Neocron 2 Skills Guide [English & French]

[Siygess]

Ok I'm confused again Lupus - are you saying that if the total % of the skills involved are lower, then it is easier to cap?

E.G. X: 50%, Y: 25% (total 75%) is easier to cap than X: 60%, Y: 35% (total 95%)?

[AlphaGremlin]

The actual amount you have in one of the "statistics", ie: the points you have in construction, or the amount of health you have, is not simply based on the percentages of the skills you have.

The points you have in each skill only work towards the flip point, and then to the cap. In my calculations for NeoSkiller, the points in HLT flip at 100, and increasingly contribute less to the final value above that. However, the points for CON flip at 70, and the formula that gives the eventual value means that the lower the flip point is, the more the skill points you have in it contribute to the final value.

What does this mean? Well, in reality, HLT points give around 2.25 points of health each, and CON points give around 1.6 points, far from the half that the guide suggests.

So don't believe that the figures here give you a way to work out how much to put in each skill to cap it out. The figures here are only the ending multiplier for the calculated value of the skill, before they're added together to give your final figure. There's an entire step before that, and it can give a radically different figure than the amount of skill points you put in.

Hope I've explained things clearly enough and not given out information I shouldn't have.
AlphaGremlin

[Dirus]

Ok I'm confused again Lupus - are you saying that if the total % of the skills involved are lower, then it is easier to cap?

E.G. X: 50%, Y: 25% (total 75%) is easier to cap than X: 60%, Y: 35% (total 95%)?

No. X 50% + Y 25% is a nerf compared to X 60% + Y 35%.

Tho when this is done, in most cases (atleast with weapons) you won't notice it as you need a set amount of X + Y and sometimes Z for other things. Like the AIM on Pistols. You may notice the effect right off the bat, as AIM is now more inline with your other stats, but it will be capped when the rest of the stats are capped.

Some stats on certain things were too easy to cap compared to the others, so they were adjusted to be closer to the others.

[jernau]

The actual amount you have in one of the "statistics", ie: the points you have in construction, or the amount of health you have, is not simply based on the percentages of the skills you have.

The points you have in each skill only work towards the flip point, and then to the cap. In my calculations for NeoSkiller, the points in HLT flip at 100, and increasingly contribute less to the final value above that. However, the points for CON flip at 70, and the formula that gives the eventual value means that the lower the flip point is, the more the skill points you have in it contribute to the final value.

What does this mean? Well, in reality, HLT points give around 2.25 points of health each, and CON points give around 1.6 points, far from the half that the guide suggests.

So don't believe that the figures here give you a way to work out how much to put in each skill to cap it out. The figures here are only the ending multiplier for the calculated value of the skill, before they're added together to give your final figure. There's an entire step before that, and it can give a radically different figure than the amount of skill points you put in.

Hope I've explained things clearly enough and not given out information I shouldn't have.
AlphaGremlin

Surely the "flip point" (ie rate change) effect should be applied after the "hidden stat" calc.

[Dirus]

Surely the "flip point" (ie rate change) effect should be applied after the "hidden stat" calc.

It is. The aim of this guide is to show you what skills are involved in the calculations, and their relative value. If you want to look at it another way. Take the skill that has the highest % and consider that 100% and figure out the others value based on that.

I.e. If (X = 60% & Y = 30%) then (X = 100% & Y = 50%) or (2 x Y = 1 x X)

[AlphaGremlin]

I'm not sure what you mean by the hidden stat calculation, but the way I'm doing it (and I may be wrong, but Stamina and Health are spot on, so I'm doing something right), the flip point calculation is done BEFORE the Skills Guide figure comes into it.

They're simple division and multiplication calculations below the flip, so the order is not important, you can swap stuff around easily (thus Lupus is right below the flip, if I understand correctly).
The Skills Calculation ABOVE the flip point is not a simple divide and multiply though, so you can't rearrange them that easily. Above the flip, the figure from the Skills Guide is applied afterwards (ie: (Result of Flip Calculation) * Skills Guide Figure + other skill results = End Figure)

Regardless of the formulas specifics, the point I'm trying to make is that the relative values they have (the points they contribute towards something) are not exactly the values given here.
AlphaGremlin

[Dirus]

I'm not sure what you mean by the hidden stat calculation, but the way I'm doing it (and I may be wrong, but Stamina and Health are spot on, so I'm doing something right), the flip point calculation is done BEFORE the Skills Guide figure comes into it.

They're simple division and multiplication calculations below the flip, so the order is not important, you can swap stuff around easily (thus Lupus is right below the flip, if I understand correctly).
The Skills Calculation ABOVE the flip point is not a simple divide and multiply though, so you can't rearrange them that easily. Above the flip, the figure from the Skills Guide is applied afterwards (ie: (Result of Flip Calculation) * Skills Guide Figure + other skill results = End Figure)

Regardless of the formulas specifics, the point I'm trying to make is that the relative values they have (the points they contribute towards something) are not exactly the values given here.
AlphaGremlin

Are you taking into effect the base values in your calculations? Ie the fact all characters start with so much health?

Ans yes they are the values given here. These are ripped straight from the file that sets it.

