The APU Question

So, APUs.
They went from being the only class worth having in a team fight in 2.0/2.1, to being pretty much the worst pick in 2.2.
Common suggestions to bring APUs back to relevance revolve around increasing frequency and damage to make them competetive numerically again.
I don't think this will work. Make APUs have an equivilant "damage * toughness" value as tanks, and we quickly plunge back into monk-o-cron (The alternative is making APUs a true "glass cannon", but I'm not sure that anybody really wants that. A class that can destroy somebody almost immediatley if they get the drop, but shatters if seen coming and takes hits - rather un-Neocron) . Not only as the weakest defenders with the slowest heal do APUs have the most to gain from PPU buffs, they also have bucketloads of int that can be put into side skills. The game of team-combat quickly becomes about ignoring their tanks to focus the more dangerous (and squishier) APUs down first, and the best way to do that is with more APUs of your own. No, I feel that tanks have to remain the ultimate pure combat class - after all they aren't good for anything else, and the best fighters using huge guns feels much more cyberpunk than mages being the top dogs. PEs and Spys have greater independence and can perform additional roles (although again both need to be looked at somewhat).

So what then, if making APUs into high damage/poor defence machines will create a game that we don't want, should be done with this class? Lots of people on here have backed the idea of an APU role change. I suggest filling a role that Neocron hasn't realy bothered with - make APUs primarily debuffers. Let APUs continue to have their curret set of spells (although perhaps a bit less variety may be a good plan - is a full set of bolts AND lances AND beams AND halos really needed?). Reduce the damage/time a little from where it is (frequency can go up if it's going to make them more fun to play). And give them a whole bunch more spells that looks something like this (all numbers are to be tuned, some of these ideas to be thrown out/radically redone):

• Damage Boost - pretty core to the new debuff role. Works essentially like it does now, although requiring a few less overcasts would be good.
• Antishield spells - Yep, give all these (back) to APUs too. No more holy antibuff/unprotector though. Make them all cast a little quicker, but also require picking an individual shield/buff.
• Reduce Focus - Reasonably slow cast. Provides a 10 second reduction in damage output by the target - 5/7.5/10% for basic/holy/blessed (scales off dmg%).
• Distract Mind - Yes that old thing. Interrupts the current action of the target. Be that spell casting, reloading, attack animation, whatever. Probably quick cast (have to use it at the right time) but HUGE mana cost.
• Stumble - To be implemented first in a test environment, and considered carefully just how people feel about the impact of it. Abandoned if it feels cheap or unfun. Causing the target to stumble, preventing movement (but not aim or attack) briefly (less than 1 second) for players, longer for NPCs.
• Illusion - replace the target with psi-projected image of them (giving the target a very brief, eg 1 second) stealth, moving mob aggro to the projection for as long as it lasts (returns to "real" target with projection disapearance).
• Others - any other spells people can suggest that fit into a "debuff" class role. I'm sure better can be done than this

So, what's the hope from this:

• That APUs really have a clear purpose in the game
• An additional playstyle is available
• That PEs and Spies might consider speccing APU, PPU or PSR as a choice.
• That with the right values for these sort of skills, and the right damage on their attack weapons, APUs might be a viable "one-on-one" class, but in a very different way to PEs/Spies (who need to be more different, but thats another kettle of fish) who are different to tanks.
• That the PvE and PvP games both got a little more sophisticated than "hit thing 'till it falls over"
• A lot of the silly abti-hybrid features could hopefully be removed or toned down

"Citizens of Neocron, our history is giving just the right answers on this question: As you all know, back in early 2558 Thor and his tribesman started a powerful attack on the city, that time ruled by Crahn and his psi-monks. Thors warriors had brand-new plasma guns, so they won. in other words: the psi-monks lost because they were weaker. and that was even before gentanks were stepping in by the year 2576. and i want to make clear, that all demands for stronger psi-monks do not come from the middle of our society, but from a fringe population of youngsters, idling in front of their hometerms and wasting valuable time to online-games like "world of orcs- and elves-huggers".

in other words, i support cmasters ideas for an apu-role-change

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Originally Posted by CMaster

[...]make APUs primarily debuffers[...]

