Patch R#232-T#80

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08-08-17, 17:40
Aegir

Patch R#232-T#80
A new Patch is available for Vedeena!

Balancing
- Armor and Resistance efficiency changed
  This is a huge change for both PvE and PvP - and is far from finished. The efficiency of armor compared to resists has been reduced alot. Please test extensively and report any weapons/classes/setups/damagetypes that fall out of line.
- Slight damage reduction for Psi Attack Modules and Baseball Bats, performance of pure force weaponry was too good on certain targets
- Damage of all vehicles reduced
- Anti-Air and Anti-Vehicle Launchers damage against vehicles has been increased significantly, lowered against players
- STR based AoE weaponry and mini Rocket Launcher have recieved a major increase in accuracy, their damage has been lowered a bit to compensate.
- Projectile speeds of rockets, fusion and ray projectiles have been increased (Malediction, Doom Beamer, Moon Striker, Mini Rocket Launcher, etc...)
- AoE drones damage reduced a bit
- Vehicle gunner seat weapons STR and Subskill requirements reduced:
  - Laser Cannon is now STR 78 (was 90)
  - 30mm Cannon is now STR 67 (was 75)
  - Adv. 30mm Cannon is now STR 71 (was 85)
  - 20mm Cannon is now STR 39 (was 61)
  - Adv. 20mm Cannon is now STR 76 (was 79)
  - Rocket Launcher is now STR 49 (was 68)
  - DoY Rocket Launcher is now STR 73 (was 92)
  - DoY Gatling Cannon is now STR 71 (was 82)
  - Double Rocket Launcher is now STR 20 (was 24)
  - Raygun Cannon is now STR 88 (was 96)
  - DoY Improved Gatling Cannon is now 78 (was 84)
- NPC Damage has been reduced across the board
- NPC Health has seen an overall reduction, especially for BR < 40 *¹
Known Issues
- 1) This step has not worked like intended, fix is on the way!
Please note: All weapons (and vehicles) damage output is subject to change once resists/armor have been adjusted to reasonable levels - aiming for a roughly identical time to kill (in pvp) as Titan currently. NPC health and damage output will be looked at after doing that.
08-08-17, 23:42
PaIn_EaSeR1337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegir

A new Patch is available for Vedeena!

Balancing

Armor and Resistance efficiency changed
This is a huge change for both PvE and PvP - and is far from finished. The efficiency of armor compared to resists has been reduced alot. Please test extensively and report any weapons/classes/setups/damagetypes that fall out of line.
Slight damage reduction for Psi Attack Modules and Baseball Bats, performance of pure force weaponry was too good on certain targets
Damage of all vehicles reduced
Anti-Air and Anti-Vehicle Launchers damage against vehicles has been increased significantly, lowered against players
STR based AoE weaponry and mini Rocket Launcher have recieved a major increase in accuracy, their damage has been lowered a bit to compensate.
Projectile speeds of rockets, fusion and ray projectiles have been increased (Malediction, Doom Beamer, Moon Striker, Mini Rocket Launcher, etc...)
AoE drones damage reduced a bit
Vehicle gunner seat weapons STR and Subskill requirements reduced:

Laser Cannon is now STR 78 (was 90)
30mm Cannon is now STR 67 (was 75)
Adv. 30mm Cannon is now STR 71 (was 85)
20mm Cannon is now STR 39 (was 61)
Adv. 20mm Cannon is now STR 76 (was 79)
Rocket Launcher is now STR 49 (was 68)
DoY Rocket Launcher is now STR 73 (was 92)
DoY Gatling Cannon is now STR 71 (was 82)
Double Rocket Launcher is now STR 20 (was 24)
Raygun Cannon is now STR 88 (was 96)
DoY Improved Gatling Cannon is now 78 (was 84)
NPC Damage has been reduced across the board
NPC Health has seen an overall reduction, especially for BR < 40 *¹

Known Issues

1) This step has not worked like intended, fix is on the way!
Well done loosing more players.
09-08-17, 01:05
Aegir

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaIn_EaSeR1337

Well done loosing more players.

Do you mind giving me more information? What do you think is bad change? Have you tested the change?
09-08-17, 01:58
Drake6k

Goodbye Neocron. We had a lot of good times. Aegir should be fired. No, I'm not going to explain further or test this shit.

Say hi to Bob for me.
09-08-17, 02:50
Aegir

Added some clarification to the end of the post.

