Op Gr Changes (yes this again)

Logged on for a game today. Population at its lowest point (2-3%) and i was watching a conversation on help channel about the gr rules and how clans can lock people out.

First off im gonna go on record and say to all the people who dismissed this thread out of hand last time i raised the idea of reverting the rules to stop clans locking grs to please either contribute in a more discursive way or dont bother posting. (ie fuck off)

I have always been of the thought that these rules imo killed the game in a lot of ways by allowing too much control to the players. Im not gonna go in to a huge argument about how and why but the rules were better when you couldnt lock the gen reps. I dont care who argues differently as this is my opinion and i really am not here to debate this topic with you all.


Now the suggestion. It occurred to me that ops ought to be worth fighting over allegedly. I disagree on this point as in my eyes the reason people op fight is because its fun and there isnt much thats gonna change that. It is the most fun you can have with neocron and if people were really honest with themselves most i think would agree it is more about having the fight than winning. Its only certain members of certain clans who are short sighted enough to say only *insert nationality* are allowed to own ops ^^.

The idea is that the op should cost money to keep not generate money. Take the money off the clans not give it to them. It will be a gigantic money sink with the op eating up cash from the clans bank. This forces them to pay for the op to be kept. It eliminates greed from wanting to own all the ops. It will also encourage clans to open up the gen reps and let the ten people who play at night (US/AEST) actually be able to get around and do stuff.

By opening the grs to all the money paid from the person using the Gen rep can make a direct deposit of cash in to the clans bank account. Obviously this could be scaled to fit different fees and potentially the more lucrative and high traffic grs would be taking a bigger cut of the gr fee out of it before the deposit (say it goes to next or whoever).


I apologise for a long post on the subject but given the recent lack of activity on these forums and in the game in regards development i didnt want this post to get ignored or tossed by the wayside when its something that i have always felt very strongly about and would like to see changed in some way. FUN > Everything else and i don't foresee this as being a massive change to be implemented really nor do i see that its gonna do any harm to the current op scene etc.

My friends and clan mates in the game have been trying to drag me back in to play but with the state of things currently im happy to sit on the fence and observe but i do hope that there is still development taking place and the game will start to pick up again in the future. I also hope that this idea and many others will one day be implemented in the game but having played for less than an hour tonight and again seeing people discussing the same old tired issues of ops being locked it just makes me think well fuck neocron then i can play something else thats a lot more fun.

However what i would like to see is a game that draws people back in because its easy to pick up and play and get back in to, to encourage people to come and play in times like now (7pm AEDT = 8am in the UK) when pops are at the lowest and i too will want to come back and play it.

Something to consider anyway.

Agreed. Old op system and its "ninja" hacking was better than the current one. Encourage small clans to take ops and hold them for a few hours while they conduct their business (research construction etc).

I believe that OP Security should refer to the UG still and give the clan access to the UG gr and allow all of the bonuses they get currently (reduced GR fees and NO SI both ways might be good?) This would make the UG secure for tradeskilling with minor risk going to the gogu, it would not change the dynamic of op fighting too much and keep the strategic element of barrelling the UG in play because I know everyone loves that. It would also give the randoms/unclanned/le'd people a chance to explore more of the world on a whim.

However the external GR - should be set to public all the time.

Agreed.
Like the idea that it costs a clan to own/maintain an outpost, but the clan does get a cut from the fees people pay when going through the GR.
Also that the owning clan can can go to and from the under ground GR for free with no SI.

In nc1 the orginal rules promoted fights as people could GR to any neighbouring OP to launch their attack or just GR straight there and risk being attacked with SI.

So I reiterate Williams point:

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external GR - should be set to public all the time.

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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

Logged on for a game today. Population at its lowest point (2-3%) and i was watching a conversation on help channel about the gr rules and how clans can lock people out.
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It will also encourage clans to open up the gen reps and let the ten people who play at night (US/AEST) actually be able to get around and do stuff.
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FUN > Everything else and i don't foresee this as being a massive change to be implemented really nor do i see that its gonna do any harm to the current op scene etc.

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So much win in your post. While I don't know if I readily agree with the pay-to-own mechanism, I whole-heartedly agree with the idea that GR's should be open. Always.

