[R#175/6] Test Patch Discussion

[slith]

Well ... if you get the enemies attention and lets say two spies are chasing you, you will holster your weapon anyway and run. It is the tanks "stealth". Clipping.

Only problem I see. If we adjust the runspeed, the spies could become more powerful as they are the only class able to evade combat.

This, basically.

And: If updates on player movements come more frequently (left right sidesteps) Tanks are gonna have a hard time anyway. Dont make it worse by also reducing his runspeed.

[Linear]

It takes 1-2 Dissy shots for spy to kill spy. How much shots it is for tank killing a spy? Yeeeah, nerf teh Tank damage for sure....

Atm spies are DD, and tanks, well, just something. They don't really tank much and don't really do much damage. Want to deal more damage? Sacrifice your speed/resists and become a pray. Want to be more tankable? Sacrifice your speed/damage and become a pray. Want to be fast? Sacrifice your resists and damage, get an arrow in the knee and become a pray. IMO tanks should be slightly adjusted in tanking or damage dealing.

[Kame]

Just pointing out : tanks do almost as much damage as spys, especially in PVE.

The other day I was firemobs hunting, an my 210RC healing light spy was being outdamaged by a rav HC tank.

Tanks should not even approach the damage output of a spy, it should be under that.

Damage dealing : APU > SPY > TANK > PE

Damage intake : TANK > PE > SPY > APU

Deliberately taking PPU out of the equation here.

[Netphreak]

Just pointing out : tanks do almost as much damage as spys, especially in PVE.

The other day I was firemobs hunting, an my 210RC healing light spy was being outdamaged by a rav HC tank.

Tanks should not even approach the damage output of a spy, it should be under that.

Damage dealing : APU > SPY > TANK > PE

Damage intake : TANK > PE > SPY > APU

Deliberately taking PPU out of the equation here.

That seems about right to me.

[Torg]

Damage dealing : APU > SPY > TANK > PE
Damage intake : TANK > PE > SPY > APU

This is your opinion, i'd rather see:
damage: spy + hctank > apu + pe
defence: tank > pe > apu > spy

[J@ck on Cr@ck]

This is your opinion, i'd rather see:
damage: spy + hctank > apu + pe
defence: tank > pe > apu > spy

I have to disagree with you. I guess you are a tank player why else would you want tanks to do the most damage AND have the beste defence? APU should do the most damage, since thats his purpose, and have the weakest defence.


Just because the Dissy is broken and its damage insane doesnt mean tanks should get a damage buff. What kame suggested is how things should be after the weapons have been balanced, not how things are now, keep that in mind. Tanks are not supposed to be the best DD (or do more damage than a spy), they have the best defence, hence the name tank.
I totally agree with what kame said.

[Dribble Joy]

If PEs have the lowest offence, then they need the highest defence. At the moment tanks have pretty much the highest dmg, hp, armour, resists and implant bonuses.

[J@ck on Cr@ck]

If PEs have the lowest offence, then they need the highest defence. At the moment tanks have pretty much the highest dmg, hp, armour, resists and implant bonuses.

Yes, you are right. But since PEs should be average in all skills I would suggest something like this after the weapons have been balanced:

Offence : APU > SPY > PE > TANK

Defence : TANK > PE > SPY > APU

[Dropout]

Yes, you are right. But since PEs should be average in all skills I would suggest something like this after the weapons have been balanced:

Offence : APU > SPY > PE > TANK

Defence : TANK > PE > SPY > APU

The PEs should just gain their better (than tanks) defence from selfbuffs.. Although this obviously will fuck PEs over in opfights where there are PPUs, but IMO it should be something like PSI that gets PEs up and have a good defence..
Votes for major buff of the low level.. buffs.

[Dribble Joy]

Although this obviously will fuck PEs over in opfights where there are PPUs

The age-old argument.

The biggest problem is that PEs gain the least from PPUs.

Reworking how PEs benefit from either PPUs or their own psi abilities is key to balancing the class in the wider spectrum.

Psi Shield and the Booster spells are an obvious avenue. Stacking higher spell versions of shields on lower ones also may work.

There's always the option of doing something with psi-resist as well.

[Dropout]

There's always the option of doing something with psi-resist as well.

I usually have all my points in psi-resists, because its just too useless to use the low level psi stuff atm. And at the same time I currently gain A LOT more from using a Dex glove instead of a PSI glove.

[Dribble Joy]

The defence benefits from the PE self-buffs are not small, even when using the low level shields.

It might only be a 10% reduction overall, but on top of resists and armour, that means going from 60% to 66%.

Seems like a small amount, but look at the damage taken:

100 dmg points received - 60% resist - 40 dmg points taken.
100 dmg points received - 66% resist - 34 dmg points taken.

34/40 = 85% of original dmg, 15% reduction.

[slith]

Offence: APU > Tank = Spy > PE (= Melee Tank)
Defence (+ppu): Tank > PE > Spy > APU
Defence (solo): PE > Tank > Spy > APU

Spy and Tank even out because spy got stealth and more runspeed. The difference between damage of PE and Spy should be noticable, but not overwhelming.

And please do not think about roles like DD, Healer, Tank... that thinking ultimately ruined balancing and every hybrid or creative setup there is. Neocron should absolutely not look like that. There should not be any class limitations. Everyone should be able to use two weapon classes and be decent with it if he wishes and got the skills.


My opinion on how it should be:
GenTanks are designed for war. They should be best at it. The other classes have tradeskills, stealth, speed, hacking and/or nice solo efficiency, insane damage output.. Make it storyline all the way.

And FYI: I play everything but monks. I played PE PE when all others used TAR. I played HC Tank when a single Crossbow could kill 5 Tanks. I owned a fucking HC Spy. I'm not proposing this because I want my Tank to be ubar - I'm proposing this because Neocron was most fun and felt best in the Tank-o-Cron phase. And I want Hybrids back, even if they were overpowered, because killing a Hybrid in a duel was the most rewarding thing you could do.

[BlueRobot]

What do you mean with Tankocron ?

If you want a real new balancing, you probably have to invest _A LOT_ more time and thinking than the little pieces of "advice" everyone here throws at the gms.

My suggestion would be to ask what everyone enjoyed most about each class/playstyle from 2001 until now. Then split balancing into PvE/Team-PvP/Solo-PvP and then resdesign it according to what everyone enjoyed the most.

You can only make everyone happy if you know what the complete picture should look like so you can consider the correlations between the changes/redesigns.

[Doc Holliday]

, they have the best defence, hence the name tank.
I totally agree with what kame said.

That looks suspiciously like a wow/other generic mmo reference. Neocron predates wow and the "tank" in wow is not necessarily the tank in this game. They are similar in the sense that they are built to withstand a beating but dont ruin the class by nerfing their damage into oblivion because thats how they do it to blood elves.........