http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...14/lowtech.png
More to come. This is taking much longer than expected.. lol
Printable View
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...14/lowtech.png
More to come. This is taking much longer than expected.. lol
Something to note on the Disruptor: All previous pulselaser rifles fire 3 shots in a burst. Why 4 for the Dissy?
Also, could we make the freezer rares on par with the DPM of TL 100 rares? Using a weapon with OK dmg, & an aiming speed debuff could easily be someone's strategy.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...techrifles.png
Found a slight problem here. While I do believe the fast firing weapons should do the most DPM, I think the gatlin pistols are doing a tad too much.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...echpistols.png
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bragi
Now let me take this statement and blow your minds.
The Judge and Disruptor should be able to compete, damage wise, even if they are 15TLs apart.
The reason for this is that giving these 2 weapons a huge damage gap will only contribute to having the lesser of the 2 ignored, at all times, just like it is now.
This is because, in the practical game, a runner using Judge will most likely be a PE with high resist, and the Dizzy will be used by a spy with low resist. The weapon mainskill requirement (and the setups/resists tied to it) will be the main balancing factor here.
In reality the damage output of the 2 weapons should be very close, they are both end-game, rare weapons after all.
I'd even say right now if you take my example the problem isnt with damage, it's with the fact the judge has a stupid short clip and so you reload all the time thus wrecking it's DPM. THIS IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE BALANCED !!! Not the damage vs TL curve...
You cannot simply take elements out of context and expect to acheive balance.
Do you guys even consider reload time in your DPM curve calculations ?
I havnt seen that value anywhere in your charts yet it is a determining factor.
Thats why resists/implants/shields/speed/clipping/heals - the whole defensive aspect - needs to be looked at first. Not DPM. You are working on something you need to work on again at a later point. And as all of the above posts already explained, TL should really not be the main factor in DPM calculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
We are still pondering what to do with the freezer weapons. Don't worry about them at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevendust
There are two things here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevendust
Firstly, the displayed frequency values are not that precise. It's old code that we have yet to update. I know this doesn't exactly help you guys when testing, but the raw instant damage values we can compare to our own theoretical data.
Secondly,
Yes we factor reload times. These are not factored in the displayed frequency values unfortunately.Quote:
Do you guys even consider reload time in your DPM curve calculations ?
This means that high RoF, short clip weapons like the gatlin pistols seem, from the ingame data, to be overpowered.
And they will do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
The DPM curve is for a given set of combat sub-skill values. As sub-skills alter, so does the curve.
Once the other implant/armour changes are sorted out, a player using a dissy will have lower sub-skills than a Judge user (if all other setup factors are equal) and thus the same DPM.
Or they may choose to have the same sub-skills as the dissy user, have a lower DPM, but higher defences.
The changes we have just made are to that base DPM curve and we want to make sure it's working.
For once, I agree with Faulk.Quote:
Originally Posted by slith
On the weapon topic also, the balancing needs to start from the lowest end-game weapon available, which in turn means you need to look at PEs first. If you dont use PE as baseline, you will never be able to balance them properly.
You guys need to make up your mid about which non-rare weapons can be used on the end-game PE setups, and then balance other weapons and classes around that. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND AS YOU ARE DOING CURRENTLY.
Then weapons characteristics needs to be looked at BEFORE you change things lile damage.
In my opinion all the works you guys did for balancing in this patch is useless and needs to be rolled back, because it obviously created more issues than anything else (heals, fall damage)
We once had a shooting range setup on Sparta. I'll bug the responsible people to set one up on Vedeena as soon as possible also :) and we'll notify everyone once that's done :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jj dynomite
We will also look at the stacking damage. At the moment it seems like I might have forgotten a factor 1/60 there.
Concerning the combat logs: head to your Neocron folder, open the neocron.ini file and append: ENABLELOGS = "TRUE" at the end. Once you want to disable it either remove the line or replace TRUE by FALSE.
Slauncha,
Alduin
What's wrong with buffing pe armour later on? Absolutely nothing actually.
Seems to me that the certain few posting here dont know the current problem with weapons..
*Creed & Healing Light = Dmg isn't registered sometimes when someone moves in between you & your target between the start & end of the burst, -or- if your target was not in front of you server-side.
*Executioner = Has the same range effect as the fusion RIFLES & does little damage up close.
*Judge = Seems like a 50-70% chance NO damage will register if 1 shot out of the 2 shot burst misses.
*First Love = Seems like a ~40% chance NO damage will register if 1 shot out of the 2 shot burst misses.
*APU spells = Seems like a 50-60% chance the spell will take twice as long to cast when you had a lock on your target
*Ray of God & Ray of Last Hope = Similar effect as the creed & healing light where no damage is registered.
Among these are 4 high TL spy weapons, & 3 acquirable PE weapons. & pretty much all APU weapons. These are the things that need to be FIXED so people have more options to choose. While I understand the LoS problem with the creed, HL, RoG & ROLH isn't an easy one & has been attempted to fix, there has to be something somewhere in a past patch that can help explain what caused these weapons to START doing this. I do know though, APU spells started doing this after the APU aiming change. At the very least, APU spells & the executioner should be easy fixes.