[jernau]

It is. The aim of this guide is to show you what skills are involved in the calculations, and their relative value. If you want to look at it another way. Take the skill that has the highest % and consider that 100% and figure out the others value based on that.

I.e. If (X = 60% & Y = 30%) then (X = 100% & Y = 50%) or (2 x Y = 1 x X)

But then you've removed information .



@alpha - If the rate change is applied last you can reduce the number of calculations. You would need to have information that's hard to obtain by reverse-engineering though to get it working right. That doesn't mean your method is flawed, just that the game gets there by a different and more efficient route.

[AlphaGremlin]

Are you taking into effect the base values in your calculations? Ie the fact all characters start with so much health?

Ans yes they are the values given here. These are ripped straight from the file that sets it.

Yup, I have the base values in the calculations. And I'm saying that the values in whatever file you have are only the final part of the calcluation, and the flip point changes the values that go into it! I'll send you my excel file if you want, Lupus, and you can see for yourself! It has the calculations I have done for the Health, Stamina, PSI and Free Load.

Believe me, it took hours and hours with my calculator to work out what formula you guys used above the flip point, and then to work out the approximate flip points themselves. I reverse engineered nothing.

AlphaGremlin

[Momo Katzius]

@Lupus: What does this mean?

Neocron 2 Skills Guide

Remote Control:

Skill Factors involved: 0.6(60%) RCL + 0.3(30%) WPW

[Dirus]

Yup, I have the base values in the calculations. And I'm saying that the values in whatever file you have are only the final part of the calcluation, and the flip point changes the values that go into it! I'll send you my excel file if you want, Lupus, and you can see for yourself! It has the calculations I have done for the Health, Stamina, PSI and Free Load.

Believe me, it took hours and hours with my calculator to work out what formula you guys used above the flip point, and then to work out the approximate flip points themselves. I reverse engineered nothing.

AlphaGremlin

Well it's like this, I'm used to how the formulas are coded in this game, I've figured out enough of them and I have formula's from different things straight from the source code of the game. Thing is I'm also unable to discuss them as I'm under NDA on stuff like that. So unfortunately I won't be able to continue with a discussion like this.

As for the Drone stuff, I'll make all that a little clearer later on, possibly today tho I can't promise anything since I have to do some digging for that info.

[AlphaGremlin]

Well it's like this, I'm used to how the formulas are coded in this game, I've figured out enough of them and I have formula's from different things straight from the source code of the game. Thing is I'm also unable to discuss them as I'm under NDA on stuff like that. So unfortunately I won't be able to continue with a discussion like this.

As for the Drone stuff, I'll make all that a little clearer later on, possibly today tho I can't promise anything since I have to do some digging for that info.

No sweat mate I'm still interested in the Drone info though, waiting for that eagerly.
AlphaGremlin

[jernau]

Alpha - no offence but you really ought to look up "reverse engineering" as that's exactly what you did. It's quite an impressive feat to be fair considering the way NC works. I've considered doing it a few times and shuddered at the prospect.

[Dribble Joy]

I see what you're saying DJ, but while the idea is good in theory, the requirement for weaponlore alone does not appear to be the sole balancing factor for ranged weapons. Take comments from KK along the lines of "Rifles won't get AoE, they need some drawbacks" or words to that effect.. it implies that all rifles are very good, and that the high WPL requirements aren't enough to justify their range advantage? Yet clearly, the Pistol is more suited to PvP combat thanks in part to the more sensible line-up of weapon / damage types by TL.. so I can only assume that the increased significance of WPL for Pistol use is supposed to balance this out a bit more.

If nothing else, it's going to push a lot of Pistol PE's down a more specialised path, don't you think?

I am mainly talking about basic combat balance between the weapon systems.
AoE and other effects/bonuses are a separate issue and should (in general) be balanced seperately.
WEP is the primary stat in all weapon systems concerning range, thus it is the main skill that determines the 'arena of influence' that any given weapon system abides by, including melee (no WEP, 'no' range). The dissadvantage that a weapon system suffered from it's 'limit of exploitation' (nice military term there) was countered by the ability to spec other points, such as more psu, imp or hack.
By 'forcing' people to spec more WEP you will remove that.
The then increased combat power of the pistol users will be somewhat contested against, as virtually all combat is fought in close up.

I basically believe that all the weapon types should be equal in close combat, ability to extend thier influence beyond that should be represented by extra skilling.

Though pistols may be 'balanced' with rifles (in that pistol now spec as much WEP as riflers, and gain a more concentrated but short range offensive style countering the long range, slightly weaker rifles) it just feels awkward and riflers will become even less seen on the battle field.

The number of secondary tradeskills will also fall considerably, I don't know whether I will be a 115 poker anymore..

[StealthyAssassi]

[...] as virtually all combat is fought in close up.

I basically believe that all the weapon types should be equal in close combat, ability to extend thier influence beyond that should be represented by extra skilling.

Though pistols may be 'balanced' with rifles (in that pistol now spec as much WEP as riflers, and gain a more concentrated but short range offensive style countering the long range, slightly weaker rifles) it just feels awkward and riflers will become even less seen on the battle field.
[...]

OmG love your post and everything you say is what I feel, too. Makes sense.