1. #1
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    Default Redo Vehicle Skill for PE Usage

    One of my biggest pet peeves of Neocron has always been the outlaying uselessness of vehicles. I feel that Neocron should be a place where more players use vehicles for Wasteland travel and PvE mob hunting. I personally do not feel vehicles will ever be balanced enough for Outpost PvP battles, so any of the changes I propose will not effect PvP in any meaningful way.

    I will list my issues with Vehicles, and a proposed fix to help entice players to own and drive more vehicles. I won't go too much into boring detail with each issue I have.

    Vehicle Use - I only have an issue with two vehicles; Both DOY Hoverbombers. They are VHC 105, but there usage in the game is largely ignored.

    Problem? Both Hoverbombers have too high VHC requirement, and should be brought into line with other vehicles to make more sense, and to increase their usage.

    My fix? Drop their VHC requirement to about 85. This is more on par with the next highest VHC requirement, which is only 69. 69 to 85 seems to make more sense than 69 - 105.



    Add/Change Vehicle Weapon Requirement to incourage vehicle Use. - Change it so lower level runners can use the vehicle to level. Right now, Combat Vehicles are mostly the domain of Tanks due to the high, strict STR requirement to use the weapons. I feel Private Eyes should be the king of vehicles. It just feels right that PEs are the best drivers and gunners. It gives them an domain to be king of. I would also like to lessen the requirement so players of lower levels can use vehicles to level up without much issue.

    Problem? Combat Vehicles really are only used by Tanks with STR 68+. By the time a Tank can use a STR 68 Combat Vehicle, there is no point since their Cannons do much more damage than the same level Combat Vehicle anyway. Most Combat Vehicles are used maybe once out of curiosity, then ignored by Tanks.

    My fixes? Lessen the Str Requirement so Tanks can use Combat Vehicles to level. Here is a list of the current Vehicles in game and their STR requirement for usage;

    STR:24 H‑C:55------NEXT Terminator Assault Quad
    STR:61 H‑C:92------NEXT ER Combat Chaincraft V.1.2
    STR:68 H‑C:98------NEXT ER Assault Bike V.2
    STR:75 H‑C:102-----NEXT HH 4x4 Chaincraft V.1
    STR:75 H‑C:102-----NEXT AT Troopcarrier V.1
    DEX:76 R‑C:103-----NEXT Air Guard V1.1
    STR:79 H‑C:104-----NEXT ER Combat Hovertec V.1.2
    STR:79 H‑C:104-----NEXT Scorpion Trike V.1
    DEX:81 R‑C:105-----NEXT Assault Trophy Hunter V2.56
    STR:82 H‑C:106/STR:98 H‑C:114-----DOY Advanced Assault Glider
    STR:82 H‑C:106/STR:86 H‑C:108-----DOY Hoverbomber
    STR:82 H‑C:106-----DOY Hovercarrier
    STR:84 H‑C:107-----NEXT HH Combat Wheeler V.2
    STR:84 H‑C:107-----DOY HH4x4 Combat Chaincraft
    STR:85 H‑C:107-----NEXT Reveler-Chaincraft V.2.5
    STR:88 H‑C:109/STR:79 H‑C:104-----NEXT Heavy Assault Scorpion Trike V.2
    STR:90 H‑C:110 T‑C:79-----NEXT Rhino 4x4 Chaincraft V.2
    STR:92 H‑C:111-----DOY Assault Glider
    STR:98 H‑C:114-----DOY Advanced Scout
    STR:98 H‑C:113 T‑C:81-----NEXT Rhino 4x4 Chaincraft V3

    This is my proposed fix for the Combat Vehicle list;