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My only idea was the (what you called) "glass cannon" approach for the APU but this is so much better.

It also makes very much sense to have this kind of teaming between APU and PPU anyway.

/signed

Lets try this please. Also maybe think about giving apus DoT that lasts longer than the normal ak/bhg stacks.

Essentially what you are asking for is a role reset on the APU to go back to how he was originally. I am happy with that.

The only way the game would go back to Monkocron though is if the APU was the only one who had the antibuff. If you gave the PEs an antibuff that required STR and INT for example (So that only the PE could use it at high end/cap) then you would give him a role at op fights too. The PE has shit damage at the moment but he can kill an unbuffed player fairly well. It wouldnt be op fights bringing ALL apus then either. It would focus on bringing the mix of antibuffers/damage dealers/healers. In this case a team would have to choose to focus its attention on the damage dealers, the healers etc etc.

Besides you cannot apply science to op fights. Everyone knows that. The best battle plan in the world goes to rat shit as soon as the plasma starts to fly.

Damage Boost - no leave it as ppu thanks. The ppu solo needs something he can affect damage with, if it ever comes to that point.
Antishield spells - Yep, give all these (back) to APUs too. No more holy antibuff/unprotector though. Make them all cast a little quicker, but also require picking an individual shield/buff. Give this to PE as well.
Reduce Focus - no thanks
Distract Mind - PVE maybe, not PVP
Stumble - worse than parashock, no thanks.
Illusion - possible PVE use


Make the lances or whatever a ranged spell, something more like the rifles are currently.

Make the APU have range and a decent RoF and with current values for damage he is fine. This whole reticle closed for damage thing is crap too. It needs to be removed. The only thing that the reticle closure should effect is the % chance of spell fizzle - ie a miss. The same as guns have.

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Originally Posted by BlueRobot

Lets try this please. Also maybe think about giving apus DoT that lasts longer than the normal ak/bhg stacks.

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This too, for poison and fire please. To combat the spys stealth.


This way everyone on the battlefield can fulfill at least one role and some classes can fulfill two, making them even more valuable.

The APU can already use an antibuff with nanites but it is maybe not really a good implementation.

I know this is kinda thread necromancy, but I didn't want to start a new topic on something that had been discussed recently. In regards to the OP I honestly like the role of a glass cannon, or at least having it be an option. I see where you're going, and think it's cool and all but what about those (like myself) who enjoy APU because it is a glass cannon? I also thought that a lot of your thoughts where very PVP centric, but PVE must be taken into account. I honestly just think that, as it was in 2.2 (haven't played since then, just noticed that the game was getting updates) the monks where just too much glass and not enough cannon. I am not sure about the changes made since then (I am downloading now), but I would honestly enjoy my APU being a glass cannon, and I think that if you find the right balance, that would be a very enjoyable class. Just my two cents really. I am not an expert, but I do LOVE this game and I really enjoy playing APUs, but I would like them to keep their glass cannon role personally.

On another note, how are APUs doing now? In both PVE and PVP. Any answer is appreciated.

Edit: Whoa, I just realized how old this thread is, sorry about that. I should remember to check dates next time. Sorry again. I would still really appreciate an answer to my question though, if it's no trouble.

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Originally Posted by William Antrim

Essentially what you are asking for is a role reset on the APU to go back to how he was originally. I am happy with that.

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No, I'm asking for the APU to be a class that survives of the strength of debuffs, not pure damage. They make their targets weaker, then kill them while weak. This could be balanced so that they are strong enough 1-on-1, while meaning that it never makes sense to have nothing but monks in group fights. At the same time, there is almost always a use for an APU in a group. I honestly think that if the only difference between classes is different damage/health ratios, we'll forever see people stacking whichever class is slightly favored by the vaugeries of the balance at that point.

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Make the lances or whatever a ranged spell, something more like the rifles are currently.

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Have to 100% agree with your idea of making the large number of different APU spells actually behave differently, rather than all having very similar range/freq/damage. (Outside of a few weirdos like Ball and Ball Blast)

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Originally Posted by Dracain

I know this is kinda thread necromancy, but I didn't want to start a new topic on something that had been discussed recently.

