Multiple problems with weapons, and resists, and EHP balance issues

[Model192]

If we look at Cyberpunk and what it means to be "at the top of your game", and I don't care about PVE(I know it needs reworked as well)...we can establish classes and architypes there, and where should. But, in PVP...it's a bit ridiculous in a Cyberpunk game. We don't have critical hit, so...yeah....
I don't want this to be me bitching about tanks, because I'm not. I'm actually, really, and truly disappointed in the current balance of the game. I believe this is the most unhappy I've been with Neocron and PVP thus far in terms of how useful ALL of the classes are at a given time.

Tested today:

Tank with ravager, devourer, and cursed soul against my PE doing chest shots(most common in cyberpunk games for accuracy of testing/damage)

Ravager used energy/xray ammo. Devourer was fire/poison. Cursed soul was Energy/Force.

Body health is the single best con stat to raise in terms of EHP up until lvl 75, then there are diminishing returns in comparison to resists.

Ravager is broken or something else is going on. The Energy/Xray damage did the same exact damage regardless of xray resist level and antigamma bones.
Dev works as intended.
Cursed soul force resist was not tested.

Energy seems to offer a larger amount of resist per point than both fire and poison.

The Con stat itself offers a boost to HP; automatically giving bonus to the tank...which does FAR too much damage for their possible EHP(effective hp), and far too low of damage for spy/pe for their lower effective HP.

Raising HLT will give you between 4-5hp(avg 5) per 1 skill point. So basically this turns into a diminishing return. 1 for 5, 1 for 2.5, 3 for 1.6

The problem? With mixing inquisition and blessed psi armor, with his set up and damage vs. me, you get approximately .6 dmg reduction in both fire AND poison per skill point spent. This was vs both the cursed soul and ravager, which don't do the same total damage. With my testing it was a FLAT RATE. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.

Why is it unacceptable? This makes the tank and his possible EHP leaps and BOUNDS above both the spy and PE, which, honestly the tank already has a large advantage over in terms of speed and usually damage. The tank also has access to splash weapons, which the PE and Spy generally do not.

IF you crunch the numbers in op fighting or overall PVP there is never an instance where the tank should come out on the losing end. They run strength as a primary, and thus have more options to resist piercing and have access to duranium to resist energy in equal fashion, the main damage types for spies and private eyes.

This is unacceptable for gameplay and balance across the board. We need a rework with testing, and we need (as I said in another thread) a "leveling off" towards the end of the leveling stem to have PVP be correct. We need more weapons to be viable. They are unacceptable at current state.

We have to remember:

Offense vs. Defense
Damage vs. EHP
Balance of weapons/normalization of top tier weapons(WoC weapons should all be normalized, MINIMUM.)
Style
STYLE.
STYLE!

[[F6]Knight]

I fully agree that the game isn't balanced right now (PVP and PVE), but you have to take some extra things into account.

I believe that the devs intended tanks to (usually) fight at short / medium range, whereas PE's and Spies (in case of rifles) have access to rather long range where they can take a BIG chunk of health off a tank before he even gets in firing range with this CS (or even worse, a devourer).
But range advantages don't always work out well if the opponent uses cover to close the gap. This is a problem in many games where the so called "sniper" classes seem very powerful on paper but aren't due to the just mentioned clever use of cover by the short range high damage / EHP classes.

And then I haven't even mentioned pistols or APU spells yet which have short range but are mostly handled by non Tanks who lack the EHP to stand toe to toe with a Tank and come out victorious.

Lowering max range on rifles and upping it on spells, pistols and cannons could be a step towards evening out the playing field, but this is by far the best or only option.

However, let me play devil's advocate here for a moment.
We all have to realize that this game is currently being run by a volunteer dev team and that they most likely also have jobs and a social life to tend to.
I'm sure that the devs are painfully aware that something has to be done, but we as players should give them the time they need to work something out. It's not as easy as spending a few minutes changing some numbers in the code.


As my ending note let me say that this is not an attack on you or your post, I actually like and support it, but I expect that this post can potentially end in a long discussion/argument with dev bashing which isn't helping anyone.
I just hope that my post can serve as a reminder for everyone who wants to reply to think before giving negative feedback.

