Does anyone even want to play Neocron 2.2 if you could choose the version?

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30-01-13, 05:12
Legato

Does anyone even want to play Neocron 2.2 if you could choose the version?

I'm sure everyone can probably remember their most fun times in Neocron. I'm also 99% positive none of those times were in version 2.2 of this game. This version has to be the worst one of all that I've played through. I really do not like how the patch notes are going. Yes, we're seeing bug fixes and such, but we're not seeing anything major. This isn't an insult to the current development team, but rather a discouragement each time I read the notes. I'm expecting bigger changes-- dramatic changes. Right now we're just getting to some fixes.

It seems like the current development team is not even allowed to modify major changes to the game. Is this true or not? I'd really like an answer from the team about this. Are you even able to fulfill the demand if players want 2.1 or 1.0 instead?

If you had your choice, which would you rather play? Neocron 1? 2.1? 2.2? You don't need to be specific about which version you like best. IE: Neocron 1 pre-monk nerf, etc... just a generalization.

To name a few things wrong with this version that make me want to stop playing:
- broken resist setups
- largely unbalanced classes
- broken weapon classes (melee)
- "random" rare part drops. Some researchers have 30+ techs to cursed soul, but 0 addtechs. That's not "random." How many times do you see in trade people asking for techs to SF, addtech to CS, etc. Those are too rare.

I'd like to see some serious discussion on this matter. Please do not lock this topic, unless you're trying to silence us. :)
30-01-13, 05:28
yavimaya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legato

I'm sure everyone can probably remember their most fun times in Neocron. I'm also 99% positive none of those times were in version 2.2 of this game. This version has to be the worst one of all that I've played through. I really do not like how the patch notes are going. Yes, we're seeing bug fixes and such, but we're not seeing anything major. This isn't an insult to the current development team, but rather a discouragement each time I read the notes. I'm expecting bigger changes-- dramatic changes. Right now we're just getting to some fixes.

It seems like the current development team is not even allowed to modify major changes to the game. Is this true or not? I'd really like an answer from the team about this. Are you even able to fulfill the demand if players want 2.1 or 1.0 instead?

If you had your choice, which would you rather play? Neocron 1? 2.1? 2.2? You don't need to be specific about which version you like best. IE: Neocron 1 pre-monk nerf, etc... just a generalization.

To name a few things wrong with this version that make me want to stop playing:
- broken resist setups
- largely unbalanced classes
- broken weapon classes (melee)
- "random" rare part drops. Some researchers have 30+ techs to cursed soul, but 0 addtechs. That's not "random." How many times do you see in trade people asking for techs to SF, addtech to CS, etc. Those are too rare.

I'd like to see some serious discussion on this matter. Please do not lock this topic, unless you're trying to silence us. :)

1. Dont mean to seem rude, but dont you remember the past? the reason the game was never balanced is because there were always "dramatic changes", we need small consice changes! if any proper bug fixes and balancing is to be done, then it needs to be done slowly!!

2. Im sure they can change anything they like, with few exceptions, however its already been stated that the game cannot be taken back to NC1, that is even if they still had the assets (which im sure they got binned years ago, probably when the NC1 DB was binned), it would take ALOT more work than simply "sticking the code back in" and that would be more work than fixing what we have.

Personally, although the part/s you listed may be too rare, i think that rares in general are far too easy to get. How is a rare gun rare when everyone has one? or has 5x (almost) all of the parts to one/each gun?
30-01-13, 09:11
Doc Holliday

nc1 circa 2005. It wasnt the game that made me quit back then it was the community.

2.2 fucked my favourite class (The Lowtech No Pa wearing Rifle PE) and the supposed balance of a lot of things.

I still have hope it will one day get better.

NC2 was also ok as a 2nd choice. I love the Dome as an area to go and play in.
30-01-13, 09:47
Vorak

The more changes you introduce into a game the more bugs are there are to work out.

Not to say the devs don't know what they're doing. I'm sure there's a massive amount of code for this game for the devs to comb through. As a programmer, I know what a headache (to say the least) it can be to search through and find bugs. I can only imagine some what the original devs must have left. Sometimes you have to rewrite what you've done, which really sucks!

Cudos to the current devs for how much better they've improved the game since taking over.

To answer the version question, I prefer NC 2.2.
30-01-13, 09:51
L0KI

I'd go with NC1, just before the introduction of monk PAs. For anyone not around back then, monks were the second class to get PA, with tanks being the first.

From that point onward, I disliked almost every decision KK made for the game.

That being said, 2.1 was actually pretty fun. I played a hybrid in 2.1 that was actually pretty good. PE's were a little more viable, too.