I cannot read minds - sorry. My guess is your issue is with vehicle damage? If so, some of the vehicles damage output ended up higher than on Titan currently. And will see further adjustment before any release.
09-08-17, 02:57
bmurph101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aegir

Added some clarification to the end of the post.

I cannot read minds - sorry. My guess is your issue is with vehicle damage? If so, some of the vehicles damage output ended up higher than on Titan currently. And will see further adjustment before any release.

Have the stats for the new Melee weapons been worked on at all yet? Or do they still have their placeholder values from the DG and PoB, respectively?
09-08-17, 03:58
gstyle40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake6k

Aegir should be fired. No, I'm not going to explain further or test this shit.

Say hi to Bob for me.

a bit harsh dont ya think?
09-08-17, 04:00
gstyle40

if i can get on pts, ill help.
09-08-17, 04:10
Aegir
Quote:

Originally Posted by gstyle40

if i can get on pts, ill help.

If nothing unexpected happens i'll be online for (european times) tomorrow afternoon and late into the night. I'd appreciate some help.

Things im particularly interested in:
- How do the different damage types compare to each other, is there something that falls out of line (e.g. Piercing weaponry as a whole overperforming)?
- Is there any class or setup combination that turns out way stronger/weaker than others?
- Do certain classes or setups have too high or too low resistances against a specific damage type? (e.g. Spies suck too hard against fire based weaponry)
Just contact me in discord when you have time.
09-08-17, 09:19
William Antrim

For me this looks positive on the surface. I guess digging into it it will be a lot different.
09-08-17, 10:24
bobhoskins

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake6k

Goodbye Neocron. We had a lot of good times. Aegir should be fired. No, I'm not going to explain further or test this shit.

Say hi to Bob for me.

Just jack drake throwing his toys out the pram again because he wants be able to get cheap ganks with one click.
He said the same last time around when the woc launchers were nerfed and kami drones... Then shortly returned as he understands the nerf was appropriate as the damage fell out of line regarding balance. Some players just like a way to get cheap kills, no problem with that but they need to be balanced correctly.
09-08-17, 11:16
Zoltan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake6k

Goodbye Neocron. We had a lot of good times. Aegir should be fired. No, I'm not going to explain further or test this shit.

Say hi to Bob for me.

Goodbye Drake6k. I'll take it as a leave-thread.

@everyone - This is a testserver update NOT retail and it's also still work in progress as aegir stated before.
10-08-17, 20:40
Strafinmir

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoltan

Goodbye Drake6k. I'll take it as a leave-thread.

@everyone - This is a testserver update NOT retail and it's also still work in progress as aegir stated before.

Hopefully it doesn't get pushed through until extensive testing is done then. We don't need more reactionary nerf updates.

For example Kami Drones damage was nerfed because they were hitting more that once, and that i think is the case with all AoE weapons currently including the bomber. More work should be done in fixing the bug where the explosives are hitting more than once instead of decreasing the damage output of the weapons to negate the times that they DO hit more than once/ The Anti-vehicle weapon buff has still not hit retail where the real numbers will likely be gathered because a lot of people don't get on test server, We need the Anti-Vehicle weapons properly tested before we implement any changes to vehicles.

Fights between some classes right now in RETAIL are brutally short, and fights between others are so long they get boring.

I'm not trying to be a Buzzkill but we CANNOT keep testing such a huge volume of changes. I can't even get PTS working at the moment. Changes need to happen incrementally to one specific area of the game at a time, If we keep having these broad changes to all the numbers things are just going to keep getting messier. If we want to focus on Explosive weapons and one class lets work on that as well as the vehicles that fire explosives like the Assault Glider, Bomber and Rhino v3. But the kind of damage the direct damage vehicles do should be addressed when we're looking at Direct Damage weapons or more specifically Piercing or Energy damage. Things also need to be looked at froma practical standpoint. Testing damage alone is not going to balance things, you have to look at what class is going to be using that weapons primarily, what their movement speed is like, how fast the crosshair closes, and all of this needs to be done with characters that are built like they would be in the game, testing things with 255 or whatever in every stat is unrealistic.

To make testing easier we need and area with NPC's that move around and have resists similar to players int he game, have an area with NPC's without "buff resits" then one with NPC's that do. Vehicle weapons needs to be tested IN THE VEHICLE, Not using a gun that fires with the damage of the vehicle weapon. A lot of people are not happy right now. I understand we're trying something new but we need more communication with the community, and the COMMUNITY needs to stop flaming NST over hypothetical situations as well as NST needs to be more receptive to people like Josh and James that do a lot of testing and number crunching that could be working directly with you guys.

