Does anyone even want to play Neocron 2.2 if you could choose the version?

[Kame]

Nanites were actually wanted by many ppl because it made PPUs even more redundant in PvP.

People wanted to be able to fight without a PPU and they wanted to be able to compete with a PPU backed fighter.

Bullshit. The nanite are selfcast only and they only replaced the PSI based heals even though PSI heals are still in-game. The addition of nanites did nothing to PPUs.

[Dropout]

Bullshit. The nanite are selfcast only and they only replaced the PSI based heals even though PSI heals are still in-game. The addition of nanites did nothing to PPUs.

You are aware that spies actually can get better resists from nanites, than from PPU shields, right?
The only reason why noone is using the resist nanites, is because they take AGES to "cast" and only last for a fairly short while.

[gstyle40]

Bullshit. The nanite are selfcast only and they only replaced the PSI based heals even though PSI heals are still in-game. The addition of nanites did nothing to PPUs.

so im assuming you have never been debuffed by nanites? because they DO exist!

[Netphreak]

so im assuming you have never been debuffed by nanites? because they DO exist!

I'm not sure anyone actually uses them, or they work as intended.

[Dropout]

I'm not sure anyone actually uses them, or they work as intended.

Had forgotten about those.. I did play around with them at some point, but they just takes far too long to debuff.

[Ivan Eres]

Had forgotten about those.. I did play around with them at some point, but they just takes far too long to debuff.

Unfinished, like 2.2 in general.

[RogerRamjet]

NC players like what they know, and they know what they like. 2.2 was too much, too sudden. The game can move forward with balance, but it still needs to look and feel like NC (or more to the point, how NC used to). Even the change to BDoY, despite being whined about for years by a lot of the community, was too big a change for most.

NC has always held a certain appeal, which is why players always migrate back. Developing NC with that appeal in mind is the way forward in my opinion. It's never going to be the most popular game in the world, but the community and the volunteer team clearly love it.

[CMaster]

Yeah, the antibuff nanites just aren't really useful. For a start, actually landing a hit on someone with them is like trying to implant them mid-combat (and we all know how often that doesn't work properly in P1...). Then they get a great big 3-second warning of which buff will be removed at the end. While the resist nanites are useful, just so much of a nightmare faff to use that noone wants to.


It's interesting that over the last couple of months, this idea has developed that the changes of 2.2 were somehow the creation of a small group of forum members lobbying for their own interest, and forced onto an otherwise fair game. It's really not true at all. NC2 - 2.1 was monk-o-cron, in that monks were the best choice for almost everything. Solo fighter, team fighter, combat hacker, PvE farmer (tanks were useful in a couple of PvE situations, but for most monks would rack up the XP, cash and loot much quicker). Sure, there were some niches that only spies could do well, but the general trend was for ever more monk domination - especially as PPU supported APU required much less player skill to be effective than any other class.

As for 2.2 being dictated by a small core of players - it simply isn't the case. The demand for 2.2 was broad across the player base, (KK's original plan for 2.2 was new player/mob models). Participation on the test server was huge, although lots of people just wanted a chance to play with WoC gear and didn't leave feedback. However all the ideas, good or bad, came down from on high by KK. Player input was largley ignored, except where it caused major outcry (initially, implant damage caused implant stats to decrease. This was removed, but we were left with the bad, evil decimal implant system designed around this). Features like nanites went basically untested. You can see what was said, and just how much was listened to by going to the still existent balance discussion forums.

Equally, while there's plenty wrong with the way 2.2 approached the class balance, the big issue at the moment is just that certain weapons are overpowered. In early 2.2, everybody was a WoC PE or a Creed tank. After the burst weapon buff (which was meant to bring gats, plasmas back in), everybody was a Dissy/AK spy. Who has the best access to overpowered weapons is the determining factor in class balance at the moment, rather than anything else.

[Ivan Eres]

Equally, while there's plenty wrong with the way 2.2 approached the class balance, the big issue at the moment is just that certain weapons are overpowered. In early 2.2, everybody was a WoC PE or a Creed tank. After the burst weapon buff (which was meant to bring gats, plasmas back in), everybody was a Dissy/AK spy. Who has the best access to overpowered weapons is the determining factor in class balance at the moment, rather than anything else.

This.

If store bought weapons were as strong as the Dissy and AK many more ppl would fight everywhere.