***DISCLAIMER***

Despite me preferring NC1 (everyone knows this of me by now), I do NOT think we should go back to it. Or 2, or 2.1 for that matter. The reason being; the game has actually made some progress over the period that us fans of NC1 tend to forget.

In an ideal world, the current volunteer development team would take the best of NC2(.1/.2) and NC1, and create their own NC 2.3 over time, which is exactly what they're doing.
30-01-13, 11:06
Dropout

2.1 Was by far the most fun I've had in NC. Loved fighting against hybrids, and shitbuffing apu/ppu teams.
And no-PA PE's were viable!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by L0KI

In an ideal world, the current volunteer development team would take the best of NC2(.1/.2) and NC1, and create their own NC 2.3 over time, which is exactly what they're doing.

But.. This^
30-01-13, 11:29
nEo-1664

Legato, the current volunteer developement team, have said that they cant just jump in to old code and make all the best and greated changes in 1 hit.

What they are and have been doing to great levels of success so far has been to identify and fix many server stability issues, client stability issues, exploit fixes, and generally trying to get the game back to a stable platform. Of which, I think they have done really well so far, and I am looking forward to seeing more!

As for balancing, the dev team know this is on the agenda, but it is also not something that can be fixed in 1 patch. It requires a lot of time, work and effort, of which ideally you need the stable platform they are working to achieve at the moment.

I know you said your words are not meant to be insulting, but at the same time, there has been big changes since September. Changes that will help see a better future for Neocron. Because of that, I have nothing but praise for the entire support team, and I can see that by taking these smaller steps, will allow them to have a better understanding of the Neocron 12year old coding to make the balancing phases easier to complete later down the line.

<3 :)
30-01-13, 13:19
Zoltan

Quote:

Originally Posted by nEo-1664

Legato, the current volunteer developement team, have said that they cant just jump in to old code and make all the best and greated changes in 1 hit.

To clarify all the "switch back to NC 'insert old version here'" conversations around here. The old Neocron codebase is GONE, don't ask me why or how can it be, its a fact we have to live with because we are not able to change this.

We just working with the Neocron Evo 2.2 codebase and there is much more to do than "put a 1 here.. and a 6 there and..".

The team is currently working hard to get a nearly stable base version (for example: with a much better interpolation, fail calculations on damage outputs....). We'll rebalance the game completly to make it more fair AFTER we reach our goal of a the said stable base version.

Please understand that we dont have access to a 30 men team and it will take some time. You can enforce our development by doing some tests @ vedeena with a detailed testreport.

<3 @ all

Z
30-01-13, 13:36
L0KI

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoltan

To clarify all the "switch back to NC 'insert old version here'" conversations around here. The old Neocron codebase is GONE, don't ask me why or how can it be, its a fact we have to live with because we are not able to change this.

We just working with the Neocron Evo 2.2 codebase and there is much more to do than "put a 1 here.. and a 6 there and..".

The team is currently working hard to get a nearly stable base version (for example: with a much better interpolation, fail calculations on damage outputs....). We'll rebalance the game completly to make it more fair AFTER we reach our goal of a the said stable base version.

Please understand that we dont have access to a 30 men team and it will take some time. You can enforce our development by doing some tests @ vedeena with a detailed testreport.

<3 @ all

Z

Cannot say fairer than that.

I know many of us are crying out for the balance to be fixed, but when taking on a project like this, making the foundation for future updates as stable as possible simply has to be priority number 1.
30-01-13, 13:37
nEo-1664

I meant by 'old code' as in the current used coding. I realise I got a couple of details wrong there. I was typing between calls at work :p

My bad, much love :D <3

PS: Can we get a <3 emote on the forums? :p
30-01-13, 19:08
Danae

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoltan

To clarify all the "switch back to NC 'insert old version here'" conversations around here. The old Neocron codebase is GONE, don't ask me why or how can it be, its a fact we have to live with because we are not able to change this. Z

I can tell you why :P Because it was literally PURGED in 2008; along with all NC1 account data that was not upgraded to NC2 - deleted, gone, buhbye, as KK warned in 2008 repeatedly until it was eventually done :) I am chiming in here, because I repeatedly get the same question via accounts email support demanding is just "GIVE BACK MY NC ACCOUNT NOW!" and I have repeatedly explained, it's not a matter of I won't, it's a matter of I literally cannot, it's ALL GONE relating to NC1 [UNLESS you upgraded to NC2 in which case your data was converted to NC2 compatable].
30-01-13, 19:52
RogerRamjet

The formula changes NC1->NC2 messed a lot up in my opinion. Since then it seems to be the trademark sledgehammer approach. NC2 was OK as was 2.1 in my opinion. 2.2 unfortunately clearly came at a time when KK had no man power to dedicate to dealing with the issues with it's implementation.

