Printable View
Hello,
I would like to hear your feedback related to WoC (-Items).
Make it "cosmetics" only:
Example: Instead of a complete new weapon you would get a copy of the Devils Grace sword, just with another color (legacy style), maybe another name etc.
Or you want that relevant for PvP/E?
Let me hear your ideas :)
No, no changes.
WoC is an essential endgame content.
You should never strip content.
What you should've done months ago is adjust XP gain according to the lost damage with the AE nerf...
Don't create problems where none are.
It's not all about changes, it's about future items, too.
What about WOC relevant Items for Droner ?
I don't think Xanthos meant replacing the DG, or changing an existing weapon, but when introducing new WoC items.
It's difficult with a small team to create new weapon models and their associated animations.
However, a new item can easily be made with a recolour of an existing asset.
Another idea is creating 'legacy' versions of the existing weapons, but using the old models. So you might have a Pain Easer, but WoC 1 and with the NC1 look.
Do you want WoC to be purely cosmetic (but function exactly like existing content) or provide different (but hopefully balanced) choices?
And yes, I'm back ;).
What Bragi said - thanks :)
And welcome back! :)
Please make PE WoC take the same length of time to get as the other classes. I'm begging you. Please! PLEASE!!
[Edited]
You contradict yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bragi
No WoC mechanic needs as little of a change as Drugs did when you messed with them.
Please don't hurt the game any further by implementing changes nobody requested.
If you want to do some meaningful balance work:
- Armor Body Zone merging
- Remove Coma Values from all Gear
I've given you site long lists of possible additional implants.
Adjust XP gains and leave WoC alone. Never touch a working system.
Fix the core issues we have with balance (low tier apu module damage for example to fix hybridocron).
Don't.
Touch.
Anything.
That is working fine.
Just don't do it. You will mess it up like you've done so many times before.
[Edited]
[Edited]
WoC is working and balanced don't touch it.
Epic missions are imbalanced. Do something there instead.
So yes WoC should be relevant for PvP / PvE as it currently is.
All you need to do is adjust XP gains and fix the damn PE WoC already.
I would actually prefer that WoC items are NOT cosmetic only. It takes effort to get WoC. (As Jack points out, perhaps too much effort for a PE dex WoC 1) Dont make WoC the 'only good' end game PvE / PvP item, but make it unique at the same time so that there is a reason beyond cosmetics for using the item. In fact, make WoC 2 and 3 items that are not cosmetic only too. Just dont make them twice as good as the next best non-WoC item. But a small bonus? Why not? Could even be a bonus outside of the common realm... such as all the stats plus some extra resist, runspeed, transport... etc Just my two cents and thanks for asking us!
PE WoC does take the same amount of time to get as other classes. It just feels longer because you've capped out earlier than all the other classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake6k
It's still 260 Million for WoC 1, 410 Million of WoC 2, etc.
I agree here. I like that WoC gives us something to strive for.Quote:
Originally Posted by greensoldier
In all honesty, with all the extra stuff hitting the PTS and about to be released, I'd say I think we are good on WoC weapons for the moment.
Having said that, are there any WoC drones? That could be something to explore.
Also, there are some weapons that I thought were really neat (like the Rocket Pistol) that were nerfed into being completely obsolete. It'd be nice to see some of those weapons buffed back up. Also the WoC Pistols seem to desperately need some attention, so I think refining those existing weapons (plus all the new stuff you're working on) will be a top priority first before adding even more WoC content should be looked at.
I think that the 'unique' vs 'better' thing is being affected by some overlap.
Let's say there's a gap in a given weapon TL range. We can add a WoC weapon within that gap that is balanced accordingly; this doesn't make this weapon 'better' (so long as the implant options associated with it aren't any better than with any other choice), but adds variety. Those without WoC then don't feel the need to reach it to compete.
On the other hand, if you have (for example) a WoC implant that's identical to the DIP, but has a +10 (or whatever value) bonus to something, even if it's 'incidental' (such as VHC, HCK, etc.) then this is still 'better', and you end up shifting the line ever upwards.
We have to draw the line at overall performance at some point.
We could of course have a 'soft' line.
