Implant and armour roundup

The implant and armour rework has been on Vedeena for a while now.
We'd like to get some more general feedback before things are taken forward.

Like many areas, implants and armour will be a long-term balancing process. That said, we need to find any glaring issues.

Now, while all of the different 'layers' of a character's setup and the whole balancing project are interconnected - and everything here has been done with that in mind - we'd like you to respond on this area in isolation.

The intention of the new implant system, and by extension the new armours, is that it allows you to choose a weapon that you want to use (for whatever reason) and build a viable setup around it.
That said, the weapons (on Vedeena) are not in a good situation, so testing the implants and armour as a facilitator for that purpose is always going to be difficult.

So there are a few areas I'd like to get feedback on.


Main skill vs subskill:

A key choice is higher TL vs higher sub-skill and/or armour. Be that higher primary dmg skill, resists, speed or a Str boost to use the next level of armour.
Is +5 main-skill equal to +20 primary dmg skill? Should it be +25 or +15 for example?
Are the resist chips (which give +45 total resist) too powerful?


Lower total sub-skills:

An issue with the move from NC2 to current retail was the significant increase in available sub-skill values, which we have grown used to. Especially having high sub-skills and high main-skills. The new system allows higher bonuses in both areas but not at once - a choice has to be made.
While that does not necessarily matter if everyone is in the same boat, there are some issues that arise from a lower sub-skill system; namely the effect that sub-skills have on certain areas of performance.

Areas of note:
Aiming: Are your aiming % values notably off cap? I don't mean 240%, I mean 150-200%
HP: Many of the bonuses and negatives of the implants have been chosen with decent changes in mind. Do they seem significant or not?


Rare/MC5 implants:

These are the best implants, but are they worth it over their non-rare counterparts? Are they too powerful perhaps? (the Synaptic Accelerator give +30 sub-skill over the Co-Ord 3 for example).


Power Armour:

Which armours do you tend to gravitate towards and why? Which seem redundant to you?
Do you see any of the 'experimental' versions (ones with a name like Juggernaut or Tsunami) as being of use in either PvP or PvE?


Redundant implants:

Any of these seem useless for PvP or PvE?
The cyber eyes, psi defence and resistor, persistence and movement implants in particular.


Anything else?

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Originally Posted by Bragi

Main skill vs subskill:

A key choice is higher TL vs higher sub-skill and/or armour. Be that higher primary dmg skill, resists, speed or a Str boost to use the next level of armour.
Is +5 main-skill equal to +20 primary dmg skill? Should it be +25 or +15 for example?
Are the resist chips (which give +45 total resist) too powerful?

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Let me point to movement speed (ath+agl) as a main PvP fighting skill, along with offence (damage) and defence (resists+hlt). Balancing damage vs resists wouldnt do. I can well imagine imps or armour giving boni on both damage and resists/hlt, but reducing ath/agl - which would make that char more of a classic-RPG "tank" but a well-armed "rogue".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bragi

Rare/MC5 implants:

These are the best implants, but are they worth it over their non-rare counterparts? Are they too powerful perhaps? (the Synaptic Accelerator give +30 sub-skill over the Co-Ord 3 for example).

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MC 5 chips dont need vast advantages over L3. Dedicated players will seek to use them anyways for getting the best setup available.

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Originally Posted by Bragi

Power Armour:

Which armours do you tend to gravitate towards and why? Which seem redundant to you?
Do you see any of the 'experimental' versions (ones with a name like Juggernaut or Tsunami) as being of use in either PvP or PvE?

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Just give us customizing options: i want a dark red rifle spy PA and a vivid green pistol PE PA, regardless of any game mechanic values.

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Originally Posted by Bragi

Redundant implants:

Any of these seem useless for PvP or PvE?
The cyber eyes, psi defence and resistor, persistence and movement implants in particular.

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Tradeskillers desperately need more implants. cyber eyes could be smaller version of todays DOY eyes, psi resistors/defence could take away psi skill and giv res/con/rec instead.

Regarding MC5 chips I still want them to be equal to the normal rare/epic implants, just with a neat bonus.

Like having 50 REC to a combat chip or VHC or whatever. MC5s should be side-grades.

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Originally Posted by Torg

Let me point to movement speed (ath+agl) as a main PvP fighting skill, along with offence (damage) and defence (resists+hlt). Balancing damage vs resists wouldnt do. I can well imagine imps or armour giving boni on both damage and resists/hlt, but reducing ath/agl - which would make that char more of a classic-RPG "tank" but a well-armed "rogue".

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Kinda what was in mind when I made the Juggernaut armour.

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Tradeskillers desperately need more implants. cyber eyes could be smaller version of todays DOY eyes, psi resistors/defence could take away psi skill and giv res/con/rec instead.

