Antibuff - remove it from PPU - give it to everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Brammers

Antibuffs have existed in NC1, and was a weapon used by the APU. In 2.2 KK changed it so it could be used only by a PPU. It's probably just as well the anti-buff role got move to the PPU as APU's are too weak atm. (However APU's balance is another topic in itself!)

However at the end of the day, I prefer the anti-buff being limited as it is now. I really don't want to get into a fight to find myself anti-buffed every 5 seconds and having to get myself buffed again (That include self-buffing)

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The thing is Brammers, what William is saying (and I can totally believe is true) is that right now, people bring along PPUs to do nothing but antibuff. So you see lots of antibuffing happening, and you also see many more PPUs than seems to make any sense.

Oh, and monk-o-cron is an ever present threat. Remember that before 2.2, APUs were well down the heirarchy of 1 vs 1 classes (Something along the lines of: Hybrid, Drugged PE, Drugged Spy/PE/Tank, APU, Spy). Yet when it came to OP fights and similar, nothing stopped the APU/PPU combo.


I really don't see most of your logic with what you are arguing here William. The stronger you make PPUs, and the more easy you make it to remove buffs again, the more importance you place on having a 1:1 fighter:PPU setup (once PPUs have lost AB and para, it's never going to make much sense to go past this point, the way it seems it can at the moment). The way to reduce the reliance on PPUs is to make them weaker, not stronger, but able to support more people. So you reduce the strength of foreign shields from the current 30% to say, 20%, but make shields last 10 minutes rather than 3 (and degrade slower too) Or make group buffs easier to use - whatever lets a single PPU support more people. If you want to make fights without PPUs viable, then you need to make it so that a single PPU arriving doesn't tip the scales like it does now - it's just the (roughly) effect of one more person showing up.

Edit @ Doc:
Well yeah, player skill is always going to vary. Not everyone will have or is going to be willing to play the "optimal" - hell, NC has always kinda fetishised playing known-sub-optimal builds as a way of showing off. But we can say from past experience that over time, the bulk of the player base will gravitate towards whatever seems to work best - or at least work easiest. I don't think 10 APU + 10PPU in pairs was ever the "optimal" in 2.0/2.1, but it was increasingly what was seen and what won control of most of the map.
That said, this discussion isn't really mathematical - it's just trying to see what behavior is encouraged/discouraged by the changes being suggested. You don't want to push people into any one optimal too much, or reward "unfun"/punish "fun" play. To an extent preserving variety is what we're seeking here.

Anyway, the general agreement seems to be that it would be best for PPUs to lose antibuff. What (if anything) should replace that is more the debate. I've got my idea of what I think would be best (a new style of APU) - but without playing, it's kinda hard to tell.

What if the rare shields had a group shield effect added? Would this make things easier/better?

In NC1 I saw one clan use the group shields effectively. TJ - on Uranus. They used to gather up around their ppu at an alotted time and he would group shield in a clock face formation with everyone in range. This worked for them.

Perhaps if the PPU was given this capability along with a reduction in defensive power of foreign cast shields and more antibuffs being available to others this would provide a more level playing field for all parties involved?

I have no hidden agenda. I am merely trying to promote some good discussion into (in my opinion) the single most important and fun aspect of NC - op fighting.

I would also like to ask - is there the ability within the game mechanics to only cast your group shields on a player IN YOUR TEAM. This would potentially alleviate the one negative side effect of group buffing - ie buffing your opponent. This would also probably make PVE much easier as you wouldnt buff the mobs youre fighting either. I am not sure if shields actually do anything to monsters any more however. Historically they did but that may have been disabled in todays game.

Nanites:
Weirdly enough, using nanite antibuff tool drains PSI power, which makes no sense RP-wise.

I guess this is because the tool was designed as a replacement HAB for APUs (hence the req on the antibuff nanite tools) and as a attemp to limit it's use on classes like PEs and Spys. This is a weak design in my opinion.

