WoC Changes - Make it fair

[William Antrim]

Or lower their stat quality to 100% across the board. Hitech should be a lot more powerful than a 750 year old carbine weapon. What will be next muskets that can one shot kill ppus!

[Dropout]

Or lower their stat quality to 100% across the board. Hitech should be a lot more powerful than a 750 year old carbine weapon. What will be next muskets that can one shot kill ppus!

Random stats like the old Xbow would be very nice IMO.

[shanghao90]

I thinks random stats of Hitech would be very nice IMO.

[J@ck on Cr@ck]

Yes, random stats and slots! No more all arti and 3+ slot woc weapons. Also you should be able to do the woc runs only once per char.

[Kame]

We dont need a nerf, we need a bump in other weapons, so they are pvp viable again. All the other rares that used to be good now do too little damage. Executioner, ROLH, slasher, redeemer, ROG, Silent hunter, all them hightech weapons need to make enough damage to compete with WOC item, thats all.

This will flood the market with new rares sought after and diversify the PVP setups.

Once that is done, you adjust APU, low and blessed lv PPU spells and the game is is pretty much viable, with all the bullshit like annites still in it.

[Doc Holliday]

Or lower their stat quality to 100% across the board. Hitech should be a lot more powerful than a 750 year old carbine weapon. What will be next muskets that can one shot kill ppus!

So you can spit down the barrel and shoot 3 ppu's per minute? I want to be Harper. You can be Sharpe

edit. even with a limit of a one time run for a woc gun per char would be a little brutal.


Random Stats. YES. Minimum 1 slot. Definitely. Everything else is open to discussion. PS the other weapons do need a boost too.

Nerfing AK and dissie. mmmm. I say boost the first love and watch the spy version of the cs tank go to work.

[Kame]

Random Stats. YES. Minimum 1 slot. Definitely. Everything else is open to discussion. PS the other weapons do need a boost too.

Nerfing AK and dissie. mmmm. I say boost the first love and watch the spy version of the cs tank go to work.

Have you tried to kill any PPU buffed class with say, a Slasher or Executionner lately ? The output damage/min so ridiulously low you can hardly kill anywthing that's PPU buffed. This is the reason why people use AK and Dissys. The pistol class is completely under-par. Same goes for most rifles, except Dissy and AK.

[dWintermut3]

I think the reduction of WoC to something that requires serious time investment and recon is a strong step in the right direction.

Next step is reducing WoC from leaps and bounds to an incremental step up.

I would like to see WoC weapons put somewhere in the middle of the rare spectrum.

Because of the effort required and the fact they require the involvement of tradeskill characters, rares should always be superior. If not it cuts tradeskill characters totally out of the loop, as rares become only a minor stepping stone.


My IDEAL long-term solution is to give each top-end weapon source a niche in the ecology: Ion weapons, Ceres Weapons and rare weapons should each have a role.

I propose that ceres weapons be given a niche that makes them superior for PvE, make THEM the stepping stone to high-slot rares. Ion weapons should be a short-range and risky weapon with a high risk-reward ratio. And the top-end rare weapons should become the PvP goto.


I have a few suggestions to effect this: Give players' inherent "steel skin" damage reduction a greater effect against ceres weapons. This fits the lore in that the Ceres weapons are developed from the weapons of the DoY-Neocron war, and the factions have had ample time to develop countermeasures. the Monks have had time to adapt their psionic defenses, and the Genetanks they engineered have been designed to resist the Dome's weapons. PA has been built with those weapons in mind.

Rares have no reduction from players' "steelskin" DR, and remain as they are. Though some holes in the "weapon ecology" should be filled (IE a rare grenade launcher).

Ion weapons have their RoF reduced further and have a critical hit mechanism (if possible in the engine) to further enhance their "all or nothing" nature, either they nuke or they fall flat, they would be a great boon to PEs who could now have a choice of powerful alpha strikes at the cost of not toting a consistent rare-part weapon.

PEs gain potent ability-enhancing PA to allow them to reach the same weapons as the classes they emulate, but they will cap weapons less well, at the exchange of psionic self-enhancement.

All weapons have their requirements reduced BUT the effect of skills is enhanced to make capping a weapon's capabilities more powerful. This allows PEs to tote the same guns as their pure-class counterparts but they will deal less damage on an order of magnitude, compensated to the same level as other classes only by their self-buffs.