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The issue with tradeskill imps is that they can easily bring about content creep. What sort of setup choices can be made when cster or resser has a primary function to the near exclusion of anything else?
Would an eye that gave +20 cst but -30 rec/rep be considered?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bragi

The issue with tradeskill imps is that they can easily bring about content creep. What sort of setup choices can be made when cster or resser has a primary function to the near exclusion of anything else?
Would an eye that gave +20 cst but -30 rec/rep be considered?

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capping a char by using tradeskills is a pain (cst+res should yield more xp, at least twice/+100%) compared to PvE, so most pppl would give up and follow the well-known path of drone-grinding that char to cap and re-lom it to trader. trader imps could ease that problem by providing a boost to cst and res. Both skills require very high skill levels for getting acceptable results, unlike rep or rec. we dont need rep or rec imps as much as cst and res ones.

and no, i wouldnt consider an eye reducing skills on an important side-skill, as most traders will work both under INT and DEX. it would be nice if additional low- and midrange trader imps would allow a wider variety of playstyles. like a pistol constructor, hunting for weapon parts (you need zero wep for pistol PvE), grenade-launching scientist (a fun combination) or low-tech recycler-gentank.

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Originally Posted by Torg

and no, i wouldnt consider an eye reducing skills on an important side-skill, as most traders will work both under INT and DEX.

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What I mean is; Would you sacrifice a side-skill for greater main-skill?

Obviously this creates greater specialisation in an already highly specialised area of the game, and implants can be swapped out on a tradskiller far more readily than a combat char.
Where do people think there is capacity for setup variation for tradeskillers?

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it would be nice if additional low- and midrange trader imps would allow a wider variety of playstyles. like a pistol constructor, hunting for weapon parts (you need zero wep for pistol PvE), grenade-launching scientist (a fun combination) or low-tech recycler-gentank.

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I might explore some options for the Int eyes.

If const-res imps would further speed up const res process, I would poke them even if I would know that I can 5 slot anything already.

BRT has no implants at all beside starter one for example.

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Originally Posted by Bragi

Power Armour:

Which armours do you tend to gravitate towards and why? Which seem redundant to you?
Do you see any of the 'experimental' versions (ones with a name like Juggernaut or Tsunami) as being of use in either PvP or PvE?

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I'm new to the test server, but enjoying exploring the changes so far.

My feedback for this reply is mostly for Private Eye power armor.

The Tangent Heavy 'Tsunami' Powerskin V2.3
This thing gives -5 dex and +5 str, while still being a rifle and pistol PA.
Was this designed to be used with the Experimental Ballistic Chip (+5 dex, -5 str, +20 pistol/rifle)?
I'd consider this over the camo PA for the agility, but the resists seem worse. Maybe have this thing give an extra 5 pistol/rifle to go with the ballistic chip theme of high weapon combat; you could also consider adding a bunch of weapon lore, giving PEs more freedom to spend int on something else, which is hard to do right now.

Tangent Power Combat Battlesuit V-20
60 str req, PE PA. This thing is awesome. +6 str with +heavy and +melee, making I believe 89 str possible on a PE without drugs (wonderful! I believe it is currently 82 on live). This opens up fun builds, but only if the rares are buffed to be viable enough for pvp; I really want to use rare knuckles on a PE without it being a complete joke.

Tangent Hazard Cyberskin v1.2 and Tangent Hazard Hyperdermis v1.2
These are my favorite PE PAs. Both req 75 dex and PE class. I prefer the no-PA look and these two deliver; only problem is with certain gun models getting embedded in my back (termi, pain easer). The only differences between these two PAs is the Cyberskin gives 30 fire, 30 xray, 30 poison, 6 Dex and the Hyperdermis gives the same except dropping the 6 dex for 20 athletics and 20 agility. I'd use the atl/agl one in a second on a <99 dex build.

Prototype 'Thunder' Power Battlesuit V-35
This thing gives -20 atl and -20 agl, so it sucks (you NEED speed in Neocron). I don't understand the 15 transport either. It seems like tons of new stuff has transport on it as a kind of "quality of life" improvement, could use more endurance too. Anyway, this thing isn't as good as the others, mostly unusable due to speed loss. I guess this thing is the only other PE PA that gives 6 dex, but I'd rather have the other one.

PE Camo PA
No longer nerfs atl which is great. Well rounded and looks like one of the best for a PE.

PE Regant PA
Same as the Camo except gives xray/fire/poison instead of force/fire/poison. Fantastic armor.
PE Str Regants is incredible, high resists, love it, not overpowered at all.
Both versions of the Camo and Regant PAs seem good (one has no dex or weapon combat other has higher resists)

PA I'd like to see
Another STR PE PA that doesn't change your appearance, call it berserker armor or something.