Fun is the reason we play this game, fun is something that is delivered in a number of different ways-- fights, building yourself a nice 5 slotter, crazy PVE excursions, you name it. One thing that is most definitely NOT fun is running half-way across the map to a zone you have 3 GR's adjacent to, simply because of GR locks. Fun is NOT clicking through the citycom and changing security settings. There is no NO FUN in this mechanism, either from the GR owner, or user's perspective.

Also, to crack down (possibly) on hogging, it may be useful to change the bonuses for uplinks (and probably mines and fortresses) to just be res or cst buffs. The only truly compelling reason to own an op vs just fight for it are those two buffs.

Fun /could/ be allowing hackers to unlock said GR's through any CityCom.

uhm. sorry. whats the problem with hitting your "keep-running"-hotkey (i usually bind it to "Q") or using a vehicle for a minute or two? and yes, controlling the GR settings is one of the benefits of owning an OP. doc, i disagree.

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Originally Posted by Torg

uhm. sorry. whats the problem with hitting your "keep-running"-hotkey (i usually bind it to "Q") or using a vehicle for a minute or two? and yes, controlling the GR settings is one of the benefits of owning an OP. doc, i disagree.

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Your entitled to. But what happens when the game does something daft and you lose your vehicle somewhere. What happens when the economy gets fubared because clan X has so much cash in the bank it becomes worthless.

What happens when a clan decides they want to take an op and they "ninja" it to open it up for other people to use and because they "ninja" it according to the previous clan that owned it that clan comes back and ninjas it and then locks it to spite everyone (happened to me. this is personal experience)

Is there not enough benefit in owning the op simply so you know you will get a fight. Does unlocking the grs actually make the game more accessible to the community (especially what little community there is out of the peak times which im fairly certain you play on torg) as a whole. Yes it does. Fighters will get their fights. Explorers and levellers get to go levelling without having to run/drive half way across a zone.

It might just encourage people to log on more when they realise the world is that bit more accessible and they can get around and do their thing regardless of the latest op war clan that day.

Torg i appreciate a good discussion as much as the next man but please, your reply is very short and doesn't really make any counter points to the arguments proposed in the original post. It says disagree but not the why other than the one line about owning ops should allow you to control the gr. I want a good reason WHY this should be the case in the face of what I have suggested and that goes for anyone else who wants to argue the case. Show me a good solid reason why this should stay as it is when faced with the arguments I have raised.

Dont want to toot the horn on the nc1 bandwagon but Op fighting was so much fun back then compared to now. Everyone from that time has stories they recall fondly such as the 10 hour soliko fight (everyone has had one of those im sure :)). I remember running out to Tesla gr one night having left the op because we ran out of targets to kill. We butchered 3 guys waiting off their SI having just gr'ed in to reinforce. One even had the chance to pull a speedgat (back when it was worth using and could be drawn coming out of a gr with SI. the good times) but he still died.

We then sent scouts off to the closest grs to find out where the next attack would come from because we knew it would come. in the end we found it at cycrow and the fight erupted there again. It even drew more people in as friends of the clans involved on both sides waded in. we didnt even need to hack a layer. It was such a great fight and this is the type of thing that i think nc misses.

OP GR locking is a barrier to pvp. Nothing more.

As for autorun i left it as default key. I tend to use q for quickslot 2 for staminas so i can fight better.


Divide that is an awesome idea. Send a hacker in to hacknet to go and open the gr to let people go through. Probably warrants a seperate thread.

doc, i think this is a matter of how youre looking at NC. if PvP is the single most important part of the game, everything could be tailored to give access to PvP. if its not, but just one of the many things you can do in this world, possessing an OP has many different benefits, too.

back in the golden days of NC1 (that never were, its just in our memories), attackers usually gathered at a GR in the vicinity, or even one or two zones away, and never at the GR they wanted to attack. for obvious reasons. yes, i also remember those fights being more entertaining than today, but i rather blame changes in weapon balance than OP control rules.

speaking of which, would you welcome the removal of the safeslot, NC1-style, even in OP-zones, so you could lose your most valued weapon in a fight? i bet you wouldnt.

seriously, if you want to make PvP more accessible, strenghten the role of the fighting chars, i.e. make armor more, and shields less effective.