[danmalone]

We dont need a nerf, we need a bump in other weapons, so they are pvp viable again. All the other rares that used to be good now do too little damage. Executioner, ROLH, slasher, redeemer, ROG, Silent hunter, all them hightech weapons need to make enough damage to compete with WOC item, thats all.

This will flood the market with new rares sought after and diversify the PVP setups.

Once that is done, you adjust APU, low and blessed lv PPU spells and the game is is pretty much viable, with all the bullshit like annites still in it.

I completely agree with the above. I miss the good old days weilding the first love / slasher / exe.

[Ivan Eres]

I think the reduction of WoC to something that requires serious time investment and recon is a strong step in the right direction.

Next step is reducing WoC from leaps and bounds to an incremental step up.

I would like to see WoC weapons put somewhere in the middle of the rare spectrum.

Because of the effort required and the fact they require the involvement of tradeskill characters, rares should always be superior. If not it cuts tradeskill characters totally out of the loop, as rares become only a minor stepping stone.

My IDEAL long-term solution is to give each top-end weapon source a niche in the ecology: Ion weapons, Ceres Weapons and rare weapons should each have a role.

I propose that ceres weapons be given a niche that makes them superior for PvE, make THEM the stepping stone to high-slot rares. Ion weapons should be a short-range and risky weapon with a high risk-reward ratio. And the top-end rare weapons should become the PvP goto.

I have a few suggestions to effect this: Give players' inherent "steel skin" damage reduction a greater effect against ceres weapons. This fits the lore in that the Ceres weapons are developed from the weapons of the DoY-Neocron war, and the factions have had ample time to develop countermeasures. the Monks have had time to adapt their psionic defenses, and the Genetanks they engineered have been designed to resist the Dome's weapons. PA has been built with those weapons in mind.

Rares have no reduction from players' "steelskin" DR, and remain as they are. Though some holes in the "weapon ecology" should be filled (IE a rare grenade launcher).

Ion weapons have their RoF reduced further and have a critical hit mechanism (if possible in the engine) to further enhance their "all or nothing" nature, either they nuke or they fall flat, they would be a great boon to PEs who could now have a choice of powerful alpha strikes at the cost of not toting a consistent rare-part weapon.

PEs gain potent ability-enhancing PA to allow them to reach the same weapons as the classes they emulate, but they will cap weapons less well, at the exchange of psionic self-enhancement.

All weapons have their requirements reduced BUT the effect of skills is enhanced to make capping a weapon's capabilities more powerful. This allows PEs to tote the same guns as their pure-class counterparts but they will deal less damage on an order of magnitude, compensated to the same level as other classes only by their self-buffs.

I think this is a good summary of possible solutions for many problems there are atm for WOC and the weapon balance of ionics, rares, and ceres guns. These suggestions cover also one aspect of armor and the PE problem too.

These suggestions sound quite good to me, and they could be a very good basis for discussions.

I hope more people read this.

Thank you.

[Dropout]

I think this is a good summary of possible solutions for many problems there are atm for WOC and the weapon balance of ionics, rares, and ceres guns. These suggestions cover also one aspect of armor and the PE problem too.

These suggestions sound quite good to me, and they could be a very good basis for discussions.

I hope more people read this.

Thank you.

I dont agree with that at all actually.
First of most of what he wrote are just way more advanced that it has to be.
Second, lets not force PEs into PAs even more than it is already..

What they need to do is to adjust the damage of the different weapons - which should be rather easy, since iirc a part of the non-finished balancing patch was to make it easyer to adjust weapons.
Ofcourse Im not saying that the balancing part will be easy, but the adjustment of certan weapons should be.

If I was the one balancing NC PVP the following weapons would be changed..
Only gonna take rifles, pistols and HC, since those are the weapon types I have used the most.
Both Melee and APU's obviously needs a lot of balancing aswell.

Non rares should obviously have the same balancing.


Warning Very long list of weapons..

Rifles
Terminator: More damage (about 10-15% more)
Pain Easer: More damage (about 10% more)
Ionic Shotgun Rifle: Stay as it is
SWAT Assault Rifle: More damage (5-10% more)
Desperado: Lower dex req to 101, exept for that, stay as it is
Libra: I dont have much experience with this so no idea
IAR-47: Slightly lower damage (about 5% less)
CAR-47: Slightly lower damage (about 5-10% less)
Ronin Sniper Rifle: I dont have much experience with this so no idea
Ray of God: Without a update to the netcode Theres really no point.
Thunderstorm: I dont have much experience with this so no idea
Redeemer: I dont have much experience with this so no idea
Healing Light: Same as RoG, however it should have its damage lowered if that was fixed (about 10% less)
Silent Hunter: I dont have much experience with this so no idea
First Love: More damage (about 15-25% more)
Disruptor: Faster freq and lower damage (10-20% faster freq, 20-30% less damage)