    STR:20 H‑C:75------NEXT ER Combat Chaincraft V.1.2
    STR:25 H‑C:78------NEXT ER Assault Bike V.2
    STR:30 H‑C:84-----NEXT HH 4x4 Chaincraft V.1
    STR:35 H‑C:85-----NEXT AT Troopcarrier V.1
    DEX:35 R‑C:90-----NEXT Air Guard V1.1
    STR:40 H‑C:93-----NEXT ER Combat Hovertec V.1.2
    STR:45 H‑C:93-----NEXT Scorpion Trike V.1
    DEX:45 R‑C:93-----NEXT Assault Trophy Hunter V2.56
    STR:50 H‑C:98/STR:50 H‑C:98-----DOY Advanced Assault Glider
    STR:50 H‑C:98/STR:50 H‑C:98-----DOY Hoverbomber
    STR:50 H‑C:98------NEXT Terminator Assault Quad
    STR:55 H‑C:103-----DOY Hovercarrier
    STR:55 H‑C:103-----NEXT HH Combat Wheeler V.2
    STR:60 H‑C:105-----DOY HH4x4 Combat Chaincraft
    STR:65 H‑C:107-----NEXT Reveler-Chaincraft V.2.5
    STR:70 H‑C:109/STR:70 H‑C:109-----NEXT Heavy Assault Scorpion Trike V.2
    STR:75 H‑C:110-----NEXT Rhino 4x4 Chaincraft V.2
    STR:75 H‑C:110-----DOY Assault Glider
    STR:75 H‑C:110-----DOY Advanced Scout
    STR:75 H‑C:110-----NEXT Rhino 4x4 Chaincraft V3

    Problem? Private Eyes, I feel, should be the kings of Vehicles. Maybe they shouldn't BE the king of vehicles, but they should aleast be on par with Tanks. I also feel Droners (Riggers) to be able to pilot vehicles better.

    My Fix? If you want Private Eyes to be equal with Tanks, have all Vehicles carry a DEX requirement equal to it's STR requirement, and also allow a PC/RC/Drone requirement equal to it's HC requirement. This would only carry over to Private Eyes, and not to Spies or Monks.

    Now, if you want Private Eyes to be the best class to use vehicles, you can adjust the VHC requirement for PEs by, say, -5 Vehicle Use, and perhaps -2 Str/Dex use and -4 Skill use.

    Now, if you want Droners to be the best Specific class to use vehicles because in typical Sci Fi lore, Riggers/Droners can meld with machines, just further reduce the requirement from jsut above, but by another -1 Attribute and -2 Skill use.

    Problem? Allow Melee Tanks/PEs to be able to use Combat Vehilces.

    My Fix? Give Vehicles an MC option for MC Users to use the guns.

    So above I have three general requirement issues, and three fixes. I feel these would improve overall vehicle usage to Tanks and Private Eyes.



    Repair Destroyed Vehicles - Losing a vehicle to bugs, players, etc... really is an issue in the game. This wasn't so bad in the past, but the addition of the Jones Quad has basically ruined any vehicle economy the game once had. Also, players are less inclined to drive around and collect vehicles if they can never realistically use them in game.

    Problem? A free, easy starter vehicle has basically ruined the vehicle economy in Neocron. Who want's to spend 200k on vehicles only to lose them after parking them somewhere. Players avoid buying anything but a Quad in the long run because vehicles are just not worth it when compared to the Jones Quad.

    My Fix? Simply put, have any destroyed vehicle to be fixed at a garage for 80% of the vehicles cost. If you think about it, this will not only encourage a money sink in people buying more vehicles up front, but they will spend cash on fixing their vehicles over and over if they get blown up.

    Let's be honest here. We all know that the Jones Quad basically ruined all vehicles in the game. But instead of nerfing the Jones Quad, you would make all other vehicles worth using over the course of your runner's career.



    Fix Terminator Assault Quad - make it more on level with being a high level vehicle instead of twink fodder.

    Problem? To get this vehicle you have to beat 9 80/80 mobs and wander through Hoverbot territory. What do you get? A vehicle with weak missiles that miss most of the time at a point in your runner's career where any other combat vehicle at his level is flat out better.

    My Fix? If you look at my second vehicle list above, I made the requirements of the Assault Quad higher to reflect it's difficulty, but I would also like to see it's weaponry strengthened a bit to complete with higher ranking vehicles. The Ass Quad should not simply be a twink vehicle you get for your noob alts, it should be a powerful vehicle in it's own right for the difficulty you have to go through to get it.



    Have Combat Vehicles always hit it's target - I have created a thread on this HERE



    In Conclusion - I simply want vehicles to be a bigger part of the game, and if possible, I would like Private Eyes to be more adept at using Vehicles.

    -Make combat vehicles a better options for Tanks and PEs to use to level, regardless of Weapon choice of driver.
    -Maybe make Private Eyes better at vehicles by making their requirement slightly lower.
    -Maybe make Private Eye Droners better at vehicles by making their requirement slightly lower even still.
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    Bitter Old Fart Dribble Joy's Avatar
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    In several previous threads on the subject, I proposed a slightly different way to this problem: Remove all reqs from vehicles.