Though horribly confusing to many players, the previous implant rework aimed to make the difference between Tier 3 implants and the Rares and MC5s much less (very similar to what I just mentioned and greensoldier's suggestions). The MC5s were intended as the end-game items, but use of the the lower tiers for more casual and/or less hard-core players would be less detrimental.
But at the end of the day, the MC5s were always the end-game items.
The question that needs to be addressed is: Where is our chosen end-game performance line?
Is it MC5s? In which case WoC is about prestige and non-essential options; Or is it WoC, which while possibly marginal in it's benefits, is still the standard for end-game.
Woc doesnt take the same amount of time on a PE as the other classes, this is so false its not even funny.
Woc should be cosmetic only. It absolutely killed this game when it was introduced and anyone who remembers that time and still bothers to post here should absolutely remember it.
Does it have a place in the game? yes absolutely, as lore/storyline/something to work towards if you want to as a nice addition over and above the XP cap.
Should it be a part of the game fundamentals... no most definitely not. NC1 was so much better than NC2 because you had pvp viability from about level 45 onwards. Sure we didnt know what we were doing with stuff back then but the community was alive because people formed relationships (be they love or hate) with one another and fought and died together plenty. Pvp was much more accessible and a whole lot more fun until you added MC5 chips and Woc as "gated" content and it led to huge changes in MC5 to allow a more level playing field (good changes) and also it led to the addition of WOC (bad changes).
TLDR
Cosmetic - yes. Everything else - no.
Just no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bragi
Don't touch the WoC mechanic.
Nothing broken or unbalanced there.
Move along.
No MC5 is not the only endgame.
No nobody requested WoC Implants.
No nobody requested WoC change except for XP fix and PE WoC fix.
Thanks for doing what the community requests.
It's a ridicilous notion that endgame has to be either MC5 or WoC. Where does this even come from?
No it should not be cosmetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
NC is a grinder. So WoC = Content.
Never remove content.
Fix XP gains and PE WoC and everything is fine.
I think to make it fair create WoC Weapons/Items that matter for every class thats being left out till now...
Droner , Apu , PPU , Melee Tank , HC Tank , etc.
Maybe add some Cosmetic Items with different Colors later , or like the new WoC Melee let the Color be choosen when you make the Quest so it gives another purpose to repeat the Quests
Only Cosmetics won´t be a reason for someone to go WoC 5 or anything like it
This truly confuses me when you guys say stuff like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
Am I missing something? Is 260 Million Xp =/= 260 Million Xp, regardless of which archetype you pick?
I'm not trying to flame here. I'm genuinely confused by this.
Please enlighten me.
I think, WoC Items should be better than normal Rares.
Endgame start with the Rare Weapons, you can hunt every Mob or fight in OP Fights with Rares.
The End of the Endgame should be WoC with a small benefit ... just 5% better than the Rare Opposite.
So its always the target to hit WoC but u dont need it to do everything in the Game.
I also like the idea of Legacy Items, to bring back old models ... but u could also use them for "new" weapons that are a bit different :)
AgreedQuote:
Originally Posted by Skansy
Bmurph101, with the greatest of respect please dont post stuff as a certainty and then retract it when someone calls you on it. If you dont understand the mechanic then by all means ask but your first post made it look like you knew what you were saying.
Due to the xp gain on a PE being vastly different on a PE (it is distributed evenly across his skills) vs a spy (he gets a huge proportion into his "primary" skills) it takes far longer to get the PE to woc as you are effectively wasting a vast portion of the xp as it goes into strength or some other area. You get nothing back for that investment. This negative is felt two-fold. Firstly it is in that the PE cannot reach woc items as they currently stand in any other useful discipline other than DEX (even if they added new ones the way the pe is set up does not favour the "woc" end game).
On top of that you then have the additional issues of Woc being a requirement to even attempt to pvp which also puts people off.
To all of the people saying that Woc = content.... no. Sorry but just no. Making sweeping generalisations and spouting off illinformed drivel like you know what you are talking about without looking at the core mechanics and the deeper history is just terribly bad for the community.
Woc as a requirement for anything in terms of fun is what drove the vast majority away from this game. You guys saying that this is a good thing should really take a good long look at the game and the community and maybe do a few searches down the years about this very subject.
