[T#181] Testserver Patch Discussion

[Dribble Joy]

Non-LEed players run this risk all the time. Why does making this change kill the number of vehicles? I thought the community wanted less reasons to remain LEed.

(Yes, the viability of vehicles needs to be looked at, but that is a separate discussion.)

[hatmankh]

Less reasons to remain LE'd, this is fine, we can have a discussion on this.

Making the LE useless for vehicles? That's not less reasons that's completely defeating the purpose of having the LE to begin with. I'd honestly rather they just removed the LE from the game entirely than this, I'm not even joking.

Last I checked if you could shoot and damage something and it couldn't damage you back thats an exploit. I guess the Devs are promoting this particular exploit. Why stop at vehicles? Why not make it possible for UN-LE'd people to shoot and damage LE'd people and keep so the LE cant shoot back. Makes sense with this line of thinking, unless you guys can't figure out how to fix the initial bug, then this makes perfect sense. It's not a bug it's a feature

This. Sums it up perfectly.

[Doc Holliday]

This is what I vote for. To me, this makes the most logical sense.

If you would like it nicely laid out, this is what I think:

-Having an LE in makes it so that you cannot shoot anyone whether it's an LE'd player or Non-LE'd player (this same exact thing applies to vehicles). Note: This is how the game is currently slated, Any person with an LE in their head can not deal any damage to those who are LE'd and Non-LE'd.
-Having NO LE in makes it so that you can shoot only Non-LE'd players, like it is currently in PvP guidelines (this same exact thing applies to vehicles).

To clarify: the law enforcer protects the runner himself (including his belongings, i mean why should someone who PvE's lose his vehicle to someone who indicates they wanted to PvP- since they removed their LE)! And it also makes sure the runner obeys the law. Which means having no LE in does not protect you from anything (the basic concept of Law Enforcer being taken out means you are essentially "law-less" or for humorous terms: lawless). It is as simple as that.

Go back and read my post. The one about the LE driver and Non LE Gunner going for a drive.

[hatmankh]

What we need is something similar to what we got with PPUs. LE'd players can't get in a vehicle with non-LE'd and vice versa, LE protects against players, same as it does on foot.

The line about "LE doesn't protect your belongings" is bullshit, by this logic, the LE only protects your naked body so non-LE'd players should be able to shoot LE'd players and ruin all their armour but do no damage to their health. We should also be able to steal everything from LE'd players except their implants via a new option in the right click menu, hey "The LE doesn't protect a runner's belongings".

[L0KI]

One of the main reasons I am so happy with this patch :

LE'd players that drive over the corpses of Grims until the loot becomes theirs. There are plenty of them around, and they all need their vehicles destroyed.

[Jodo]

One of the main reasons I am so happy with this patch :

LE'd players that drive over the corpses of Grims until the loot becomes theirs. There are plenty of them around, and they all need their vehicles destroyed.

That has always worked both ways. As an LE player I can't do anything to the un-LE'd when they do it. This has always been a problem and still is between Le'd players, even with the patch.

Perhaps certain mobs shouldn't unlock for other players. Anything that drops rares should stay locked for the one player who got the kill or even for the team.

[DR REED]

This vehicle/LE-related patch is very bad one.

Now vehicles (and with this content (!!) again) becomes worthless. Where former patches does make vehicles not as usable as in NC 2.1 now vehicles become targets of griefers which will lead to avoid them completely. Fire mob hunting for leveling and part collection will become not psossible anymore, therefore people will switch to use quad/rifle/cannons only because risk is much lower.

Lot of flaws can be observed here:

1. No one could escape attackers with a Rhino or so. This is unrealistic #1: runners are much faster running /zonig than vehicles. The often cited "bad cyberpunk world" - how realistic is this ??

2. One or two Runners easily can destroy a Rhino = a TANK with a TANK CANNON and this TANK could not harm them due to low damage and aiming. This is unrealistic #2 ?? Did one ever tried to make pvp with a Rhino against pvp-Chars ? Laughable. (and: the Rhino is one of the toughest and with some damage, take a look at the worthless combat quads, reveler or trikes....). Shouldn't have a Tank (!!) 100.000 HP ore more and shouldn't do his cannon 2.000 HP damage or more ?

3. Normally a pvp-specialized setup is always superior to any pve-setup. And people who are hunting with Rhinos do have pve-setups mostly.

4. The "LE-Runner-blocking-Corps-"argument is a bad one. How often is this happening ? I did not experienced this over years. And it is bidirectional: non-LE'd players could do this also.


I would believe that this will continue shifting gameplay more to the pvp-direction and away from pve content. Only result is that this will favoring grief play and flaming and will decativate content again rather than make content useful/ playable.

