Fixing Weapon Balance - the Methodical Way

[Doc Holliday]

no one said sniper energy beams. just an increase in range comparative to the nc1/2 level would be better than they have now.

[Torg]

i'm really more into cmasters ideas: instead of boosting damage for apus, we should give them more exotic abilities.

[Jeremy Morton]

I wouldn't ask for APU-Range but Frequency being put back (ie old 105 for Beams). Of course with adjusted DMG and Aim, not back to old Monkocron, dont get this wrong.

Why? Simple: because it was so much fun to play.

And APU DMG needs to be something to play different tactics again, like Poison-Stack-spamming Obliterator Spies before they Stealth. Balance dps and resilience to fit other classes but make it deal DOTs so it doesn't end up being just another set of gfx to apply the same dmg.

[William Antrim]

I wouldn't ask for APU-Range but Frequency being put back (ie old 105 for Beams). Of course with adjusted DMG and Aim, not back to old Monkocron, dont get this wrong.

Why? Simple: because it was so much fun to play.

And APU DMG needs to be something to play different tactics again, like Poison-Stack-spamming Obliterator Spies before they Stealth. Balance dps and resilience to fit other classes but make it deal DOTs so it doesn't end up being just another set of gfx to apply the same dmg.

But with that suggestion thats what you would get, APUs get unnerfed and put back to how they used to be - which with a ppu team makes them on a par with monkocron all over again. All this does is encourage APU/PPU teams once again and does not take into account PvE.

More range instantly makes them more viable in PvE AND PvP.

[Dribble Joy]

PvP balance needs to be addressed first. PvE can be 'added' afterwards.

There's plenty of scope for PvE modifications. Pistol and melee dmg might be higher against mobs, while heavy an rifles have the range advantage for wasteland hunting.

I think it's better if APUs were on an equal footing in PvP with the other classes than giving them additional powers/gimmicks. HAB was one of the biggest reasons for monkocron. As soon as you give a class a necessary ability/role, it becomes mandatory.

[Jeremy Morton]

But with that suggestion thats what you would get, APUs get unnerfed and put back to how they used to be - which with a ppu team makes them on a par with monkocron all over again. All this does is encourage APU/PPU teams once again and does not take into account PvE.

More range instantly makes them more viable in PvE AND PvP.

lol wtf is that? I specifically mention monkocron and that it is to be avoided by adjusting DPS-outcome and APUs resilience in PVP so that its not op. But hey... why not completely ignore that and just claim something different...

btw monkocron was more than just the APU-part. In fact the major thing was the imba PPU we had back then and without that even APU range and frequency together wont make a new monkocron.

[Dribble Joy]

He might have been referring to the thing about DoT/stealth comment. Giving APUs a 'thing' other than being on one end of the offence/defence spectrum will only see them become overly important to PvP above the other classes.

[Ascension]

It saddens me to see the state of the APU class, I have fond memories of APU/PPU combo, while I agree the DMG to Frequency was outrageous, if the frequency was restored and the damage output was to be addressed I dont see how that would be a bad thing.

I've recently returned to NC after leaving back in 2004, to see the APU class has been destroyed! APU's should have HAB, it makes no sense for a PPU to have it, why?

I go to attack a PPU on my APU, so while I stand there attacking, in the mean time he uses HAB on me... now what, there was nothing quite like being the missing puzzle piece in an OP war and bringing down the PPU's.

I dont feel I've got to grips with the state of balancing in game right now, so I dont really have a place to comment on how to fix, but sure hope things get sorted.

[Dribble Joy]

APU's should have HAB, it makes no sense for a PPU to have it, why?

Because if APUs have HAB in addition to being dmg dealers, why bring tanks, spies or PEs to an OP fight?

[Ascension]

Because if APUs have HAB in addition to being dmg dealers, why bring tanks, spies or PEs to an OP fight?

Because APU's are targeted because of this ability and run the risk of being killed?

I don't know, weapon balancing in Neocron is like real life politics, there is always going to be someone unhappy.