We have had safe slots in our belts since March 2003. Attackers never gathered at the GR in the zone. They were almost always one zone away. Sometimes more.

There are no benefits to owning an op unless you want a tradeskill buff (not hugely a big draw but useful to the noobs more than capped chars).

It is pointless making your changes to the pvp Torg if people cant actually get to where the fight is without a load of travelling. Nobody in the right mind wants to walk 3 zones to find the fight already happened before they got there.

The average 1v1 lasts less than 1 minute - less than 30 seconds if the player is good enough. The average op fight can last as little as a few minutes to as long as a few hours.

It will last a few hours if more fighters can get there and fight. This is infinitely more fun than exploring Chaos caves I can tell you.

This whole game should be geared towards the end game of pvp which is its biggest draw. The people who want to explore, collect rares and make guns and all of the other stuff CAN do it ALL THE WAY THROUGH the levelling process. This game is geared up to the eyeballs for them to do that. I love making a new player and finding out what level I can solo a warbot (one of the milestones of levelling) but when I get to cap I find this no longer interests me. I farm my rares to get the best guns. I have the best guns now. All the guns I ever want. I have done all of that, I did it in a year the first time around and even less this time around.

The reason this game has longevity is because you can go caving till your eyes bleed and see the same thing over and over.

No two op fights are ever the same.

Thats why we come back and play more.

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Originally Posted by Torg

doc, i think this is a matter of how youre looking at NC. if PvP is the single most important part of the game, everything could be tailored to give access to PvP.

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It is, the whole game is desgined around pvp. The whole lore of the game also shows you it is all based around the struggles and fighting between the factions. Why else do you think there are faction relationships in the game?

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Originally Posted by Torg

if its not, but just one of the many things you can do in this world, possessing an OP has many different benefits, too.

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Possessing an OP is a show of power, and grants the owners and others in their faction a boost to skills for owning that OP for their faction.

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Originally Posted by Torg

back in the golden days of NC1 (that never were, its just in our memories),

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This is false, while certain aspects of the game were unbalanced (such as hybrids) the game did infact have much more viable balance back then than it did after 2.2.

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Originally Posted by Torg

attackers usually gathered at a GR in the vicinity, or even one or two zones away, and never at the GR they wanted to attack. for obvious reasons. yes, i also remember those fights being more entertaining than today, but i rather blame changes in weapon balance than OP control rules.

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Yes, attackers would go to a GR nearby. However now with GR rules, you usually can't do that. Where is the fun is traveling across 6 or more zones just to get to a fight, or get back into a fight when it will probably be over by that point.
Also due to GR rules if you are defending an OP, you no longer have to worry about which direction they will be coming from because if they can't GR to any neighbouring GR's you can work out where they can GR too and focus your force in that direction or go to that GR.

I do agree that weapon balance has made fighting less entertaining than it used to be. (don't think you'll find anyone who doesn't think that)

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Originally Posted by Torg

speaking of which, would you welcome the removal of the safeslot, NC1-style, even in OP-zones, so you could lose your most valued weapon in a fight? i bet you wouldnt.

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Irrelevent point about something that was changed not that long after release.

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Originally Posted by Torg

seriously, if you want to make PvP more accessible, strenghten the role of the fighting chars, i.e. make armor more, and shields less effective.

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You mean make resists are mean something again? I agree and this is something the devs are working on.

The following only represents my opinion not necessarily the opinion of the team as a whole:
Just throwing in some quick thoughts:

• In case one would go for the option of GRs being accessible all the time: GRs become closed once the first layer is down
• In case of upkeep without GRs being accessible all the time: owning clan gets money from people gring there plus taxes from people shopping there

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Originally Posted by Alduin

The following only represents my opinion not necessarily the opinion of the team as a whole:
Just throwing in some quick thoughts:

• In case one would go for the option of GRs being accessible all the time: GRs become closed once the first layer is down
• In case of upkeep without GRs being accessible all the time: owning clan gets money from people gring there plus taxes from people shopping there

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If point A was possible then absolutely YES. that would make a great deal of sense. the Attacking force can close the gr for any incoming fighters but this would still leave the issue of the underground GR. However this would be better than nothing as it prevents any extra fighters coming in from behind so to speak.

point B i would absolutely agree with. even if it was a 40-50% tax on items bought. This links in with other systems that make outpost shopping worthwhile (maybe boost quality of guns at ops making them more lucrative)


As for the NC1 slots being unsafe Torg yes i would love to see that return but given the state of play with the populations i think thats unviable. Im trying to empathise here with everyone and this is why i brought this arguement to the table. Trust me when i say i didnt raise this thread for the sake of a couple more posts. I thought it might actually have a chance to make some serious changes to the game.