Reed

[Alduin]

Thanks to the people giving constructive feedback, this is very much appreciated (you know who you are <3 ). The idea of putting the anti-vhc weapons back to good use is a good one, but we need to evaluate it in more detail on the team.

Just a side remark: we have the possibility of changing the system to what was intended in 2.2, but we won't.

[EDIT]
And again I have to stress: this patch is only the beginning there are more changes to come, but as stated earlier we need to test those bit by bit.

[Faid]

SO the LE doesn't protect a runners property as stated by Alduin, why then does the LE prevent people from shooting said property? If the reason for LE'd vehicles being susceptible to attack is based on the LE's function to only effect the person not the property, why then can't LE'd people damage other property? You've seemingly separated people from property, therefor all property shoot be attack-able regardless of the LE status of who is shooting at it.

[Kame]

Faid... Common sense man. How can you defend your vehicle from a runner you cannot attack ?

Also a normal Neocron Runner is indeed non-LE. The ones with special satus here are the LE'd, not the other way around.

[hatmankh]

Kame if you mean the bugs with LE'd gunners shooting player's vehicles, no one is suggesting we go back to that.

Most of the suggestions in this thread seem to be very similar: Extend the LE rules to vehicles, it's very simple, LE should mean you can't attack or be attacked by any player. Not having a LE means you can only shoot other people without a LE.

The ONLY argument against this is LE'd players blocking things with vehicles, be that GRs, OP entrances or lootable corpses.
I would say #181's answer to this is not a fix, it's fixing one problem but creating another one*, there needs to be a real fix to the vehicle blocking issue, this clearly isn't it.

*Don't say being able to destroy people's vehicles and they can't do anything back isn't a problem, you can troll as much as you like, we all know like Faid said in every other area of the game being able to shoot something that can't shoot you back (safespotting, old drone targetting bugs, terrain bugs etc...) has always been considered an exploit.

This patch introduces legal exploiting, some people want it because of the vehicle blocking problem. Some want it so they can shoot LE'd players with no fear of getting shot back.

If we create more problems every time we fix something, we will be stuck fixing stuff for eternity and Neocron will never truly improve.

[Ghostface_Speak]

The idea of putting the anti-vhc weapons back to good use is a good one, but we need to evaluate it in more detail on the team.

Please make sure everyone in the Team understands that those weapons are kinda "Tank only" at this point.We all know how much people love Tank-o-cron since 2.2 but please try to create an anti-vehicle "solution" that is not limited to a certain class (a higher damage output while in the hands of a Soldier makes sense,tho)

[Jodo]

Thanks to the people giving constructive feedback, this is very much appreciated (you know who you are <3 ). The idea of putting the anti-vhc weapons back to good use is a good one, but we need to evaluate it in more detail on the team.

Just a side remark: we have the possibility of changing the system to what was intended in 2.2, but we won't.

[EDIT]
And again I have to stress: this patch is only the beginning there are more changes to come, but as stated earlier we need to test those bit by bit.

I've always believed in and tried to give constructive criticism but I hope you understand the widespread hostility towards the latest test patch. There are numerous ways that it negatively affects the game.
You keep underlining that "there are more changes to come". I hope this means that there will be something to alter and/or balance the vehicle issue. As you seem reluctant to divulge anything further I will have to trust that there are good reasons and that your vision for this is as well designed as the other changes to have taken effect in the last few months. I've given my feedback on the idea and won't be banging on about it any further, or at least until there are further developments.

Faid... Common sense man. How can you defend your vehicle from a runner you cannot attack ?

You mean like un-LE'd attacking a LE'd vehicle?

[Haggis.at]

The only valid (i.e. "fair") solution in this case would be that the LE'd player may defend himself/his property when attacked (and this limited to the attacking non-LE'd player so you don't shoot innocent bystanders by accident). So you normally can't harm anyone but when some idiot attacks your Rhino you may retaliate. Thus preventing senseless griefing (guess why every sane person rides a Jones car to distant caves/Regants... Because not every idiot can destroy your vehicle while standing there when you are PvE busy..) Unless you can implement such kind of "aggro system" it would be most unfair and I won't get my expensive rhino out of the garage until fixed (already lost 2 while syncing/leveling - this is getting expensive). And for you whining un-LEd: I won't remove my LE from my droner - you wouldn't like me doing this, believe me...
Just my 2 cents

[Kame]

You mean like un-LE'd attacking a LE'd vehicle?

Don't play us for fools. That reply is pure bullshit.
LE'd people have the means to defend their vehicles against un-LE'd.

Un-LE'd have simply no means to defeat an LEd vehicule.


Making LE'd able to attack non-LE'd is the worst idea ever as it not only opens the door for a lot of LE'd driver/non-LE'd gunner bullshit like we currently have to deal with, it simply makes it easier.


Really if you want to defend your vehicules against an un-LE'd runner, hire a non-LE, or take off the LE yourself.