    Then factor vhc into top speed, turning circle and slope climb (these are all factors currently associated with vehicles, so in theory at least they could be affected by driver stats). VHC skilling under 2/3rds of the vehicle's TL would make them very sluggish but still drivable. Gliders would be barely capable of flight without decent skilling.

    Vehicle weapons would be governed primarily by weapon lore, but also the main combat skills, HC, MC, PC, RC, RCL and APU (maybe a higher affect for HC).

    This would give everyone 'access' to vehicles and their combat potential but those with vhc would see a marked benefit.

    One thing though, the quad. It's just too good, even without being indestructible. It's fast, low reqs and is 'cheap'. It's a n00b starter vehicle, the others ones need to be better than it.

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    So in essence, make vehicles just another weapon type any class could use? I could be behind this idea if it were tweaked.

    Auto hit when shooting. Weapon Lore would have no effect on vehicles as they would need to be able to auto hit to be useful. Right now, vehicles just miss too much by design, irregardless of weapon skill. I don't know why they do that, but they do.

    Be able to repair destroyed vehicles.
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    In Essence i like that idea, but not that destroyed vehicles are repairable. I think Neocron market should get back bit by bit more to being a market of researchers and constructors, than a market of indestructible and FSM bought Items (in all categories).
    Instead make them salavageable, so that you can get back many components that were used to make them (is it that way now? don't know for sure).
    And on the other hand make it harder to get back your "indestructible" vehicles. For instance you have to hand some NPC some cash or components to have them repaired. You will never loose them really, but you can't just click and have them full up again like it is now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deus Ex Machina View Post
    In Essence i like that idea, but not that destroyed vehicles are repairable. I think Neocron market should get back bit by bit more to being a market of researchers and constructors, than a market of indestructible and FSM bought Items (in all categories).
    The Neocron market will never get back to how it was before the Jones Quad because of the Jones Quad.

    But why have vehicles be destructable anyway? Rarely anyone ever drives vehicles. There is no reason to. You don't use vehicles in PvP. You don't explore the waste anymore, people jsut Venture Warp. And near capped characters don't care about vehicles because they already have public GRs around the waste.

    I would like to see clans be "biker" clans, driving from OP to OP on vehicles. I would like to see using vehicles as a leveling tool much more than t is now, which is zero.

    And on the other hand make it harder to get back your "indestructible" vehicles. For instance you have to hand some NPC some cash or components to have them repaired. You will never loose them really, but you can't just click and have them full up again like it is now.
    Doing this would make players use vehicles even less.

    Right now, in neocron, due to the GR system and Venture Warp (and just flat out fucking walking) non combat vehicles are virtually not used. And as for leveling, Combat Vehicles are ignored as well. They are a curiosity that people use once in a while, and that's it.

    It is a shame that such a wonderful aspect of the game has always been regulated to being more useless than Melee.
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    für einen freien Geist Deus Ex Machina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forget My Name View Post
    But why have vehicles be destructable anyway? Rarely anyone ever drives vehicles. There is no reason to. You don't use vehicles in PvP. You don't explore the waste anymore, people jsut Venture Warp. And near capped characters don't care about vehicles because they already have public GRs around the waste.

    Right now, in neocron, due to the GR system and Venture Warp (and just flat out fucking walking) non combat vehicles are virtually not used. And as for leveling, Combat Vehicles are ignored as well. They are a curiosity that people use once in a while, and that's it.
    When you put it that way, I think you are right. While I still think the Jones Quad could be somehow put in line, the GR and Venture Warp Points heavily outweigh the using of vehicles if they have to be remade every once in a while (and maybe quite often), making vehicles less practical AND more expensive (with some exceptions for which they are useful).

    I was just thinking about the market, not comparing the different ways of getting around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forget My Name View Post
    Auto hit when shooting.
    This brings up all sorts of issues for PvP however, plus it devalues WEP for vehicle use for PvE.

    Weapon Lore would have no effect on vehicles as they would need to be able to auto hit to be useful. Right now, vehicles just miss too much by design, irregardless of weapon skill. I don't know why they do that, but they do.
    Well WEP would have to have a direct impact on vehicle weapon performance of course.

    As to indestructible vehicles, they definitely need an increase in repair costs.

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    I think vehicle requirements really need to be brought down quite a bit to promote them as an option.