Once again I am more than willing to help with things(Models, Code, Animations, MEDIATING), I know i said i'd be working on models and I still am, I'm just handling the aftermath of a family emergency right now and moving. FISHING POLE COMING SOON.

Also please port Neocron to Vulkan and stop pursuing DirectX 11 this will help a lot with performance.( I can help with this) We need to properly test the light emitting Particles and Alpha Masking and not just passively dismiss the performance issues they're causing, primarily the fire particles. Dismissing it as Me being on Linux doesn't really seem acceptable when the Canyon is destroying people's FPS right now. I should never dip below 60FPS on a GTX 970, and my other machine has a 1070 now it's also taking huge frame drops when fire particles are rendered, as well as 20FPS drops in the Plaze and Via Sectors withlots of windows.
11-08-17, 10:03
Zoltan

Just a sidenote: The last time I have worked on the Engine-Fork in our VCS was around x-mas.
As I stated it before many many times the vast of the graphical stuff is made on the CPU not not on the GPU.
It doesn't matter if you use DX9, DX11, or whatever API as long you don't use it the right way.

The fork has a mix of dx9 and dx11 for testing stuff but the primary goal there was to implement the needed basics.... material pipelines, light informations etc ... - Yes, that stuff is non existant on the retail branch and without that all APIs are more or less useless.

Z
15-08-17, 19:22
Odimara Orca

Why would you lower Armor resists further they are already highly ineffectibe compared to skill resists?

Why were Hybrid/APU damage and the broken aim mechanics of psi modules not adressed?
16-08-17, 05:00
gstyle40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odimara Orca

Why would you lower Armor resists further they are already highly ineffectibe compared to skill resists?

this is incorrect, currently...I think with the 2.3 launch armor became much more important than con resist. It has been tweaked so that its not so different, but its still needs help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Odimara Orca

Why were Hybrid/APU damage and the broken aim mechanics of psi modules not adressed?

im sure they will address this....soon :D
16-08-17, 23:41
Odimara Orca

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstyle40

this is incorrect, currently...I think with the 2.3 launch armor became much more important than con resist. It has been tweaked so that its not so different, but its still needs help.

Imo Con resists are still way more effective than armor setups.

But that might be bias.
17-08-17, 11:31
bobhoskins

[ edited ]
10-09-17, 14:46
greensoldier

I think much in here is a good idea! The one thing that really surprises me the most is the resist change (primarily for player verse player)... I don't have PvP runners in every single class, however, so perhaps that would explain my confusion.

The force damage damage reduction: I guess what strikes this as funny to me is that I've never heard anyone complain about getting hit by a baseball bat in game... From either friend or enemy. It's unclear to me if this statement meant to affect all baseball bats or just the best ones. The Psi Attack module was definitely used a lot in PvP that I saw, so I understand why that drew attention to itself.

Vehicle damage reduced: I think you are really meaning to say damage across the board will be rescaled. So that would be a net change of zero, practically speaking.

STR AoE accuracy majorly increase and damage slightly decreased: I think the increase in accuracy makes tons of sense. Wars would never be fought with weapons as inaccurate as what we have had (see rocket launchers) in NC. This sounds interesting, and good, with a caveat; hopefully the WoC rocket launcher is as good or better (in some aspect) than the moon striker. Sad that it's so awful at this time... WoC weapons may be the hardest to obtain, so it would be nice if their damage output reflects this.

Vehicle requirements lowered: this seems to benefit PEs the most...and spy's can now use the 20 mm cannon. The guy who introduced me to NC 9 months ago was always disgusted that spy's invented vehicles that only tanks could use (ok, some PEs if you tried hard). Pulling the trigger requiring strength always seemed a bit odd, unless the gun has massive recoil? That was his argument, and I think it has some merit. If only the rhino v3 got a spy mounted gun too.... Then spies would have an awesome vehicle they could gun too (like an APC I guess?). Overall, this change is excellent, o would be in favour of taking it even further.

NPC damage/health reduced: this is in line with rescaling of damage, and this is long overdue. We don't have percentages so it's really impossible for us the public to comment on without extensive testing.

Anti vehicle launchers: excellent, sounds great! I wouldnt mind a slow-ish reload time and a high burst of damage, personally.

Summary:
Great, let's see these changes move to retail sooner over later. Could even do the changes in modules, really, if some sections are ready.