I'd just like to see all classes being viable again. If this happens due to a slight regression, so be it.
30-01-13, 20:14
Mokoi

Folks, please stop suggesting a rollback to better times.
Zoltan has already explained it cannot happen.

Downgrading to older patchlevels is technically not feasible. A "lets roll back to Patch #1337 and be jolly" is not a realistic scenario.
The only path we can take is the path forward and that means fixing the status quo.
30-01-13, 20:18
Torg

for a spy NC1 was hell. there was no stealth, disruptor, silent hunter, any sniper rifles, any street rifles beyond 23, no PA. and still spys were taking part in OP wars. so ill take NC2 over NC1 any time. even 2.2, which isnt soo bad. odd imp values? so what, you'll either get to use that weapon or not. we have to remember that KK (and/or its mother company) went bankrupt more than one time, so especially 2.2 was never really finished. which is going too happen really soon, so this is the best we can get.

and i'd like more variety/individuality in our chars, too.
30-01-13, 20:30
RogerRamjet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torg

for a spy NC1 was hell. there was no stealth, disruptor, silent hunter, any sniper rifles, any street rifles beyond 23, no PA.

Maybe early NC, but I could name some extremely competent Spies. Spies were certainly very viable in NC1.
30-01-13, 20:41
Dropout

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokoi

Folks, please stop suggesting a rollback to better times.
Zoltan has already explained it cannot happen.

Downgrading to older patchlevels is technically not feasible. A "lets roll back to Patch #1337 and be jolly" is not a realistic scenario.
The only path we can take is the path forward and that means fixing the status quo.

Hopefully people will stop asking for rollbacks to earlyer stages of NC, when the balancing starts..
(I Wonder how many times a day I mention balancing? lol)
30-01-13, 21:21
Sechs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokoi

Folks, please stop suggesting a rollback to better times.
Zoltan has already explained it cannot happen.

Well, since you obviously don't listen to your customer base, everyone should just stop paying you guys.

Oh wait...
30-01-13, 21:23
phunqe

[Never mind]
30-01-13, 23:27
Kame

The weapons/class balanced was at its best in 2.1, even taking monks into consideration.

Besides rolling back patches, there MUST be a way to emulate what that balance from back then was.
31-01-13, 00:22
Mokoi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kame

The weapons/class balanced was at its best in 2.1, even taking monks into consideration.

Remembering those times, the balance was in fact so good, that KK was urged by large parts of the (forum) community to do a major overhaul of the balancing system. Sadly it was part rushed part ill designed and here we are. ;)

Neocron has had its good share of half assed whacky quickfix emulations. We see our time best put to use by replacing the layers of sticky tape with a clean and stable basis (within a limited scope of course), not by adding another layer. This means that things take longer now, but we may end up in a position where we have less fubar on our plate and more time to add fun things or work on graphics etc. When I say "things take longer", compare the current pace to the last half decade. We've already made proper balancing a priority and we have settled the decision to not tweak and play around with the current item stats. Anyone still asking for a balancing to happen is wasting his/her breath - it will come as soon™ as possible and not a minute earlier.
31-01-13, 11:56
DR REED

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokoi

Remembering those times, the balance was in fact so good, that KK was urged by large parts of the (forum) community to do a major overhaul of the balancing system. Sadly it was part rushed part ill designed and here we are. ;)

Very nice- true irony :)

Although there are undeniable fails in the changes NC 2.2 brought with Neocron was called "Monkocron" before. And this is a major positive achievem�nt that the 2.2 Version did: it corrected the role of the fatal APU/PPU pair.

The glass cannon APU never worked balanced. The APU had no need for aiming, no need for a line of sight (LOS) and a very high damage output/ frequency. Paired with a PPU which was the common playstyle for most of the pvp clans an APU was nearly invincible. With too high speed he ran around, made lots of damage without LOS and the PPU backuped him and froze the target down to nullspeed.

This winning.-team setup was dominating all the pvp and op fights and was the favored combination even oft the worsest ganker/cheater clans (Mars) like CGS/BiBo.

No one could wish this return.

So intelligent balancing is all, but this was surely one of the most positive issues of patch 2.2!

Reed
31-01-13, 12:02
nabbl

Including the new armor setting...

I like that extra slot for PAs and the additional armors. Also some of the new implants are quite nice (e.g. CAG Gloves)
Another thing ist the transparency you have with the damage logs.