Well, the PEs and hybrid being the in-between to standard classes, it is much simpler in my opinion to balance those first.
Think about it for 2 minutes and you might understand my point :
Theyre gonna fix their linear TL-damage curve for weapons and then realise that, say, the Tangent Plasma Cannon is not usable on a PE because its TL being so low compared to CS so it will not be viable.
Effectively it is about 20 TLs under CS so its damage (considering a linear TL-damage curve) will be about 1/5 lower than the CS.
Now in the practical game, a self-buffed HC PE and tank's resist are very similar, so the HC pe will do dramatically low damage compared to the tank.
Same logic applies to hybrids.
I imagine the team that did 2.2 tried something similar to what these guys are trying right now and it gave the results we hae now. Hybrids are shit, and so are PEs.
Problem with ammo:
*Laser pistol powercell & laser pistol high-voltage powercell both have the same damage.
*Freezer pistol ammo & Freezer pistol max damage ammo both have the same damage.
*Raygun pistol ammo & Raygun high-frequented ammo both have the same damage.
The changes are not final, we know there are problems with aspects outside those that we want to test to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
Also, we are aiming for weapons of TL75+ for PvP viability. This is mostly the lower limit for PEs. Other classes we are looking at TL95+.
PEs and Hybrids are not 'pure' classes. They draw too much from other areas that they are not the base-line classes, but the exceptions and harder to compensate for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
Again you are assuming too little will change. As we have repeated all too often, more will change than you think. Discount what implant and armour values the game currently offers. Forget what Psi benefits the PE currently gets.Quote:
Theyre gonna fix their linear TL-damage curve for weapons and then realise that, say, the Tangent Plasma Cannon is not usable on a PE because its TL being so low compared to CS so it will not be viable.
Effectively it is about 20 TLs under CS so its damage (considering a linear TL-damage curve) will be about 1/5 lower than the CS.
Now in the practical game, a self-buffed HC PE and tank's resist are very similar, so the HC pe will do dramatically low damage compared to the tank.
It is all up for change.
The DPM/TL curve is only linear from TL75 onwards; the DPM drop from 105 to 84 is less than 18%.
Some things to note: #1: Why is it that none of the pistols, low-tech or high-tech, are above TL 113?
#2: Again, executioner (All fusion pistols) needs that range effect removed for it to be useful.
#3: plasma pistols appear to be fairly balanced, though they could use a tiny damage increase & the not-registering-dmg thing to be fixed.
#4: With all these rare pistols being lower TL...why not spread them out a bit? Make the slasher a Spy weapon like it used to be (higher TL). Bring the executioner up to being TL 115?
PE weapons are mainly the ion shotgun rifle, termi, pain easer, tsu assault rifle, tl 92 pulaselaser pistol, judge, crossbow, Ray of Last Hope, Ray of God, freeman, slasher, IAR-47, etc. anything up to TL 108.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...echpistols.png
I completely agree with the PEs not being pure. The jack of all trades class. Almost tank-like armor, decently high INT & CON, access to defensive PSI spells, etc. Ie: I currently have a PE that can resurrect, use blessed protector & deflector, & PSI shield, but can only use up to TL 97 weapons (with a drug going). As it stands PEs are pretty balanced. They just need the plasma pistols, fusion pistols, assault rifles, and shotguns to be fixed. (Terminator used to do ALOT of force when force-modded. Now in 2.2 it doesnt, even though armor was changed so there's less in each part of the body, & PRC was divided so resist force is a completely seperate resist now. Yet, the termi...and pain easer does less dmg than it used to somehow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bragi
HYBRIDS on the other hand, are barely even useful in PvE. I used to be a main hybrid in 2.1. I dont get why they were nerfed further from what they used to be. O.o:
#1: Implants were changed so hybrid setups were near impossible, AND this also screwed main ppu & apu classes. Ie: level 3 chip that used to give +15 apu or ppu & a negative of ~7 to apu or ppu, NOW only gives +10, & a negative of 8 to apu or ppu. And the RARE PSI implants? lol giving a bonus of 7.69??? every other class gets 15. and a negative of 6.5 on the rare psi imps???....you see what I'm getting at with this.
#2: Greatly increasing the negative to damage % on spells from having points in the opposite combat COMBINED with point #1, completely screwed over hybrids.
If the negative is lowered, and the PSI implants are brought back to be equal to rifle/pistol implants, how they used to be, hybrids would be a possibility, and PURE apus & ppus would be alot easier. Also, this wouldnt make them OP in any way. Still killable by anyone 1v1, and would basically be a PSI version of a Private Eye at OP wars. (No ability to antibuff or antiheal, and PE-equivalent dmg) I can link my 2.1 Hybrid PvP video showing how evenly matched I was vs 1 PE if needed....
That's where a blessed damageboost comes into play. I tested on TITAN during these tests, and my LIB did 147 instead of 122 after applying a blessed damageboost. Also the PE can stealth. ALSO, if you're going to compare a class, compare it to all classes and not just one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame