Consequences for actions

[Dribble Joy]

As it stands, the SL system is woefully inadequate in punishing 'bad' behavior, especially as it doesn't discriminate between who doing what to whom and only affects the Copbot system. Faction sympathies have little or no impact on runner lives other than with your own faction.

Before I make any suggestions however, we should be aware that much of this is probably futile for the simple reason that alts are available. People can easily have 'good' backup chars to hunt, tradeskill, poke, buy, etc. and thus any consequences imposed on their 'main' chars are somewhat meaningless. I would prefer a single slot server, but that probably won't happen for a long time.

Firstly, Soul Light.
I say get rid of it. It's indiscriminate and unrepresentative much of the time.
The question of what Copbots respond to is somewhat linked to arguments about anti-CA runners being allowed inside the city (why wouldn't a Copbot open fire on a TG runner operating inside the city limits?), safezones and similar. Unless a time comes where anti-CA factions are not welcome in the inner city (I won't say which I am in favour of), I'd say set Copbots to fire when a runner reaches either -16 average in all symps or -32 average in CA-allied factions.
Reprogrammed Copbots would follow something similar based on the factions where they located.

The main part is Faction Sympathy, which as I see it needs to affect far more aspects than it currently does. Including but not limited to:

GR costs/access:

Dependent on both the symp of the owning GRs going from and two.
Going from a CA GR to a TT GR with low symp in both would cost you a lot more than normal.
GR costs on death would purely depend on the location selected.

At -32 (maybe lower?) in the faction of the destination GR, travel would be refused.

P1: CA
P2: PP?
P3: DRE
P4: NExT
VR1: BT
VR2: TT
VR3: CA
PP1: TSU
PP2: BD
PP3: CS
OZ: None?
DRT: NExT?
BD: CM?
Crest: Trader Union?
MB/TH/Canyon as you would expect.

As this can't be circumvented by alt use, this is probably the main way symp would affect people's lives.
This would encourage people to keep tabs on and try to increase faction symps, though it would have to be balanced to assume a certain symp level.
Symp gain in one faction should also cause a loss in one or more other factions to help prevent people 'abusing' the system with 100 symp in all factions (though perhaps this could be possible but extremely difficult to attain). Remove the auto-symp gain while idle. Of course, you could make it so that extra positive symp (50+?) has little or no effect on prices.

Vendor prices:

As with GRs, each vendor has an assigned faction. Symp with that faction acts in a similar manner as Barter.
Most of the shops are fronts for the main factions anyway. Faction HQ vendors would need 90 symp like FSMs.
Refuse trade at a given level?

Crytons (Tools): CA?
Crytons (Imps): BT?
A&W: TT
HEW: TT?
Medicare: PP
Brothers in Arms: CS
Boobs and Guns: TSU?
Fist Weaponry: TG? Depends on if they (Fist) remain in the city.
Techangels: FA? Same as with Fist.
Drug/Medical vendors in PP/OZ/Canyon: BD
Furniture/Real Estate: DRE/BD depending on location.
TH Traders: FA
ASG: NExT
MB: Combination of the above and CM or just CM?
Canyon: As MB but TG.
Yos: Trader Union? Dependent on shop location?
OP Vendors: Trader Union and/or owning faction?

Guard reaction:

Low symp in allied/neutral factions to cause their guards to attack as if hostile (-32?).

One thing that could be asked about all this is wouldn't it be unfair to runners in a given faction or another faction has an advantage in a certain area?
Well yes, but then we have to look at faction distinction (which is a matter for a whole raft of threads). There's almost no difference between the factions in terms of the way their advantages, disadvantages, style and themes affect game play.
TT are a weapons manufacturer, yet this doesn't give their members better access to weapons.

[Deus Ex Machina]

Interesting concept. I would definitely give it a try if it was implemented.

There are still a few things that would have to be answered if one wants to really evaluate the system. Because consequences should be ingame too at the moment, but they aren't really.

The points it really hinges on are:
-) For what actions do I get faction sympathy
-) For what actions do I loose faction sympathy

Since these are the problem zones now too, thats why the system is more or less without consequences.