The following only represents my opinion not necessarily the opinion of the team as a whole:

My thoughts on this:

Yes, outposts should have an upkeep cost out of the Clan Bank. I'm always up for money sinks.

Money Settings

• If the clan runs out of money the op returns to neutral status. GR unlocks to public.
  
  • You pay N credits per Outpost up to five Outposts (up to ~one of each type).
  • >5 Outposts (up to ~two of each type) costs N credits plus % per additional Outpost.
  • >10 Outposts (up to ~three of each type) costs N credits plus 2x% per additional Outpost.
  • Regardless of Total Outposts owning >3 of a single outpost type adds further (heavy) % increase.
  
  
• The owning Clan gets a % of all GR fees.
  
  • Locked to Red factions, Clan gets N credits minus %
  • Locked to Red/Yellow factions, Clan gets N credits minus 2x%

GR Settings

• GR security should depend on the number of held Outposts.
  
  • GRs of single outposts should allow lock downs against Red factions. Green/Yellow factions only.
    
    • Being isolated means much higher chance of very close open GR.
    
    
  • Owning 3 connected/local outposts should allows lock down against Yellow factions. Green factions only.
    
    • Very small bubble of limited access, potentially still surrounded by very close open GRs.
    
    
  • If Outpost 4 and 5 are local, can only be locked to Red factions, until Outpost 6 is captured. As above 4, 5, 6 must be local/connected.
    
    • Larger potential blackout zone of totally open GRs, fringe outposts still potentially have open GRs on up to 3 sides.
    
    
  • Not sure on this one: "Clan Stronghold" - If Outpost 4, 5 & 6 are also connected to 1, 2 & 3, one (and only one) Outpost can be locked to Clan Only if it is entirely surrounded by Clan OPs. This becomes the Stronghold.
    
    • This very specific rule set means it is very hard (and expensive) to reach this option.
    
    
  • Hacking an additional terminal in HackNet should set GR to Open-to-All for X time, regardless of previous state. Online clan members alerted and can be reset by Clan hacker in HackNet. After successful reset hack, GR lock down does not reoccur for ~10 minutes "while systems reset". Timer also prevents continuous on/off grief play.
    
    • If Stronghold rule introduced, it is not possible to use the above to open this Outpost's GR via HackNet.

Bonus Point!

• HackNet layer should only come online once 3 connected ops are owned.
  
  • Adds to the vulnerability of isolated Outposts. Also allows smaller clans to wage war easily over isolated/fringe Outposts.

These points would make it silly to take the entire map, remove the need to Ninja Outposts, reduce the appeal of hoarding particular bonus types, encourages Clans to open up GRs and addresses the original problem.

The above also has the potential to completely change the way bonuses work. This could add further strategy to the larger scale Outpost War game, while taking nothing away from how things work now.

I might have gotten carried away.

This is why threads like this are needed, and why it's great when the devs contribute their ideas into the mix.
I'm loving the ideas and the possible ways to add strategy to Outpost Fights.

I think the talk of paying to own an OP is unsettling, at least until a number is thrown around. There will be clan members who aren't going to want to pay to own an op, and I find it extremely hard to believe that certain ops would actually provide any income at all. Owning Syncon, for example, would likely be a waste.

This idea is attractive, no doubt, but having played other games with extensive timesinks and moneysinks (don't kid yourself, moneysink=timesink) I stand by the fact that it takes certain individuals to make this work. Not all clan members will contribute. In other situations, fine no biggie kick the person and get someone else who wants to pull their weight. With the pop as it is now, you have no choice - you need that person to opfight. So what do you do? Farm it yourself? Double time and moneysink for the individuals who DO pull their own weight? Fun, this is not.