Making Woc a requirement to pvp effectively killed off the game because you are placing the largest part of the content (pvp) behind a grind-wall to remain playable. Giving a % damage boost to those who grind over those who doesnt also did monumental damage to the viability of the casual player.
Nobody wants to grind for years. That sort of thing was destined for a wow-clone with 20 man raids and good AI and a solid PVE experience because in games like that you had the systems in place to build and sustain a good quality pve experience right through to cap and beyond.
NC does not and never has had that solid pve experience. NC has op fights. PVP is the ultimate draw for the largest part of the player base, OWPVP at that. The thrill of looking over your shoulder when you step out of a safe zone.
People like Torg will come in here and say different and I will concur, there are always exceptions which prove the rule. There are players like Riddle and Torg and others of note who love the immersion of NC but they are vastly few and far between. This game is competing in an MMO-FPS space and the F2P space. It needs player driven content to survive. Player driven means pvp primarily.
A dwindling player base does not equate to good pvp. You have all complained about the lack of fights and now you are saying you want WOC to be a reward for grinding but the vast majority of your predecessors hated it and quit. You have to look at the strengths of this game in the current day and age of gaming.
Zoltan already said he doesnt want it to turn into counterstrike, which is fine but also you need to have supporting infrastructure which supports good quality pvp.
The beauty of NC1 (for those who didnt get to experience it) was the player made content, the fights, the shit talk, the fact you could cap your char in a short time and be pvp ready inside a month or so. There was no endless grind and no levelling treadmill to stay relevant. It had bugs, yes. It had fatal errors and synch bugs and hackers and all sorts of stuff but the majority of the content was clan wars (unofficial but thats another thing) and shit talk and the zerg. We had player run events, we had communities springing up everywhere. Revenge was a currency many people traded in.
Most of all we had the accessibility and the urge to take out our LEs and join in the fights. The more barriers you put in the way to getting into a viable condition to fight other players the more you put off the community from wanting to come back and fight.
Ask yourselves one question.... nothing about feeling lucky, why are you here? Why do you still play this game? Is it for the people or for the content? the pve experience or the op fights?
If its for the latter, which i suspect it is then why do you want to prevent others from being able to fight you until long after their patience has run out and they have gone on to a more modern game where they can easily pick up a gun and fight soon after stepping into the game.
The closest I have got to replicating NC recently is the division, in terms of having areas to level up whilst enjoying safety and areas to go where i know i can potentially get ganked. The levelling system and gearing system in that game mirrors this one but I can be pvp ready and able to fight players of a similar ability/gear range to me in under an hour of playing the game. I can find players of my level (level range) at most times of the day after having played the game for maybe 10 hours total. I have a good grasp of the game and can enjoy pvp and pve whenever i choose.
Making people with limited free time grind endlessly on poor PVE mechanics with a terrible XP system just so that they can then try to find a community of less than 100 players to possibly have a fight with is not my idea of fun. When that fight invariably ends with one person running to a safezone do you honestly still wonder why the community is so small?
Im trying not to flame these ridiculous decisions but I have to say Odi, with the greatest of respect you are doing more damage to a dwindling community than I have seen most people do in years. You just dont get it and I wish you would put a bit more thought in to your posts. This is not a flame but it is an attempt to stop you posting this crap because you are in danger of being taken seriously and that would be detrimental to NC in the long run.
@Will, thanks for replying man. I'm glad to see your response!
I'll start with the back portion of your post, as I'm certain you won't agree with what I have to say in regards to your first part which was regarding PEs and WoC.
I came to NC from Darkfall. In early Darkfall, it was as you say, stuck behind a grind wall. The game was essentially unplayable unless you macro'd afk for 8-10 hours per day, and played mega try hard just as many hours afterwards. The later portion of Darkfall effectively removed this issue, and it was fantastic. PvP was everywhere, and your heart was constantly pounding (Darkfall is full loot, zero safe zones).
The issue is this only lasted a while. Like it or not, PvP focused MMORPGS, inevitably eat themselves. The wolves will always feast on the sheep until there are no sheep left, and then the wolves cannabilize themselves. Those same people who quit due toWoC undoubtedly would have quit for other reasons, one of which would have inevitably been them getting killed over and over.
