Discussion - Stealth tools for PE

[CM Punk]

Hi there,

I opened this Thread to ask what you think about the actual situation for PE's with the stealth tool. At this time, the technology of stealth tools is restricted to spies (there is just the five seconds stealth tool from Jones for PE's). I can understand the point of restricting it, because stealthing monks would be riddiculous. Unfortunately, Monks have higher intelligence than PE's, but at the current state, we alle know PE's are not that powerful:
PEs are underpowered compared to spys in terms of damage, runspeed and resists anyways, that's why I ask for rethinking one of a few rethinkable situations of the PE, the stealth tool.

The five second tool is in my opinion worth using it in P2 to stealth into sync, but it's kind of worthless in op fights, because it lasts just 5 seconds.
Just two possibilities of mine to work on that issue, I would be happy for other suggestions and opinions:

1) rise the stealth time of the Jones stealth tool.
Questionable, because the next stealth activator just lasts ten seconds. When there would be a rise of the Jones tool, the other stealth tools should be step up at least 5 seconds of usage up to stealth activator three; =
Jones Stealth (JST) = 10 secs, SA I = 15 secs, SA II = 25 secs, SA II = 35 secs, Obli = still 60 seconds ( jump from SA III to Obli is high enough, the durationof the Obli as well)

2) Invent an low-rare stealth tool/ new mission high-level-mission reward for PE's.
- in my opinion the better way, to open the PE's a new option of surprise moment in fights. The five seconds tool is barely enough for getting a surprise for enemies, because it lasts that short time. You are normally in sight of the enemy, as you start it as PE, and from that short distance you see that blue flicker very good, while the spy can use his tool from distance, where you nearly can't see the blue shimmer.
So inventing a new PE stealth tool with a stealth duration of 10 - 20 seconds would be a good option, especially for pistol using PE's who must come close before he starts the fight.
For that option, the stealth tool from Jones wouldn't be overpowered as starter item, but would give the PE more deepness for his fighting-possibilities, as long as the damageoutput of a PE, especially for a pistol-non-woc-pe without X-Bow is that low.

The rare-part-solution is imo not as nice as a new mission to get it, because you get the opportunity to create new content (new mission plus an item) and more pvp-possibilities for PE's. New content is always better than just a new rarepart-object, but a new rarepart object would be better than nothing

Let's discuss

[Dropout]

1) rise the stealth time of the Jones stealth tool.
Questionable, because the next stealth activator just lasts ten seconds. When there would be a rise of the Jones tool, the other stealth tools should be step up at least 5 seconds of usage up to stealth activator three; =
Jones Stealth (JST) = 10 secs, SA I = 15 secs, SA II = 25 secs, SA II = 35 secs, Obli = still 60 seconds ( jump from SA III to Obli is high enough, the durationof the Obli as well)

Nooo, do not make the Jones stealth last longer!
Even on my hightech spy (on Terra) with enough TC for Obli, I pretty much only use Jones stealth - and yes, that spy was ONLY being used at opfights.

2) Invent an low-rare stealth tool/ new mission high-level-mission reward for PE's.
- in my opinion the better way, to open the PE's a new option of surprise moment in fights. The five seconds tool is barely enough for getting a surprise for enemies, because it lasts that short time. You are normally in sight of the enemy, as you start it as PE, and from that short distance you see that blue flicker very good, while the spy can use his tool from distance, where you nearly can't see the blue shimmer.
So inventing a new PE stealth tool with a stealth duration of 10 - 20 seconds would be a good option, especially for pistol using PE's who must come close before he starts the fight.
For that option, the stealth tool from Jones wouldn't be overpowered as starter item, but would give the PE more deepness for his fighting-possibilities, as long as the damageoutput of a PE, especially for a pistol-non-woc-pe without X-Bow is that low.

The rare-part-solution is imo not as nice as a new mission to get it, because you get the opportunity to create new content (new mission plus an item) and more pvp-possibilities for PE's. New content is always better than just a new rarepart-object, but a new rarepart object would be better than nothing

Let's discuss

I wouldnt mind PEs getting access to a longer stealth though.
Honestly though. IMO the normal spy stealth tools should just be made available for PEs aswell.
Personally I wouldnt use a longer stealth though.

Longer stealth = Longer out of the fight = Less damage given.

[CM Punk]

Another option might be putting the restriction up to spies AND PE's. Maybe that's enough, but then the int must be go down, so at least a PE could use the Stealth Activator I without crashing their Dex- Imp-Setup, because the damage is right now less enough to other fighting characters.

I'm with you when you say a Obliberator doesn't get used because it lasts that long, I'm just using Jones Tool and SA I as well as spy to regain HP, get in distance etc, I guess just some seconds more would be great.

[DR REED]

Normally i am absolute favoring more content in NC, but this time a clear "no" to add a specific stealth tolo for PE's or increase the Jones tool stealth time. Stealthing should stay a unique ability for Spys only, otherwise we get an overlapping between this char types and the spy would loose one of his "USPs" (Alleinstellungsmerkmal, unique selling proposition).

Reed

[Torg]

i can see your point, CM, but i believe we shouldnt aim for band aid solutions for the PE problem but work towards a balancing concept in the future.

[Netphreak]

When things are sorted/balanced, CON has more importance again and weapons that PE's can use are viable again then they will be already in a much stronger defense position compared to a Spy even with only a 5sec Jones stealth.

[See no Evil]

I am playing a PE and I have been playing it for a while.

I don't think PE needs a longer stealth. To be honest, I'm usually able to escape near any dangerous situation (PvP) if I need to thanks to this stealth (and damageblockers).

The thing PE needs is weapons with more damage. The low TL weapons doesn't do enough damages compared to high TL ones. Every PE needs to get lot of +dex implant if they want to kill someone.
Lowtech PE have their damages reduced way too much compared to the resist/speed they gain.

If you look at the game at the moment, you will notice that every setup is oriented to get the more Base stat (dex, psi, str) to use the highest TL weapon they can.
--> The consequence being there are not many "exotic" setup like lowtech PE, melee PE or spies using weapon under TL 110 (revive the slasher spy ffs !).

[William Antrim]

PE's used to have a ten second stealth. It was taken away from them because it was OP. This was before the clusterfuck that is 2.2 balancing when PE's were among the best solo fighters. If the guns were fixed and with WOC and a 10 second stealth and high resists that they get already the PE would be seriously OP in the right hands.