We have some advantages I really do not want to miss anymore.
31-01-13, 13:21
Netphreak

Quote:

Originally Posted by nabbl

Including the new armor setting...

I like that extra slot for PAs and the additional armors. Also some of the new implants are quite nice (e.g. CAG Gloves)
Another thing ist the transparency you have with the damage logs.

We have some advantages I really do not want to miss anymore.

This. ^

While I really miss how much fun playing a PE used to be back then using a Paineaser or RoG with no need to drug like hell to use higher level weapons just to compete, I do like the extra items that have been added to the game since NC1.

One thing I really do miss from NC1 (besides the cool player models, but that's a topic that has been discussed and answered many times), is the fluidity of actions. Casting spells and firing weapons (actions) seemed to be far more responsive than they have been once NC2 was released/implemented.

Also for some reason I'm thinking there was a 'soft' cap on run speed in NC1 which helped balance things a bit.
E.g. With weapons drawn Spies and PE's would be a good bit faster than a tank, but that was balanced by the fact that a tanks weapon did much more damage. So a skilled tank who could aim was deadly (leg shots FTW).

The devs are doing great work and we're seeing real changes/improvements after each patch.
31-01-13, 13:31
nabbl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netphreak

Also for some reason I'm thinking there was a 'soft' cap on run speed in NC1 which helped balance things a bit.
E.g. With weapons drawn Spies and PE's would be a good bit faster than a tank, but that was balanced by the fact that a tanks weapon did much more damage. So a skilled tank who could aim was deadly (leg shots FTW).

Yes you are right! The runspeed is too high in my opinion. There is a youtube movie from PetaLustig in the R180-Patch-Thread where you can see how fast the game is. I don't think that it has to be like that.
31-01-13, 17:38
RogerRamjet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokoi

Remembering those times, the balance was in fact so good, that KK was urged by large parts of the (forum) community to do a major overhaul of the balancing system. Sadly it was part rushed part ill designed and here we are. ;)

From my experience of the period, it was not necessarily a large part of the community, but the most vocal, especially on the forums.
31-01-13, 17:47
Ivan Eres

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerRamjet

From my experience of the period, it was not necessarily a large part of the community, but the most vocal, especially on the forums.

Those who influenced the process on the forums were the most vocal, that's true. It's the same in RL too, the most vocal get what they want usually.

But besides that everybody knew that Monko'cron was a PITA
31-01-13, 19:20
Doc Holliday

I think i speak for a lot of people when i say this but no one expects a magical rollback to 2.1/2.0/1.0. However People are stating opinions on what period they liked in this thread myself included. I am sure (being human) that we are all putting on our pink glasses and remembering the good and not the bad with this but there are things we would all wish to see back which will take time to fix.

I want to see the rifle pe make a return to form. others desire other things. I think when we talk about the good times thats what we are remembering and not how well (or skewed) the balance was back then.

When i checked back over the patch notes for the time period i said i missed i realised that was actually the heyday of monkocron. So yes i made a minor mistake there :) but there are times when i truly did love this game and times when i despised it for the changes/nerfs it made. 2.2 isnt implemented we all realise this but hopefully it wont be long before neocron makes its recovery.

Ps. Get testing FOOKERS!!! :) that will only help.
31-01-13, 20:09
L0KI

Does anyone else remember when copbots used to say more than just 'Drop that weapon'?

In NC1, you were given a warning, followed by:

'Put your weapon down'
'I said, put your weapon away'
'Okay now that's enough. Open fire'

Am I missing something or did these sounds get dropped?
31-01-13, 20:47
Kame

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokoi

Remembering those times, the balance was in fact so good, that KK was urged by large parts of the (forum) community to do a major overhaul of the balancing system. Sadly it was part rushed part ill designed and here we

Tweaks were demanded, yes, but KK completely broke a class (PE), broke weapons types (pistols, melee), added useless items which no one ever wanted (nanites), and even went as far as making some setups impossible, like no PA HC PEs, APU hybrid, blessed hybrid, melee PEs, by tweaki g the values of implants and armor.

While all we asked was tweaking, and mainly to the monk class, we got a brand new item/char setup mechanics.

I still stand by my post that 2.1 was, to me, the best in terms of setups and items.
01-02-13, 00:17
Ivan Eres

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kame

added useless items which no one ever wanted (nanites)

Nanites were actually wanted by many ppl because it made PPUs even more redundant in PvP.

People wanted to be able to fight without a PPU and they wanted to be able to compete with a PPU backed fighter.

I guess people were hating monks a lot back then, and especially PPUs.

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