WoC giving items that are "better" than rates is not a bad thing, provided the items are only marginally better. As someone pointed out, we're talking around 5% better. This gives players who want the option to take a break from PvP, yet still feel like their time in NC is not "wasted" something to work towards. It'll give them a slight edge over someone who doesn't, but no one is advocating for a WoC weapon that makes every other gun obsolete. In fact, most Rares are more effective than WoCs nowadays. Have you seen the HVAP pistol? Or the DoY one (SWAT I think?)?
Tldr; WoC giving items that are marginally better is not game breaking at this stage. Maybe back in the day they were glaringly better, but nowadays that isn't the case.
In response to the PE leveling, and I'm not trying to be an ass here, it's evidently exactly as I pointed out. You feel it more on the grind because you stop getting skill points at an earlier stage than the other classes. You're essentially arguing that it's unfair that someone can run a mile faster than you. Sorry, but just as running at a different rate gives you an advantage, so does playing something other than a PE. As it stands, I don't think a PE (who is SUPPOSED to have the most balanced stat pool in the game) should be able to push one stat to the max as quickly as other classes. You chose to play PE on the premise of "I won't be the best at one thing, but I'll be good at everything". If you want to suggest a flat xp boost in general, I can get on board with that. But honestly the grind in NC isn't bad at all
And if we are being completely, 100% honest, the reason the population is so low is because there are no new people really playing this game. Think, outside of myself, who has found NC in the past three years and still plays? I honestly think I may be the only one. What does that imply? That there is something horrifically wrong with the new player experience.
Why am I still here then? Because, as you yourself pointed out: Neocron gets the end game right. No need to drastically fix what isn't broken. But hey, you're entitled to disagree. I'm just giving you my perception and experience as one of the very few BRAND NEW people to NC in the past few years who is still here.
Posted from my phone. Offline until next week ����
Im not disagreeing with anything you say about Darkfall. I know of the game, i dont play it but i have played similar games.
Woc (last time I played) was meant to be as you guys said - slightly above the average gun. The problem is, by making 1 gun slightly superior you limit the playing field to using that one gun. Nobody will use anything different. Then the game becomes cookie cutter. This is how is has been since 2005 (the release of DOY and the introduction of "best in class" weapons).
The beauty of the older version of NC was the variety. So many people I know had their hopes pinned on the balancing patch bringing back that variety to the masses. People would love to see a Judge PE fight with a ROLH spy again because it made the aesthetics of the combat so much nicer.
Woc weapons have no flashy effects. It is all damage. We used to love watching burning plasma get flung about while we spectated a fight settled because 2 epeens got enlarged.
As for the PE issue. All I can say is please go and try to woc a pe and then please go and woc a tank or a spy right afterwards. Not one youve done in the past, or one you have now but compare the two when you have walked a mile in that man's shoes. I have 2 pe's, one is wocced, one I gave up on. I have several spies and tanks and a whole bunch of other stuff. I am waiting for this game to undergo the revival I think many of us are waiting for. I am still holding out hope and blind optimism but the glacial speed of development and the lack of activity stops me from stopping by more than once in a blue moon.
However when people ask for feedback from the community I feel a certain duty to stop the mistakes repeated in the past. Some people cannot see further than end of their own nose when it comes to these things. I get the impression from your post that you are in danger of falling into that trap due to lack of experience with the class.
I see the bigger picture i think. I have been here so long I have played all of the classes and more importantly seen the big issues that drove away the populace. The game needs to be more accessible to the casual player if it is to survive for the long term and in time even flourish.
Putting things behind a grind-wall and limiting the rewards for said grind just stops people from wanting to play.
If I come in today on day 1 and you tell me I need woc for 5% better damage on my gun I will automatically think I need woc to compete. I dont want to give up that 5% damage buff by using anything else. You are streamlining me due to my lack of knowledge on the subject.
After I have spent several months grinding I then find that there isnt much to do beside that due to low population and lack of community and a whole bunch of other issues - which I have seen while I grind - and I think there is literally no point to grinding. You arent offering me anything at cap. I need to see the passion and the fire, I need to be romanticised by the game. I am its newest customer. It needs to draw me in and you as the community have a vested interest in making that happen.
This mechanic alienates me from that.