If a direct tax can be taken from each clanned runner during time of occupation of an op without the need of physically depositing money in to the bank account (even a minor %) then there wouldnt be an issue of people paying or not paying. Thats a big IF but i assume its doable in a way similar to the LE tax. Maybe it could be controlled by a city com option to set a levy or it could just be a hard limit.

Because PvP'ers already make SO much money in NC....
I'm aware that SOME PvP'ers also enjoy trading, but that is FAR from all.

No, PvP'ers should NOT be fucked over like this IMO!
And what if you have several characters in one clan?

Besides, no clan would want any OP's besides Regants and Cycrow.. Would be pretty silly IMO..
I want to fight at MORE ops, not less (I fucking hate fighting at Cycrow!!).

If gr changes took place people could and would go to more places in the world.

If the op owning tax was something small then it would be a step in the right direction. Outposts are a business st the end of the day. Businesses cost money.


A fee like 1-5k or so per person per server reset or something along those lines. Similar to dailies in other games.

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Originally Posted by William Antrim

If gr changes took place people could and would go to more places in the world.

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Maybe for a week.. After that, people would stop using the useless OP's..

Businesses have to make money though. Or they die..
So again, the only OP's that would make sence to own is Regants and Cycrow.

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Originally Posted by Dropout

Maybe for a week.. After that, people would stop using the useless OP's..

Businesses have to make money though. Or they die..
So again, the only OP's that would make sence to own is Regants and Cycrow.

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They would be the most profitable ones yes as they are in the most used areas. However people will still want to take Outposts as they want their Bonuses (of course people only really want labs and factories).

Holding an Outpost should be something that requires effort to take and also maintain. If you want an OP you should also pay to maintain it. It stops clans taking over the entire map, as it will cost significant amounts of money to do so, making clans having to choose specific/strategic Outposts to take.
It also hopefully opens up the possibly for small clans to take Outposts.

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Originally Posted by Netphreak

They would be the most profitable ones yes as they are in the most used areas. However people will still want to take Outposts as they want their Bonuses (of course people only really want labs and factories).

Holding an Outpost should be something that requires effort to take and also maintain. If you want an OP you should also pay to maintain it. It stops clans taking over the entire map, as it will cost significant amounts of money to do so, making clans having to choose specific/strategic Outposts to take.
It also hopefully opens up the possibly for small clans to take Outposts.

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It would probably be a nice change, if the population were three times as big..
I do NOT want clans that cannot defend/attack when defender have people online, to hold OP's, just because the PvP clans cant afford to keep it.
I want OP's to be owned by PvP clans, and PvP clans only.

This has NOTHING to do with me wanting to owning as many clans as possible.
It is only because I want as many OPfights as possible, and a change like this would hurt OPfighting a lot (except for Regants and Cycrow).
Maybe in a game with 7-8 ACTIVE OPfighting clans...

Chicken and the egg walker. Changes to the op scene in general which as stated is THE biggest draw of this game essentially with other pvp being a very close second might just have that chance of drawing in new/old players and increase the pops. I say might as i still feel the balancing of the game is reason number 1 to get people back but thats not relevant for this discussion at the mo.

As I think divide said a number would need to be worked out for the maintenance costs. I think that this should be scaled also given the relative benefits of the ops themselves or the percieved value. Yes regants fortress and cycrow would be the top 2 but tesla/deveraux/foster all are close and would be beneficial to own. Eastgate is out of the way but would be useful to someone to own as it is still a factory and there are firemobs around there not to mention the woc tunnels/doy tunnels/Doy in the areas up there.

Factories/Labs themselves when opened would be highly beneficial to everyone if everyone could get a bonus from it. There is no reason not to go out there and build all your stuff if your a trader and have the gen rep marked and this is at any level which would generate revenue from the two trips. I would propose a payment being made for each trip from or to the genrep also not just one way.