If one wants to get rid of Soullight there are also the following questions that would need an answer:
-) What does influence Belt Security? How is it influenced? (Can you get an equivalent to "Red SL", were you drop more for example?)
-) How is "working against the intended system" punished. Meaning occasions were Soullight is in place at the moment to enforce outgame "rule suggestions" For example: At the moment you loose Soullight in dungeon sectors, even if you kill hostile runners. While I could live without it, it would need to be answered what happenes if SL is gone: Do you loose faction sympathy with your own faction? Is it just like any other sector? ...

I am definitly on your side when we talk about TG runners running around the city (Via Rosso, Plaza) unharmed. Or Tangents in Tech Haven. Or Fallen Angels near Black Dragon HQ.

One "easy" step in the direction of consequences might be to shorten the reaction time of Copbots. At most one warning should be enough, and two seconds to react (put the weapon away, but it should be in Voice AND text). You'll learn not to draw that weapon fast then. At the moment they react after your target is dead ;-)

[Doc Holliday]

Interesting discussion. I dont fully understand what the hell your saying with all the factions to zones relations but that could be my tired brain.

PS. this whole thing about TG runners walking round in NC. Well the last time i looked in a mirror I didnt see a big green/red/yellow box round my head with my name above it or my faction affiliation so why would a copbot instantly know who is who.

A certain amount of creative license has to be used. Assume for example the copbot has facial recognition software. whos to say the tg runners dont change their faces in some way to disguise this. along with fake ids etc if they get challenged. Neocron is supposed to be a huge metropolis and bustling with citizens. a few unsavoury characters will always slip through the cracks.

[Castr0]

This sounds really cool !


The next lines are just a thought :
When I start reading, I also thought you would be going to say that what define friendly, neutral or enemies factions would be the average symp of all runners of 1 faction toward another.
This would be just awesome I think (but it seems hard to implement) :
- for exemple if the average symp of all Biotech runners toward TT is > 50 then factions are allied.
- if many BT runners kill TT runners and loose sympathy then the average may go under 50 and then faction would become neutral

The consequence could be just fun :
- each time you log you have to check which faction is ally, which one isn't
- you can have an impact on the relationship between faction

etc

[William Antrim]

I would want automatic symp gain at every level if any of this was implemented. Idling the day is enough of a chore as it is if you happen to be bad, even accidentally.

[Netphreak]

This idea has me interested.
I would quite like faction/hq guards reacting to your sympathy with that faction. A simple change that would further emmersion and consequences in the game.

[Torg]

why not start right away with placing some 120/120 CA guards to plaza 1 (and other sectors)?

[Netphreak]

why not start right away with placing some 120/120 CA guards to plaza 1 (and other sectors)?

Not sure if you're actually being serious or not, but near CA HQ in Plaza 1 there should be some CA guards, not 120/120 though maybe 60/60 and outside the doors the rank get higher.

[Dribble Joy]

-) For what actions do I get faction sympathy
-) For what actions do I loose faction sympathy

Of course, I was thinking more along the lines of the basic principles, but it's an integral part of the system.

-) What does influence Belt Security? How is it influenced? (Can you get an equivalent to "Red SL", were you drop more for example?)

I kinda see two main avenues here.
Either base the belt hack difficulty on total average symp across all factions, or base it on the belt owner's symp with the hacking player. With the former, you can retain the multiple item drops.
Then of course there's the whole discussion about belts to begin with.

-) How is "working against the intended system" punished. Meaning occasions were Soullight is in place at the moment to enforce outgame "rule suggestions" For example: At the moment you loose Soullight in dungeon sectors, even if you kill hostile runners. While I could live without it, it would need to be answered what happenes if SL is gone: Do you loose faction sympathy with your own faction? Is it just like any other sector? ...

Maybe a symp loss in all factions?

Interesting discussion. I dont fully understand what the hell your saying with all the factions to zones relations but that could be my tired brain.

Generally what I suggested is along the lines of HQ in zone = GRs in zone 'owned' by that faction.