The dmg curve shoud be flattened.

[RogerRamjet]

It's interesting that over the last couple of months, this idea has developed that the changes of 2.2 were somehow the creation of a small group of forum members lobbying for their own interest, and forced onto an otherwise fair game. It's really not true at all. NC2 - 2.1 was monk-o-cron, in that monks were the best choice for almost everything. Solo fighter, team fighter, combat hacker, PvE farmer (tanks were useful in a couple of PvE situations, but for most monks would rack up the XP, cash and loot much quicker). Sure, there were some niches that only spies could do well, but the general trend was for ever more monk domination - especially as PPU supported APU required much less player skill to be effective than any other class.

Whilst I agree with the sentiments of Monks (formula changes NC1-NC2 and the introduction of the Gaia Glove seemed to be key here, as well as the cynical attitude of larger clans), solo pvp was still very much viable for PEs and Spies (You must remember FETISH, an extremely good example of that). I had a Judge PE and a lotech TSU rifle PE, both extremely fun and viable. Sure they were no use at OP fights, but the PE is always going to struggle in that respect. PEs and Spies were excellent as fighters on the outskirts of OPs, picking off stragglers, but the practical 1on1 PPU/APU ratio killed that off. As a raiding class they were still excellent though.

Tanks got the bum deal in 2.1 (actually NC2 full stop), slow and underpowered (even slower when holy parad and no anti-buff) when faced with monk based OP teams. My tank was pretty much only used in NF, and even then he felt like an anachronism, a hangover from a better time (cry).

[CMaster]

Yes, but a blessed hybrid could win any given one-on-one (although after the heal nerfs in late 2.1, they were weaker). And even on my APU hybrid, I managed to kill most of the FETISH guys at some point (not something I could ever manage on my PE).

The interesting thing about that time is just how important drugs were. A tank would easily be able to take down a basic spy, and be pretty level with a basic PE as well. But a drugged spy was much, much tougher, and drugged PEs could get spy damage with PE defences.

I'd agree that one of the things that PEs and spies have always had going for them is sustainability, that makes them well suited for raiding purpouses. The Mr Jones patch especially really buffed PEs in this regard, with the TL10 heal and stealth. I might have used my APU Hybrid to hit up Cycrow, but for crashing the FA sector, it was always the PE.

What I was really railing against was this growing muttering (by people who clearly weren't there) that 2.2 was some kind of carebear conspiracy to defile the glorious Neocron. Which is so much bullshit.

[Kame]

EDIT :
Unfortunately for me, at the time 2.2 came out my forum account was banned and i never could input my comments on what was going on. I was forced to an 8 yrs hiatus on these forums.

Except for heal nanites, i think its safe to say that nanite use is disregarded by most, and also badly designed.

2.2 brought a lot of wacky changes, notably :

1.decimals on items
2.weapon cap changes
2.construction cap changes
3.armor type changes
4.locational armor
5.resist nanites
6.debuff nanites
7.weapon balance

Along with nicer changes :

1.new weapons
2.no more DOY
3.WOC
4.regent
5.new VHC
6.new skins

[Doc Holliday]

no offense to anyone here but i was quite intrigued by the trawl through the threads (including what i wrote about) on the forum thread. wasnt aware i was that active circa 2006 but hey i saw a couple posts by me. glad to say none of em supported the "balance" we have today. at least so far from what i read.

[CMaster]

EDIT :

2.no more DOY

That one wasn't even 2.2, it came like 9-18 months later?
And it's good in some ways, but also a bit of a let down in others.
The fact that people can now just fight each other in the city easily, seems to have killed off a lot of the wastelands PvP that you used to get (eg CRP raids, El Farid fights) that used to happen instead.


As said, I've got a feeling that the nanites only came in either right at the end of 2.2 test server, or pssoibly even only come 2.2 launch, so nobody had a good feel about how they worked.
I'm sure lots of people who contributed at the time, also now disagree with some things they were happy with at the time. (Eg I think I quite liked the idea of locational armour, but it's been implemented so badly and thoughtlessly that I now feel we'd have been better off without it.)

[Strife]

I don't mind the current state. I'd just prefer to not need 10-15 seconds to actually sync when zoning and player movement needs to be better synched with the server. PvP is shit and nearly frustrating when you cant hit people because they jerk around.