There arent really any "useless ops" except for the uplinks themselves. To solve this issue i would probably create some areas where there are more mechanical mobs around them. If you want to style this in a lore sense you can just say the uplink has security programs that bring them online to defend it or something of that nature. Northstar uplink used to be a classic once upon a time for warbot farming. one of my earliest memories of shooting warbots was getting laughed at by ph34r on uranus for pulling out a rocket launcher (as a private eye) and using that on them because i hadnt been able to get a decent rifle. (was probably the first ever HC pe but i dont have screenies to prove this :P)

Considering the pve aspect of the game also. Has it ever occurred to anyone that people are funnelled through the levelling treadmill to regants once they are of a reasonable level because its generally the most accessible if you ignore the ease of running it compared to the xp gain. Imagine if Regants was harder and all of a sudden the world is opened up for the explorers and hunters (cause apparently people dont just play this game for pvp) with more areas and zones to go off and farm things in. It would provide more choice and that is the most important thing any game can offer a player. Choice. Freedom to choose what they want to do.

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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

Chicken and the egg walker. Changes to the op scene in general which as stated is THE biggest draw of this game essentially with other pvp being a very close second might just have that chance of drawing in new/old players and increase the pops. I say might as i still feel the balancing of the game is reason number 1 to get people back but thats not relevant for this discussion at the mo.

As I think divide said a number would need to be worked out for the maintenance costs. I think that this should be scaled also given the relative benefits of the ops themselves or the percieved value. Yes regants fortress and cycrow would be the top 2 but tesla/deveraux/foster all are close and would be beneficial to own. Eastgate is out of the way but would be useful to someone to own as it is still a factory and there are firemobs around there not to mention the woc tunnels/doy tunnels/Doy in the areas up there.

Factories/Labs themselves when opened would be highly beneficial to everyone if everyone could get a bonus from it. There is no reason not to go out there and build all your stuff if your a trader and have the gen rep marked and this is at any level which would generate revenue from the two trips. I would propose a payment being made for each trip from or to the genrep also not just one way.

There arent really any "useless ops" except for the uplinks themselves. To solve this issue i would probably create some areas where there are more mechanical mobs around them. If you want to style this in a lore sense you can just say the uplink has security programs that bring them online to defend it or something of that nature. Northstar uplink used to be a classic once upon a time for warbot farming. one of my earliest memories of shooting warbots was getting laughed at by ph34r on uranus for pulling out a rocket launcher (as a private eye) and using that on them because i hadnt been able to get a decent rifle. (was probably the first ever HC pe but i dont have screenies to prove this :P)

Considering the pve aspect of the game also. Has it ever occurred to anyone that people are funnelled through the levelling treadmill to regants once they are of a reasonable level because its generally the most accessible if you ignore the ease of running it compared to the xp gain. Imagine if Regants was harder and all of a sudden the world is opened up for the explorers and hunters (cause apparently people dont just play this game for pvp) with more areas and zones to go off and farm things in. It would provide more choice and that is the most important thing any game can offer a player. Choice. Freedom to choose what they want to do.

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I think what you've said addresses the points Dropout is making, also regarding the 'useless' Outposts which are basically the Uplinks, I think your idea could possibly be expanded on to make them trigger an event or something (but that's for another thread and I'll have to think it over first).

If this coincided with an overhaul of the outlay of higher level mobs in the wastes, such as mobs 76/76+ in OP zones (lots of OP zones have hardly anything worth hunting) as well as fixing other caves (Swamp Caves etc) this immediately makes all OP zones worth travelling to.

As Doc has already said, scale the cost of upkeep in relation to the popularity of the zone. Deduct from this cost how many people GR into that OP (so the price isn't fixed). If a clan then holds an outpost with excellent farming areas (say CRP), and polices it to attract more people (getting into RP territory here) I see no reason why they can't make a profit. Remember each faction (or corporation) has it's own commercial interest within each of their story lines.

I think this is a great idea and some good points raised, but I also agree with Walker that once I cap my chars and sort them out I like to do the occasional hunting with buddies but not farm cash.

I think that if a clan keeps GRs open (lock down automatically after layer 1) then there should be no tax on the clan's resources.

If however they want to lock them down then theres a "security charge" very similar to what Triv said or on the other hand they just receive nothing from shoppers/GR fees.

on another side note I never really thought regants fortress fitted in well as an OP - I always thought it should be more like a deserted castle (much like battle dome) but thats not really related