I was able to reach 111 dex unbuffed as a PE and hit 116 with redflash, still getting +20 agility. I hope the drugs get rebalanced somehow, because now PEs can use every single rifle/pistol; I'll check out the drug thread again soon. I'd suggest making drugs shorter duration for testing crazy stuff and putting on gear.

I really enjoy making builds and that was my motivation for going on the test server. I want lower dex (<101) builds to be viable again for PEs and to try out some weird STR builds if the weapons get buffed. I'm still looking at the implants and will have feedback for those, such as the Moveon still sucks and the Hardenbackbone only giving transport is bad.

Bragi can you give us a Spreadsheet or a SQL Dump with the Tables with the Current values for the Items?

I can orient myself better in all the Changes (and after that Test properly) If i have the Data.

Thanks!

Also i like the direction you take with the PA's

But the values seem a bit over the top sometimes.

Also, shouldn't PA's generally have a Malus on Agility and Athletics but a Mainskill bonus instead? I mean thats the trade off you make when wearing underwear: No speed malus but also no Mainskill Bonus.

Regards

Odi

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Originally Posted by Odimara Orca

Bragi can you give us a Spreadsheet or a SQL Dump with the Tables with the Current values for the Items?

I can orient myself better in all the Changes (and after that Test properly) If i have the Data.

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I agree. It was hard for me to present my input without having all of the data available here. I thought about taking screenshots of each PA, but that's a lot of work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Odimara Orca

Also, shouldn't PA's generally have a Malus on Agility and Athletics but a Mainskill bonus instead? I mean thats the trade off you make when wearing underwear: No speed malus but also no Mainskill Bonus.

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There is a tank PA that gives -50 agility and -50 athletics, called the Juggernaut (also gives 80 resists and 30 weapon combat) and I think that is awesome. It does make sense to me that the PA models would move slower due to their size, but always with an exception or two. I find people wearing PA easier to hit, but I do not know if they have larger hit boxes. I'm only afraid of PA having movement speed loss because right now on the live game there are no viable "underwear" options.

The one PE underwear that gives +6 dex is an exception and I do like the variety it adds; without weapon combat I don't feel it is game breaking; you still need higher weapon combat with higher TL weapons.

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Originally Posted by Drake6k

I agree. It was hard for me to present my input without having all of the data available here. I thought about taking screenshots of each PA, but that's a lot of work.


There is a tank PA that gives -50 agility and -50 athletics, called the Juggernaut (also gives 80 resists and 30 weapon combat) and I think that is awesome. It does make sense to me that the PA models would move slower due to their size, but always with an exception or two. I find people wearing PA easier to hit, but I do not know if they have larger hit boxes. I'm only afraid of PA having movement speed loss because right now on the live game there are no viable "underwear" options.

The one PE underwear that gives +6 dex is an exception and I do like the variety it adds; without weapon combat I don't feel it is game breaking; you still need higher weapon combat with higher TL weapons.

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The Juggernaut is fine by me.

But I still think going with PA = + Mainskill, - Movement and Underwear = +Subskills, no downside is a smart design decision and should be kept!

@Bragi

Had a look at the experimental / gamma bones. Please be careful with malusses on movement speed with these implants.As it stands now the experimental / gamma bones are useless in pvp.

Actually I don't think Bones need serious drawbacks. I'm quite happy with how they are on retail.

A quick glances at Eyes / Hearts / Backbones / normal Brain Implants: I think they are good like this!!!

Edit3: You don't need to bother with malusses on the DOY Eyes, they're hard enough to get. Just make it an even 20 Bonus :-)!

Edit4: PA's with color. I fucking love you! :lol:

Edit5: Great job with the experimental reflexbooster / Heart. Maybe go to -7 (lvl1) and -15 (lvl2)?
Also Please: Remove the Agility Malus on the Recycle Glove! This thing is just to important for Tanks.

Edit6: Rare Implants seem good as Well

Are Marine CPU, Special Forces CPU thought for PE's to reach high TL weapons? I think the other classes will reach tl115 quite easily with all the other Implant Options.

How does the Psi-Core CPU fit in here? Also for PE's?

Final Edit:

- Implants look good, Tweak a few things like suggested.
- Please use malusses on AGL/ATH less.

My suggestion on Armour:

PA should have movement Drawback but Mainskill, Combat and Resist Bonus
Underwear should have a (smaller) Combat and (comparable) Resist Bonus, no drawbacks

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Odimara Orca

Underwear should have a (smaller) Combat and (comparable) Resist Bonus, no drawbacks

Thanks!

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Scrap that, make it a Hard Choice:

Underwear should have a (smaller) Combat and (smaller) Resist Bonus, no drawbacks