PS. this whole thing about TG runners walking round in NC. Well the last time i looked in a mirror I didnt see a big green/red/yellow box round my head with my name above it or my faction affiliation so why would a copbot instantly know who is who.

A certain amount of creative license has to be used. Assume for example the copbot has facial recognition software. whos to say the tg runners dont change their faces in some way to disguise this. along with fake ids etc if they get challenged. Neocron is supposed to be a huge metropolis and bustling with citizens. a few unsavoury characters will always slip through the cracks.

Similarly, how do they know someone has bad SL? If a player can tell the name, clan, faction and SL or symp of another, why can't a copbot? If it's simply a game mechanic for players, then what use is a copbot other than acting against drawn weapons?
(Not being rhetorical, these are questions about the nature of copbots and the game that need to be investigated.)

I would want automatic symp gain at every level if any of this was implemented.

Interesting idea. I'd probably say that symp in enemy factions would decrease as you leveled though, as you become a bigger threat.

[William Antrim]

Let me elaborate a little.

I would want ALL friendly factions sympathy to gain slowly. I would want Neutral factions to gain VERY VERY SLOWLY and I would want enemy factions sympathy to be LOST upon killing an enemy but GAIN allied symp and possibly some neutral symp if the neutrals were also enemy to my enemy. Neutral faction sympathies should only raise to 10 (the current limit) and enemy factions should raise over time even more slowly than this but stop at 0. (the enemy faction will have forgotten the transgression over time).

The reason for this is - my friends would like that I am killing my enemy

Neutrals may have an interest if it benefited them.

My enemy would clearly dislike it.

It would also - hopefully - allow for faction switching to still be a relatively painless process. We would have to swap THROUGH neutral factions more probably in the future but "faction hopping" would still be available (LE'd or not as these changes would not effect LE'd players) as long as you were clever about it.

However just because a player has a fall out with a clan in a neutral faction and shoots him he should not be tainted with hate by the entire faction.

Losing sympathy with an enemy or neutral faction for killing them should not be a severe penalty.

[Arista Barret]

The soul light system is broken and abused. it does not help New runners because they have no real soul light. when i am attacked by an enemy clan i am forced to retreat or lose soul light defending myself. this does not promote pvp and it only allows grief to be more important than the actual fight. being at war with enemy clans in my own faction has caused a downward spiral and resulted in alot of us sitting afk instead of doing what we love. If we had a working clan war system in game that eliminamed soul light losses it would be a much better game. We should be able to declare war on any clan of our choice with no agreements made but to end it mutually. Soul light is also lost too fast compared to the way you are forced to bring it back up. This needs balanced to stimulate pvp and also mildly protect the faction systems. Pepper park and alot of other zones should become more like war zones. We do not have to ruin pvp in favour of roleplay. We can still maintain a degree of roleplay all the while building situations to pvp.

[Cannings]

Please start punctuating your posts.

[Dribble Joy]

GAIN allied symp and possibly some neutral symp if the neutrals were also enemy to my enemy.

I would normally agree. However unfortunately people will abuse the system, I don't think gaining symp from killing players can really be introduced.

raise over time

I personally still don't know about this, though I am probably less concerned as with other areas. You could quite easily go afk in a safe zone/apt for the whole day while you are at work/uni/whatever.
Possibly preclude auto-symp gain in certain sectors?

It would also - hopefully - allow for faction switching to still be a relatively painless process.

Indeed. Though I am currently unaware of how easy it is (or isn't) as I generally don't switch factions. I don't think it should be that easy, but at the same time not horribly restrictive.

Losing sympathy with an enemy or neutral faction for killing them should not be a severe penalty.

No, considerably less than an allied faction. Though I feel there should be an impact of sort for any action.

OP zones obviously completely separate from this whole discussion (even though in RL they would be as (if not more) important than any other area).

The main aim of this thread/discussion is not necessarily to penalise people (as it can work the other way), but to give players a greater sense of the game world and it's interactions, a better feeling of being part of the environment they are acting within.