Idea about the PE weaponery.

Hello every one, I've read mainy threads about PE, and all of them are about the difficulty to balance the PE weaponery.

So the main problem is, hight lvl stuff need hight Primary Stat (INT, STR, CST, DEX and PSY). Every one knows that PE can not reach 115 DEX or STR, and I don't speak of PSY.

The main idea is simple, every stuff need 1 primary stat and 1 or 2 skills to be used (in fact it's 2 or 3 because psu and wl must be used).
Why not creating stuff that need 2 primary stats, the PE is a balanced class. I have some exemples in mind.

1/ The Jury ;) (I get this idea by reading another thread): DEX:100, STR:50, p-c:110, h-c:75

2/ Psy Gun: DEX:90, PSY:35, p-c or r-c: 110, fcs:60

3/ The Rambow (bow, also by reading another thread): DEX:85 , STR:70, m-c: 110, r-c:70

All these weapon can easely be used buy PE, but other classes like spy and tank could also use them with the good template meaning sometimes drugs. Exeption for the psy gun, i m not sure spy could reach 35 PSY, but all classes have guns other classes can't use.

P.S. all the stats I gave are only idea's and have to be balanced with TL of every weapon. More over all the non rare stuff could be used buy main other classes to exp the small primary stat like DEX for monk with a smaller TL of the psy gun.

P.S.S. Maybe this thread already exist but I didn't find it.

I think some of these requirements don't necessarily stack up, instead I think they simply need to make some Class: Private Eye items perhaps?

So here's my proposal, increase damage more on the lesser used weapons or make one/some of the following weapons Private Eye only:

Judge
Liberator
Wyatt Earp
Pain Easer
Terminator
Paw of Tiger

It would be nice to see a reasonable Hightech Rare Heavy Combat option for a Private Eye, one that was good enough for PVP, but would not see tanks flock towards it. Perhaps the Ravager's requirements should be lowered?

I don't think there is a Hightech option Rifle-wise for a Private Eye, I'm not sure if there needs to be. Perhaps just improve the damage of the Ionic Rifle and make it Class: Private Eye instead?

Would be interesting to hear other views?

This would be useful, because these weapons are currently completely overlooked by most runners, except perhaps the Ravager, but that's outshone by the Creed.

The ideas you mention have all been suggested before and are good ideas generally Khorwin. Making some from of 2ndary requirement on guns is a good idea also because it means that the PE is the only one who can use these weapons. This is a good thing.

Making a gun PE only will just say to people - roll a pe to use this. There is no reason "lore" wise why this should be and so has met with some resistance from other members of the community.

Cursedshadow - the reason your idea is not so good is because if you buff a low level gun to make it more viable then all the higher level classes will just use that gun and then stack out the rest of their brain chips with resistors etc and push their defence through the roof. This will make them instantly more viable than the PE is and therefore noone will use a PE. That means the problem is not solved but merely made worse.

There IS wholeheartedly a clear need for a high tech WORKABLE VIABLE rifle for the PE. Rifle PEs do need a high tech rare - pistol pes get one so rifle pes should too. You cannot eliminate an entire aspect of a class just on a whim. Everyone else gets it so they should too. More content = more fun.

William, I agree with most of your points too.

I do think we should be putting a Class restriction on some existing weapons, the only reason for this is that the rare pool is already saturated with unused weapons, we should not increase the rare pool. Instead I think the existing weapons need to be looked at, perhaps the damage can be increased on the weapons I stated, but ONLY if there is a Class requirement added. (Otherwise, as you stated, Spys and Tanks will simply spec to cap the lower TL weapons and fill their heads with more resistors)

There needs to be a stat that balances out the PE viable weapons so the spy can't overcap a low level rare leaving the PE in the dust. PE's have more STR so maybe add in a HC component that factors into damage for Rifles/pistols, this could possibly boost PE damage without altering spys too much. I know it makes little sense on the surface but Im just throwing idea's out there.

H-C from Strength or Endurance/Athletics from Con would work. As Spy PAs/Genotoxic/Holos take away from a Spy's Endurance.

If they were part of the weapon's requirement, or factored into the damage/freq calculation?

These ideas whilst good in one way (they are ideas after all) in another they make no sense really. If you give a gun an athletics requirement then it would slow down the PE - thus nerfing him in the process.

Having a raw strength requirement would work better - eg the recoil of the weapon means the weedy spy cant handle it or something.

Possibly a high weapon lore req on some weapons (coupled with a VERY LOW wpl cap e.g 100 to use and 125 to cap) might be viable. This puts a weapon firmly out of spy/tank use but retains the useability by the PE.

The first part is valid, but just because the Athletics is a requirement does not deter from your run speed. Also, I think Endurance is just as good, as it puts it out of arms length of a Spy unless they lower their con/defenses. Again Endurance can be used to justify the 'Recoil' scenario as you stated.

I'm not sure what you mean by the Weapon Lore part, surely this would lead to Spies being able to spec much less Weapon Lore to cap a viable PvP weapon?

Not with high strength added to it. This would mean that ONLY the pe can use it. High strength req, highish dex req and high weapon lore would leave this particular item only within the reach of the highest level private eyes.

If you put the weapon lore just above that of the HC tanks then you would leave them unable to use it even with dex implants giving weapon lore. Tanks at cap still have 10 dex lower than the pe bear in mind so a pistol/rifle tank cannot reach the same set up unless he has drugs etc. Theoretically if the tank uses dex chips and drugs he will just about get up to the level of the SF but not the CCP or DIP. So therefore with one less dex chip (due to having to use the Coord enhancement) and then whatever else to add dex (or damage) to reach high PE rares he will have a lower damage output and higher con and strength for resists. It makes him a viable option however - Possible replacement for low tech pes?

i dont believe we need to bring in new PEspecific items. the PE became nearly obsolete as the spy got too strong over the years. sorry to say that, but the spy has both too much damage and defense at hand. it shouldnt be a front line combat class, like today, but a specialist, hacking, stealthing, crafting. i believe this balance can be regained.