To bring a coherent, easy to manage approach to nanites, all but the Heal and Repair nanites should be removed, and Heal and Repair nanites should BOTH be recyclable.


PPUs:
A lot of clans/fighting teams seem to carry an extra PPU around for PVP. That guy's job usually is the Antibuff and Rezzes. This leads to a lot of fights where looser`s side fighters are all down and then you have 2-3 PPUs running around, clipping, and trying to pull rezzes.

Now I dislike how strong a PPU is. Monks are described as the frail, post-troglodyte type of humans with extra-sensory powers. Hardly makes any sense that on one spectrum of the class you have the best damage soakers and on the opposite side you have what is (supposed to be) the best damage dealer (in terms of dam/min).

The PPU's self-buffs and heal are the problem in my opinion. They make a PPU tougher than a Tank. Way I see things, making the self-buff weaker than the foreign-buff is a viable option to acheive a better PVP balance.

This would make targeting the PPUs a viable option in PVP, and also make PVE harder which seems to be in-line with the current DEV team's vision.
No more 'PPUs up first', but rather 'Tanks up first' which is a lot more in line with what a Tank's description is.
Due to the CON amount, simply put, a Tank should be the class with the less damage intake when PPU buffed/healed.

P.S.
To all those saying PPUs are nerfed enough already, I will say that ANY class being able to simply stand still and outheal another class because of shields and heals should not exists, as this is very, very poor game mechanics for balanced PVP.
Imagine in BF if medics could outheal a engineer's small weapon well enough so the healed player could simply stand still, soak up the damage and keep doing whatever it is that it is doing.

Why not remove the monk class as a whole?

@William

No offense but the fact that you remember 1 clan that used the groupshields (while a gazillion others didn't) speaks for itself.Groupshields MAY be worth using IF the buffs would only apply to the runners in the Team of the PPU (like you suggested).

However,in this case i would suggest creating a rare variant of those modules and not "screwing" with the existing ones.
Would be a pleasure to check it out on TS-Opwars.

(another) reduction in the power of foreign cast shields PLUS more antibuff options in general would alter PPU gameplay and have way too much impact on PVP,maybe even to the point where no one could be arsed to play PPU.

I agree on the need of a non-ppu Antibuff solution but not on the "hey let's change something else while we're at it,too" since this climaxed in the current 2.2 "Balancing-Mess".
1 thing at a time ;)

Also back before te 2.2 mess, killing a HABd PPU was easy because of the freq on monk's spells. You could easily give him a good 2-300 damage before he could get S/D back up. Multiply by 2-3 APUs, and that meant inta death for that PPU.
Now with our shit freq (even on weapon classes) PPUs with skills and brains can manage 0 damage when HABd, even with multiple damage dealers.

I feel skilled PPUs are actually a lot tougher to kill nowadays.

I don't take offence. I know group shields are shit. Hence why I made the point of only seeing one clan use them effectively. I didn't want to suggest adding to a polluted rare pool however.

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Originally Posted by CMaster

The way to reduce the reliance on PPUs is to make them weaker, not stronger, but able to support more people. So you reduce the strength of foreign shields from the current 30% to say, 20%, but make shields last 10 minutes rather than 3 (and degrade slower too) Or make group buffs easier to use - whatever lets a single PPU support more people.

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I like this. A PPU would be awesome for a big team - he can shield lots of people at once, but the shielding isn't as effective as it is now, and, adding another PPU in wouldn't make much of a difference (aside from fast healing of individual targets), because everyone is already shielded. Makes sense to me.

On a side note can someone explain to a pvp-noob what "foreign shields" are?

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Originally Posted by Izeo

I like this. A PPU would be awesome for a big team - he can shield lots of people at once, but the shielding isn't as effective as it is now, and, adding another PPU in wouldn't make much of a difference (aside from fast healing of individual targets), because everyone is already shielded. Makes sense to me.