    I would also like to see maybe 2 more vehicle depots in the wastes, with public GR's and shops selling vehicle supplies.
    Making them hubs for people getting about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dribble Joy View Post
    (autohitting)This brings up all sorts of issues for PvP however, plus it devalues WEP for vehicle use for PvE.
    But the Rhino already auto hits when the reticle is closed, irregardless of your weapon lore and the reticule. I have never seen Rhinos become something everyone needs to bring to PvP.

    The fact is, due to the firing arc of most vehicles, they are essentially worthless in PvP, auto hitting or not. Any capped runner with the ability to MOVE can just run around a driver trying to stay still to position their vehicle firing arc.

    Anyway, you may have a good point, but my concern is not PvP at all in this thread. The point of this thread is to make vehicles a viable leveling tool for players, instead of having all combat vehicles crammed up in the strength 70 range for only gimped PEs and Tanks to use.

    Well WEP would have to have a direct impact on vehicle weapon performance of course.
    Weapon Lore doesn't have much of an impact at all currently.

    I have tested this over and over and combat vehicles are each individually designed to miss a certain amount of times.

    What I mean is this... Even if the target reticule is closed completely on an enemy, you will still miss a certain percentage of your shots in each vehicle. Heck, distance matters... If I am in a spot where my Heavy Scorpion Trike misses the first shot but hits the last two shots, this will ALWAYS happen, over and over, unless the distance is changed. The reticle is closed completely, but the same shots miss over and over.

    As someone who has been using various combat vehicles to farm mobs in the past few weeks, the following is a fact;

    My Tank, with a Jones Quad and a STORMlaser cannon, is better than any Combat Vehicle in the game for damage over time. So why even bother having Combat Vehicles if all anyone uses them for is for an hour until they realize how ineffective they are at farming experience/loot?

    I have more FUN using a Scorpion assault trike or Termie Quad than I do my Jones Quad and Cannon, but their miss percentage is too damn high to actually BE any fun to use.

    The Rhino already either auto hits or has such a high hit percentage that it seemingly never misses for me, ever, so why are the rest of the combat vehicles prone to missing a majority of the time when the reticle is completely closed? Just make them auto hit like the Rhino and you'll have more people using vehicles to farm, instead of rolling rifle up rifle spies and heavy cannon tanks.

    The biggest disappointment was the DOY Chaincraft. It has such a cool sounding cannon with awesome visuals, but it misses more than 50% of the time, no matter the distance.

    I guess my point is this...

    Combat Vehicles needs to just be more fun to use for people to actually use them. I am not asking that every combat vehicle out damage rare weapons. No. I am asking that they hit more often so the "illusion is there that this vehicle matter and are fun to use". Missing most of my shots on just about any vehicle that isn't a Rhino is currently NOT FUN.

    Basically, right now, when the reticle is closed, the Rhino v2 never misses. It always hits, but no other vehicle is like this. All other combat vehicles will always miss as if it past of that vehicle's design instead of Weapon Lore skill. So right now, Weapon Lore doesn't matter.

    Just make all Combat Vehicles hit 100% of the time when the reticle is nearly closed or completely closed just like the Rhino v2.



    As for your comment about the price of repairing destroyed vehicles, having it be high is fine with me. I say around 85% of the vehicle's base store cost, but that is just a number, and number don't matter as they can be adjusted for game balance.
    Last edited by Forget My Name; 09-12-12 at 02:47.
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  10. #10
    Bitter Old Fart Dribble Joy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forget My Name View Post
    Weapon Lore doesn't have much of an impact at all currently.
    No, it doesn't. I meant that (if something along the lines of my suggestion were done) it needs to be.

    What I mean is this... Even if the target reticule is closed completely on an enemy, you will still miss a certain percentage of your shots in each vehicle.
    And that needs to be fixed.

    I say around 85% of the vehicle's base store cost, but that is just a number, and number don't matter as they can be adjusted for game balance.
    You'd need to base it on the cost of parts with barter. List price is considerably higher than what you can actually pay for a vehicle.

    I'm not too sold on repairing the non-indestructible vehicles. The indestructible ones could have their repair costs tied to level, like GR costs. This wouldn't penalise low lvl runners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forget My Name View Post

    My Fix? Give Vehicles an MC option for MC Users to use the guns.


    First thought that came to mind.

    Interesting read though. A good angle to approach it all from. I dont think vehicular PvP will ever really be something that actually takes off in this game like some have wanted but their increased impact on PvE would be a definite boost to the fun factor in this game.
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