Pistols
Wyatt Earp: More damage (about 10-20% more)
Liberator: Faster aimspeed (20-30% faster) and uhm.. Less gay sound? lol
Ionic Shotgun Pistol: Pretty decent as it is, maybe get fast switching between them fixed
SWAT Backup Pistol: Higher damage (30-40% more)
Freeman Pistol: Same as it is
Craftmans Dream: I dont have much experience with this so no idea
Dreadfire Prototype 03: I dont have much experience with this so no idea
BHG-9: Small increase in damage (about 5% more)
Judge: More as it was before 2.2 (20-25% more damage, about 10% slower freq)
Xbow: Slightly less damage (about 5-10% less damage)
Steiner FP 1.0: I dont have much experience with this so no idea
Slasher: Higher freq (20-25% faster freq)
Beam of Hell: See Healing Light
Ray of Last Hope: Same as Healing Light
Executioner: More damage! (20-30% more)

Heavy Weapons
Winding Argument: As it is
Ionic Shotgun Cannon: Lower damage (10-20% less)
Equilibrium of Forces: Should probably stay as it is, but not completely sure - havent used it in a while
Devourer: Less damage (5-10% less)
Moon Striker: I dont have much experience with this so no idea
Warhammer: I like as it is - very suicidal to use, but very big damage
Summer Leech: I dont have much experience with this so no idea
Ravager: See Healing Light
Cursed Soul: Slightly lower damage (10-15% less)
Malediction: I dont have much experience with this so no idea
Special Forces Plasma Wave: See Healing Light
Doom Beamer: I dont have much experience with this so no idea
Creed: See Healing Light - if fixed it should have its damage lowered quite a lot though
Special Raygun Cannon: I dont have any experience with this so no idea


EDIT: Wait, completely forgot that the subject is about WoC weapons.. Sorry about that, but at least I included WoC weapons in the list, so hopefully still relevant enough..

[dWintermut3]

The reason I support a total redo is that I think they should avoid the problem they have with the Dissy where one weapon is obviously and numerically superior to any other in the class.

Unless weapons are given unique niches one will ALWAYS be the best. Changing PvP aspects and rebalancing would mean your choice of weapons will depend on what you want to do not just selecting the best one in the class and using it to the exclusion of all others.

It wouldn't necessarily have to be PA for PEs either, but I think changing weapons to be uniformly easier to use but harder to cap would finally solve the "why do they exist?" question with PEs. As it stands they get only the same weapons other people do, but not the TL115 versions that are the numerically best-in-class. It could be special PE implants, PA, even a tool like the tank nano-healer (PE drug autoinjector with combat drugs?)

The biggest part of my suggestion would be to keep ceres weapons as hard as they are to use now (requiring WoC-1, or 100mil XP overcapped) and reduce the TL of all other rares a good 20% or so.

Then make it so that at effective dex 115 with commiserate substats you reach the weapon's full potential. This way PEs get access to the full range of weapons and pure classes retain their advantage until you account for the bonuses PEs get from their special something.

[William Antrim]

Guys I think we are on to something! love the last two posts.

[Sechs]

Whatever you do;

DO IT TO EVERYONE


Can't stress this enough. Seriously.
This lame 'oh, we NOW removed x, whoever already had it will be fine though' really pisses me off.

At least make it fair.

[Faid]

Thats a slippery slope, it's a little late to all of a sudden change everything with woc, there have been people exclusively working toward woc and a woc setup from the beginning. It would be ridiculously unfair to take all of that away now. The only way to effectively implement this would be to wipe the server completely and start again from fresh without woc. I somehow don't think all you non-woc people would go for that idea, even though you are essentially suggesting the same for the pro-woc people.

It's a difficult situation, and honestly I don't even see woc weapons as a problem, I prefer Dissy over AK any day. But I think they definitely need to boost the damage on all the pointless rares that were nerfed into the ground so long ago. Adding the woc weapons to the rare pool would be fine with me but what do you do with the one's already in game?

Hopefully the devs are smart about this and don't just jump to rash decisions like "OMG people are complaining about droning lets just remove all drones from the game". Removing woc completely would be a horrendous decision to make now. A complete wipe or a complete balance seems to be the only choices atm.