[Model192]

I fully agree that the game isn't balanced right now (PVP and PVE), but you have to take some extra things into account.

I believe that the devs intended tanks to (usually) fight at short / medium range, whereas PE's and Spies (in case of rifles) have access to rather long range where they can take a BIG chunk of health off a tank before he even gets in firing range with this CS (or even worse, a devourer).
But range advantages don't always work out well if the opponent uses cover to close the gap. This is a problem in many games where the so called "sniper" classes seem very powerful on paper but aren't due to the just mentioned clever use of cover by the short range high damage / EHP classes.

And then I haven't even mentioned pistols or APU spells yet which have short range but are mostly handled by non Tanks who lack the EHP to stand toe to toe with a Tank and come out victorious.

Lowering max range on rifles and upping it on spells, pistols and cannons could be a step towards evening out the playing field, but this is by far the best or only option.

However, let me play devil's advocate here for a moment.
We all have to realize that this game is currently being run by a volunteer dev team and that they most likely also have jobs and a social life to tend to.
I'm sure that the devs are painfully aware that something has to be done, but we as players should give them the time they need to work something out. It's not as easy as spending a few minutes changing some numbers in the code.


As my ending note let me say that this is not an attack on you or your post, I actually like and support it, but I expect that this post can potentially end in a long discussion/argument with dev bashing which isn't helping anyone.
I just hope that my post can serve as a reminder for everyone who wants to reply to think before giving negative feedback.

Not really on the range thing. Each style has a few weapons for both close and long range. The problem is weapons in general suck except for a select few.

[Torg]

Imho the most important point in your rant is the word "style". You're right, style was neglected as an important factor for a cyberpunk game. Where are our dual-wield pistols, where is the special anti-psi sniper ammo, where's all the cool stuff? (i need to point out that both examples are... just examples)

In fact the "rock-paper-scissors" principle got weakened, and needs to be re-strengthened in neocron. Each class should have specific strenghts and weaknesses. Attempts to make all classes equal, and equally strong, would make NC more boring (than ever).

Again a big thumbs up for your input, Model192.

[[F6]Knight]

where is the special anti-psi sniper ammo

This was actually ingame years ago but got removed again for obvious reasons. 2-3 shotting PPU's with a SH wasn't exactly balanced.

[Netphreak]

This was actually ingame years ago but got removed again for obvious reasons. 2-3 shotting PPU's with a SH wasn't exactly balanced.

True, but what about something like 8 shots to kill a ppu? They'll have plenty of time to try and heal, but it puts them under pressure that they don't get unless anti-buffed.
Plus SH is a clunky weapon to use, and does rather poor damage these days.

[Dropout]

True, but what about something like 8 shots to kill a ppu? They'll have plenty of time to try and heal, but it puts them under pressure that they don't get unless anti-buffed.
Plus SH is a clunky weapon to use, and does rather poor damage these days.

I really dont want to see more close combat SH users..

[Netphreak]

I really dont want to see more close combat SH users..

Then it should be made like the redeemer were it requires range to do any kind of decent damage. Thus giving people the incentive to use its a long range weapon.

[nabbl]

Then it should be made like the redeemer were it requires range to do any kind of decent damage. Thus giving people the incentive to use its a long range weapon.

this !

[Doc Holliday]

I really dont want to see more close combat SH users..

No scoping 14 year olds. This isnt cod is it

[Powerpunsh]

Resis calculation (3 parts just look at the links above). Keep in mind spys and PE's can use shields and nanites which can be very effective with specialising on damagetypes.

edit: And stealth

[William Antrim]

You have to understand that 90% of PvP happens within melee range anyway.

[Netphreak]

You have to understand that 90% of PvP happens within melee range anyway.

Which is something that would be nice to change/mix up a bit. Mixing in some longer range fighting would really start to make things interesting at OP's.

[Druid311]

Which is something that would be nice to change/mix up a bit. Mixing in some longer range fighting would really start to make things interesting at OP's.

^ this.

[Dropout]

Which is something that would be nice to change/mix up a bit. Mixing in some longer range fighting would really start to make things interesting at OP's.

I disagree.
Dont think Theres anything I dislike more in games than snipers.
Close range fighting is what makes this game fun (and as fast-paced as it is).