[Dribble Joy]

Lets assume that all the combat classes are equal regarding defence/offence. Then we give one of those classes HAB.
Why bring any of the other classes?

Sure, you could only bring one or two, but why loose the flexibility of having all of them with it?
APUs weren't that much powerful back in monkocron 1vs1, but as soon as they were given an extra they became a necessity.

Even if you balance the time needed to cast vs the loss of power output, you then ingrain the requirement for that ability to be present in team PvP.

[CMaster]

What is wrong with apus having short and long ranged spells like spies. If spies have the option of both then apus should have it also.

no one said sniper energy beams. just an increase in range comparative to the nc1/2 level would be better than they have now.

Ah you see I (and it seems some others) had got the impression you meant that all APU spells should have laser rifle type range.
Some variety in spell ranges might be a nice touch, give APUs some choices to make about spell use perhaps. Not convinced it solves a lot though.


Even ignoring the whole antibuff issue, let's say we get all classes to the point where in a one-on-one, they'd fall over simultaneously. When it comes to a big teamfight, the focus is going to be on getting the opponents best damage dealers down first. What's the best way to do that? Stack your own team with the best damage dealing class. If you bring a class with better defence, they'll just be ignored by your opponents until they're all that's left. Add that to the fact that monks can hack, and spies would have less to gain from a PPU due to losing self-buffs, and you have to ask why anybody would bring anything but APUs. As DJ says, add on antibuffing and the problem gets worse. It's why I suggested making APUs all about the debuffs and antibuffs - you can balance them for that solo, and get team utility out of it too - but stacking the one class will never be the all around solution.

Another way this fate could be avoided would be to really support setup diversity. Make tough APUs possible, as well as squishy, high damage tanks. The former probably means looking at how shields work and the hybrid issue again, the latter means really opening up setups and making mainskill, weaponskill and defence all things that trade off each other.

Finally, you could make monks so painfully squishy that even with PPU buffs they go down easily, so that the solution to a monk spamming enemy team was just a buffed up tank who could afford to AoE at close range once or twice and take the whole lot down. However, the damage you'd have to give APUs in exchange for this would potentially have some big balance issues for both PvE and PvP.

Oh, and I take it you all agree about the general plan for sorting weapon balance out then?

[CMaster]

Hmm, I've just a few simulations (in my head, not actually designed a sim) and the results weren't promising. Given some kind of hypothetical perfect class balance, and all people using an optimal setup, a team of 100% tanks or 100% APUs always beats a mixed team. The two pure teams are equal, however I suspect that once you bring PPU factors in, it will tip slightly in favour of the APUs (also, APUs can hack and poke)

[William Antrim]

DJ if you're mad about something then come out with it. I was quoting someone else's post. Nothing to do with yours. You can calm down now.

As for the other discussion points there is plenty of room for debate. Apu as a class is currently underpowered. A range buff is a very simple way of slightly increasing this capability without the sledgehammer if changes that 2.2 has brought us. increasing rof back to 105 for holy lightning is not a good fix imo. Hence why I posted my previous thoughts. I am all for discussion but let's not have these pedantic replies like wtf and the scowling smiley eh.

I will post more later on when I have a proper keyboard in front of me. I am a massive supporter of small changes a little at a time not radical sweeping cchanges that have been proposed historically.

[Xiphias]

If HAB is such a contentious issue, why just not remove it? If PPU's are balanced and I think they are quite close these days, why is HAB even neccesary?

by removing HAB you remove a variance that needs to be accounted for. If you're concerned that PPU's would become invincible again, then I'm unsure... a direct assault usually kills most PPU's these days anyway.

The state of APU's is a complete joke. And people are referring to Monk'ocron or any other flavour of the month.

You remove HAB, you remove the necessity for (include class here with it). HAB and Para has always overcomplicated this game and is watered down enough without generating whimsical ideas of which cannot be tested to death during this current climate.

Remove unneeded variances = game is easier to balance.