For those that clearly dont understand the difference between woc and non woc - the woc weapons were supposed to be a slight advantage over regular guns. It never worked out properly.
The balancing patch is going to remedy that when it is finished. Things will be better for everyone because you will be balanced by the numbers and you will be able to choose lower damage and higher resists. You will have the freedom of choice and the variety to run a terminator build with a damage boost and wreck faces like I used to with a low tech pe. You will see all the classes back to how they should be.
Woc is bullshit. It is there as a reward for people who like to do PVE and want some new cosmetics. The players who like to fight should be out fighting each other. Thats what nc is for.
If you want more people online fix balance and XP gains.
NC is a grinder so the content is grindy. NC is an oldschool mmo and oldschool mmo's are time consuming.
Nothing wrong with the game.
If you want easymode and linear questing experience you can go and play every other MMO on the market.
But NC shouldn't change just because you don't understand that this game is from a different (and better) MMO era.
If you don't have the time to put into the game, I suggest you play something else.
Oldschool MMO's have always been timesinks. This more about what you'd find convinient than what the game is.
It's this kind of entitelment that fucked the MMO franchise.
Cutting any content at this point would be beyond stupid for the game.
Also to the balancing patch:
You do realize that the current damage curve, weapondesign and resistfactors are majorly fucked and actually moved us even further away from that target? I don't see lib PE's anywhere until a whole lot of fixing is done. (Damage Curve from low to high TL should be exponential not linear up to TL80 -> would fix hybrids, resist needs pre- patch effectiveness, weapons need to benefit properly from build quality again).
Edit: I agree that PE WoC needs to be fixed though. Funny enough the only class which absolutely needs WoC for competitive builds has the hardest time reaching it. That is indeed bad design.
I started playing this game in nc1 pal. I dont need a history lesson. I have 3 accounts with chars I can pick up and play and pvp at any time. I choose not to because in its current state it isnt fun. How is "fixing xp gain" going to help when you say "its ok the game is a grinder". Do you see the contradiction here? Its almost like you blurt out a word salad, press enter and hope to god someone can interpret meaning. If you cant understand this is not about me its about the game and what is best, then you unfortunately are "beyond stupid" to quote you.
NC is not a grinder. You are literally so wrong here its not true. Everything in your post is "you, you you" which means you dont have the experience to discuss or critically evaluate the games flaws and cannot see past the end of your nose. If you have to resort to the lowest common denominator for a reply then you are sadly lacking in the discussion department. There is literally only one good thing to come out of your post. It just means I dont have to take anything else you say seriously ever again.
Getting rid of the grind is not removing content, it is creating it. It creates, capped players, which in turn creates population, which creates pvp which in turn creates op fights, clan wars, smack talk. The life blood of nc.
As i said before this game is never going to win any awards for its pve content, it is an enabler to pvp.
As for balancing, its not balanced. I dont need to log into the game to see that its still a work in progress.
Everything in my post makes sense to attract a new client base. It is about what the community expects in the modern era and the way to attract new custom. Nobody buys a 100yr old car and says hey I want to drive how people used to. Not in the mainstream anyway. This game needs to appeal to the f2p market because thats what it is now.
Zoltan said a while back (do a search if you wish) that their (NST) aim is to keep NC running as long as possible. To do that it needs to appeal to new players. New players will see this and be put off. They want a different flavour of gaming now and some will be attracted to the niche that is NC but others will need to see at least some of the things they have come to see as the norm in the current market.
I'm sorry to say BUT i absolutely think that Hybrid's should not get a WoC Glove, that is ridiculous and SHOULD NOT happen. Hybrids already have access to the Gaya Glove, Hybrids shouldn't have PA and they shouldn't access to WoC content, there has to be some compromise players making Hybrids have to make. WIth the Gaya Glove, DS, CCC, and CSC, Hybrids are insane. If you go through the trouble of doing PA Swapping you can use EVERY RARE as a Hybrid. A Hybrid glove is already in the game it's the Crahn Epic glove.
If you add a WoC Hybrid glvoe it's going to once again invalidate the Crahn Epic for anyone but PE's.
Just add more bling. Yes, Neocron asks for more content, but not just for the late endgame. So WOC-Bling should do. More shiny PA's and stuff.