On a side note can someone explain to a pvp-noob what "foreign shields" are?

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When you cast a shield, it can be either a "self shield" - so applied to yourself and of almost unlimited effectiveness. Or it can be cast on somebody else - a "foreign shield". These are currently capped at a maximum resistance of 30% (I think they take a modifier anyway, so that even without this cap, they're a lot less than 80% - or so that say a PE deflectoring a friend will get a lot less than 14%. Would have to check on that last one.

Basically, it's a way of letting PPUs be invincible, without letting them do the same to others.

Earlier in 2.2, foreign shields capped at 25%, which I felt was a better point.

PPUs shouldn't be near invincible. They should rely on Tanks to soak up PVE damage for them, and on their own skills to dodge/avoid getting PVP gank.

Self and foreign buff should exactly the same, and that same should be foreign-like strenght.

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Originally Posted by Kame

PPUs shouldn't be near invincible. They should rely on Tanks to soak up PVE damage for them, and on their own skills to dodge/avoid getting PVP gank.

Self and foreign buff should exactly the same, and that same should be foreign-like strenght.

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I agree with you up to that last point. If you make foreign buff and self-buff the same you might as well delete the ppu. He has to have something in defence to give up ALL forms of attack.

Yeah Self and foreign cast being the same is a horrible idea IMO.

A PPU who dies just as easy as an APU.. Doubt that it would be much fun to die within the first 10 secs of every fight.. And it would make combat rezzes completely impossible aswell.

I love some of the intelligent reasoning in here from some of you but keep this in mind. When u nerf the ppu down so he takes more damage and dies easier lots of people gonna stop playing them because they have the most to lose in terms of valuable items.


Some of your ideas in this thread and the reasoning behind it is to me too much based around one assumption. ie people bringing more ppus not less etc. At the end of the day this game is a numbers game. you can balance so much pound for pound but when, during an op fight, if one clan get the numerical advantage, it will. Some of these counter arguements are based on too many assumptions such as that EVERY SINGLE RUNNER has a capped ppu at his disposal and will bring it when in reality thats not so often the case.

wake up and smell the coffee before you smack down ideas or say no that clearly wont work. This is a very careful process to balance up the class/classes and i dont think that the ppu personally is that bad in terms of how easy to kill him it is.

final thought on this all which seems to have escaped a lot of people. you talk about the volume of antibuffs being brought to a fight if used by another class. and that it will automatically propogate more ppus being brought. Assuming both teams have an infinite number that could happen.

But think about it in real terms. not bullshitland terms. If everyones antibuffing who the hell is damaging the player whos getting antibuffed. think about the fact that not every person or clan has a million alts ready to go.

Theres far too much theoretical shit in this thread saying this or that or the other to counter these arguements and some of the changes are pretty fuckin ludicrous.

Heres a thought. Give the pe a decent usable antibuff. Oh hang on. due to class mechanics his psi caps at 35. so how do u scale that to allow use of an antibuff. We then go back the issue of the monks only being able to use it. It has to sit with the apu/ppu. no choice there it would seem if you are to apply special requirements on psi to it.

So. Outside the box. We need some kind of antishield tool. Not based on psi reqs. Open to all to use potentially. Maybe even make it require TC as all 3 "Other" classes can get tc quite easy. Another option would be to make a melee weapon like the electro shocker do it. Thunderbolt. 0 Damage but eats shields etc.

At least this is putting forth ideas. I still highly doubt monkocron makes a return given the state of the apu but hey some of you can see the future so you already know whats coming.


For the record my money's on someone posting "bring back shit buffing" as the next dumb shit statement posted in this thread.

Is there an issue with nerfing shields overall so that it may not be worth it to have to worry about who can antibuff who?

Yes izeo. Doing that hurts the ppu the most and he will be carrying double ar least the amount of rares you're carrying so it makes his game even harder.