In fact, all those weapon I talk about already exist, you can change the bow into crossbow, psy gun into freeze gun and for the pistol launcher, he should exist or use the actual exec to put an aoe pistol for PE. ^^

I guess the 2 stats is a smater or a most elegant way than : PE only. Because other classes would be able to enjoy those weapon with a specific build. More over you can adapte the skill to lower weapon that can make the lvling time a more funny expirience for PE and the other classes.

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Originally Posted by Torg

i believe this balance can be regained.

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Classic torg post. Post stating an opinion or position which many may or may not agree with but then right at the end no follow up thought as to how this can be achieved. its one thing to provide an opinion but another to back it up with something substantive. i agree with your analogy on the spy. i do feel the same way but we need the hows and the whys. this is like making a sandwich and only putting salad in it without the meat or fish or whatever main filling. its only half done.

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Originally Posted by Faid

There needs to be a stat that balances out the PE viable weapons so the spy can't overcap a low level rare leaving the PE in the dust. PE's have more STR so maybe add in a HC component that factors into damage for Rifles/pistols, this could possibly boost PE damage without altering spys too much. I know it makes little sense on the surface but Im just throwing idea's out there.

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Or you know, NC1 damage cap, so the PE can use lower TL weapons in a very efficient manner while getting resists and spies can use higher TL weapons but with lower constitution. :)

With the right weapon and implant/armour balancing, along with giving PEs a meaningful way of increasing their defence (such as doing something with Psi), we won't have to ham-fistedly restrict certain weapons to the PE. The implant system favours high TL weapons and the defence options are appalling (PPR and... what?), fixing those would make lower TL weapons a viable choice again. It also doesn't help that most of the armour options for PEs are little better or no different than the Spy ones.

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Originally Posted by Dribble Joy

With the right weapon and implant/armour balancing, along with giving PEs a meaningful way of increasing their defence (such as doing something with Psi), we won't have to ham-fistedly restrict certain weapons to the PE. The implant system favours high TL weapons and the defence options are appalling (PPR and... what?), fixing those would make lower TL weapons a viable choice again. It also doesn't help that most of the armour options for PEs are little better or no different than the Spy ones.

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There is problem with upping PE defense, because PE already have a better defense than spy, when you see the PE self buff defense and spy self buff defense, PE have a better one. The fact is some weapon need to be less powerfull because they have a smaller TL. TL is a base of neocron's build.

The only thing I explain is that a hight TL weapon need endgame stuff to be used for every classes, we can make the same thing, an endgame stuff that PE could use easely than other classes. So those weapons could have there dps increased. If you only increase dps of low TL weapon, the spy and the tank will also esealy "cap" them and PE would stay behind the spy.

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Originally Posted by Neallys

Or you know, NC1 damage cap, so the PE can use lower TL weapons in a very efficient manner while getting resists and spies can use higher TL weapons but with lower constitution. :)

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This could also work :)

I think strange stat requirements is the only way to do this, none of the other weapons are restricted to one class only with a special tag like PA is, instead they have requirements that only one class can achieve comfortably and still be good with the weapon, a tank could use some highish TL rifles but he wouldn't have the necessary stats to be good with them. I don't think the weapons should have requirements of 2 different weaponskills like rifle and hc, just the two different mainstats is enough.

Really none of the stat requirements except strength and psi actually make sense, there's no reason a tank without any pistol skill shouldn't be able to pick up and shoot one, he should just aim terribly with it if he has no skill but this is a different issue altogether and not worth changing in Neocron 2. Maybe if that Neocron: Reloaded is ever made or Nc3.

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Originally Posted by Khorwin

There is problem with upping PE defense, because PE already have a better defense than spy, when you see the PE self buff defense and spy self buff defense, PE have a better one.

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Many PEs don't even bother with Psi. They use a dex glove to reach higher TL weapons. The benefits from the low level shields are minimal (8% for absorber IIRC, hardly worth it). Then when you get to team PvP, they are inconsequential, since they are over-ridden by PPU buffs.

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The fact is some weapon need to be less powerfull because they have a smaller TL. TL is a base of neocron's build

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Indeed, a key problem is that the high TL weapons do too much damage and the lower TL weapons don't do enough.

NC1 rollback - Sparta - Go.

I say just remove the pe; its borked now

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Originally Posted by Dribble Joy

Indeed, a key problem is that the high TL weapons do too much damage and the lower TL weapons don't do enough.

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You got it but, what I'm saying is that you can't just nerf high TL and up low TL. If you do so, every one will use the low tl weapon and the PE will stay behind the spy. So one solution could be to change prerequisite for some weapons so that they would be hight TL for every classes, and of course they could be competitive with TL 110+ DEX or STR guns.
In fact they would also be TL 110+ but they won't need a unique big stats but 2 average stats.

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Originally Posted by William Antrim

NC1 rollback - Sparta - Go.

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I know you already know this and are probably joking but for anyone else reading this who might not have heard, we've been told by KK that they lost all neocron files pre 2.2 so 2.0, 2.1 or NC1 can never happen again. :( I've never even played NC1 except for the demo but I'd love to see how it was, too bad it can't happen now.

I know this doesn't directly concerns weaponery and that it is yet another "Make it the way it was in NC1" but they should be able to just use Stealth I again. Jones stealth is really not that hard to anticipate and that makes the PE a little bit less viable.