell of it because he felt like it.

    So a couple innocent people get victimized by some ahole because they were driving the one vehicle it was possible in. Now we want to make it possible in anything? ....Are you serious? :/
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  10. #10
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    I think Mokoi is absolutely right. Wanna go rhinoing and killing lots of high level mobs in dangerous areas? Get your LE out and go for a ride.

    It is really that simple.

    And it's not like that there are no other possibilities for LE'd players to level.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoi View Post
    [snip]
    The problem I see here is of a different kind:
    Vehicles should not be too easily ganked by common firearms and should certainly have a fair chance to prevent the fait of destruction - be it through combat or fleeing.
    This is not something that applies to the LE drivers only.
    This, is something I very much agree with and is the much bigger issue. If vehicles didn't take so much damage from regular firearms then the changes that all vehicles regardless of the drivers LE status would not have such a big impact.
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  12. #12

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    As was previously announced, a proper statement on the changes regarding LE & vehicle use is being prepared.
    The above marks my personal understanding of the situation and is not exhaustive. I would suggest to sit tight and wait for the broader picture to be laid out.

    Just know that your feedback is not ignored, but receives the attention it deserves.
    So if you have _new_ aspects to add to the debate, please do.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokoi View Post
    As was previously announced, a proper statement on the changes regarding LE & vehicle use is being prepared.
    The above marks my personal understanding of the situation and is not exhaustive. I would suggest to sit tight and wait for the broader picture to be laid out.

    Just know that your feedback is not ignored, but receives the attention it deserves.
    So if you have _new_ aspects to add to the debate, please do.
    I truly want to thank you for this. I can't tell you how much I feel like the community is shunned from important decisions that are being implemented by the DEVs. Your posts (whether I disagree or not) are what most people want to see in the Brainport forum. It's ideally the place where community can provide feedback and the DEV team can respond. So again, thanks!

    Now for the topic on hand..
    I agree with you Mokoi in respect to small arms damage against a tank, which is outright the problem. The fact that a rhino(a tank) will deal ~420 damage to a firemob of 120/120 rank, gets out-done by a Creed (a rare HC cannon) ~600 damage to a firemob of 120/120 rank. In other words, if I were to go leveling in a rhino, small arms, such as the Creed will completely destroy my rhino in a matter of no time. Is that a problem? Yes. Will it be abused if the vehicle implementation takes place? Yes.

    Do I feel as though this is the issue that needs to be addressed because of this implementation? -No. I feel that once again you're dropping the ball from a perspective of a new player. [OT] Neocron gets new players and returning players every day. Why cripple their ability to have a fair chance at leveling or even getting the "Rhinoing" experience.

    As everyone pointed out in this thread, as of now, LE'd people are already at a disadvantage. To say that the "wastelands are a dangerous" place is like beating up an already dead body. We know that wastelands are dangerous because the mob damage is out of line. The fact that UN-LE'd people make the wastelands even more dangerous is basically a Kidney Shot to an LE'd person leveling, even worse if they're a new player.

    @Nabbl the thing is, with the increase in population, cutting down potential areas to level for LE'd players doesn't help ANY side (whether its LE'd or NON-LE'd). Think about it. Non-LE'd players are typically the ones complaining about how nobody takes out their LE. They complain about the "carebears" and what not. IF you were to minimize the leveling areas for LE'd people, it would take LE'd people even LONGER to level up to PvP standards, and thus, create a LONGER wait for Un-LE'd players complaining about the lack of fights. If you're still not understanding.. Imagine a brand new clan with returning players who haven't played NC in years. Most of the time, these people will be leveling with an LE'd chip in their head because "after all, the wastelands is a dangerous place". These LE'd players need leveling areas. The obvious fact that leveling places are being "fixed" are actually making it harder for people to level already. What this does is push players into certain areas which are do-able and "efficient" (i.g. Regants Legacy). So instead of promoting the idea of lesser places for newbs/LE'd players to level, you should be doing the opposite in order for people to eventually take their LE's out.

    Furthermore....
    @Mokoi
    Just yesterday I experienced the total opposite of what you said about godmode privilege. A member of a prominent CityAdmin clan who often are known for posting on these forums attacked my Rhino. The only godmode privilege I was experiencing was the fact that he was the superior person because he could blow up my vehicle. This person who was hunting in a popular zone H_12 started shooting at my rhino. Mind you, this is my first DAY ever of rhinoing on Titan (I wanted to take advantage of double xp). I enter the zone, 2 minutes later this guy is shooting my rhino because he DIDNT want me in the zone. He felt like I was stealing his mobs. Immediately as he starts shooting, I can do nothing but ask him to stop shooting me. Sure Wastelands are a dangerous place, the imbalanced mob damage makes it a dangerous place. The fact that I have to worry about greedy people who want to hog the zone is something that seems unfair. He had a godmode privilege simply because all I could do to defend myself is using the English language, in which case, I was lucky he knew this. I brought up to his attention that there are people like him which make the community SO TOXIC. He felt threatened that I was going to steal HIS zone/mobs (last I checked, your name isn't attached to these mobs) proceeds to shoot me without asking any questions. Just shoots me because Neocron has become "Shoot first, care later". What he ended up saying to me was "It's not like it matters, its not like you can't repair it", to which I responded: "Dude I don't have the resources to repair it, so would you please stop shooting". Notice the underlined. Most people who arn't playing the game 24/7 or for other reasons, don't have $$$ or time, don't have the ability to just say "oh sure, blow up my rhino, i'll just buy a new one". I was thankful and appreciative that he stopped shooting me soon after. The point is, the Wastelands are dangerous already (my Rhino eventually blew up an hour later because I was zerged by Grims (3x)/Hoppers/Reapers/TerrorMaulers)... The point is, there are plenty of other people in my situation who are LE'd levelers. Who go out to the wastelands in hopes of being able to level to the point of one day removing the LE. The DEV team should be balancing the game, not making it one-dimensional.


    EDIT-----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Solanox View Post
    So a couple innocent people get victimized by some ahole because they were driving the one vehicle it was possible in. Now we want to make it possible in anything? ....Are you serious? :/
    Solanox it's unfortunate that if they go through with this vehicle implementation, the in-game chatter may be filled with even more arguing. It may even have less of it since it may make people leave the game.

    LE'd people are being victimized, how is that in anyway balancing the game or bettering the community?
    Last edited by Gunshifty; 14-03-13 at 17:35. Reason: Adding on
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  14. #14
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    As Mokoi said, making LE'd vehicles destroyable is the best solution at the moment.

    Everything else is a complicated ruleset and difficult to implement. Just try to think about all the rules and possibilities and you will see it yourself. Mokoi already wrote down some of the possibilites in his post that would have to be considered.

    In the end this example shows again that Neocron was developed primary as a PvP game and the LE was later added to protect smaller runners while they were leveling.

    Stretching the LE to be a "god mode" was never intended and therefore it will be very difficult to implement this afterwards. To have open PvP and pure PvE players on one server will always create a conflict.

    Regarding our situation with a small team and virtually no money for NC's development we will have to compromise.

  15. #15

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    This is no compromise it's an outright exploit against LE'd vehicles. UN-LE'd people can shoot and destroy something that cannot shoot or destroy them back. It's an exploit and it will be abused as an exploit. This is a horrible idea and it's only going to screw things up way more than they already are.

    If the Devs cannot see the problem with this change then I fear we are in for more trouble than we know. I guess it's back to typical KK behaviour. sigh

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