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Personally, as long as the same issues are being discussed, I'd rather see old threads reused, rather than new ones started (note - once there has been some significant balance changes, I think new threads make more sense). Not sure how anyone else would feel though.

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Originally Posted by Dracain

In regards to the OP I honestly like the role of a glass cannon, or at least having it be an option. I see where you're going, and think it's cool and all but what about those (like myself) who enjoy APU because it is a glass cannon? I also thought that a lot of your thoughts where very PVP centric, but PVE must be taken into account. I honestly just think that, as it was in 2.2 (haven't played since then, just noticed that the game was getting updates) the monks where just too much glass and not enough cannon. I am not sure about the changes made since then (I am downloading now), but I would honestly enjoy my APU being a glass cannon, and I think that if you find the right balance, that would be a very enjoyable class. Just my two cents really. I am not an expert, but I do LOVE this game and I really enjoy playing APUs, but I would like them to keep their glass cannon role personally.

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APUs have never (at least in my time of playing the game, from ~NC2 launch) been glass cannons. They were, from NC2 launch to 2.2, the highest damage/second weakest defence class. (Spies, unless they popped lots of drugs were squishier). That doesn't make them glass cannons. Buffed up by PPUs, they were very, very tough, and even without PPU buffs, they didn't drop anything like fast enough to earn the "glass" monkier. Equally, while they hit very hard, they've never really hit hard enough to justify being glass. A true glass cannon need to get the drop on their opponent, take them by surprise - but when they do, there's almost no chance to comeback. Equally, if they glass cannon is caught out, they should smash just as quickly as they would shatter their target. And here we come to a big issue with a glass cannon in an MMORPG - it's awful for PvE against typical targets. Mobs have big, big piles of hp, and you kill them by wearing that away. A glass cannon really struggles with this, as they aren't able to burst down mobs before they can come back, so their poor defense makes solo hunting really, really hard for them. My idea to do with debuffs was hopefully to make APU solo PvE a more viable prospect, especially as a less high damage class can be treated more generously with regards to heals and the like (an obvious option is some kind of "vampire" spell)

http://www.thegreenmachine.eu/images/likes.jpg

Part of me likes that idea, and part doesn't. I misinterpreted what you where asking for. I was thinking that you wanted to turn APU into a debuffer completely. Frankly, I like being the high damage guy, so I don't really want that role to be taken away from me. Though if you added the option to be a debuffer, I would think that to be quite cool.

I'm still unsure about this. It will be very hard to make debuffing not an absolute necessity (HAB on APUs is classic example) or a waste of time (anti-buff nanites).

In all honesty, I personally only care to get rid of all the antispells from the PPU. One way or the other ;)

[x] i vote for cmaster. and his apu concept.

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Originally Posted by phunqe

In all honesty, I personally only care to get rid of all the antispells from the PPU. One way or the other ;)

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Yeah I think that most people agree that they don't belong to the PPU!

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Originally Posted by Dracain

Frankly, I like being the high damage guy, so I don't really want that role to be taken away from me. Though if you added the option to be a debuffer, I would think that to be quite cool.

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Well yes, obviously one of the problems with this is it takes APUs away from where they used to be, gives different reasons to enjoy and dislike playing them. On the other hand however, APUs can never go back to what they once were, as it was vastly unfair.

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Originally Posted by Dribble Joy

I'm still unsure about this. It will be very hard to make debuffing not an absolute necessity (HAB on APUs is classic example) or a waste of time (anti-buff nanites).

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The idea is that using the debuffs will be necessary to play as an APU. In terms of pure damage/time they wouldn't be able to compete with a tank, or probably a PE or Spy either. However, by using their debuff abilities, they'd be able to turn it into a fair fight.
This would also hopefully mean that having an APU or two in a team would always be useful - it would enable you to weaken or neutralize the star-members of the opposition team. However, it would never make sense to bring nothing but APUs, as once a target has been debuffed, a tank will do more damage than an APU would to the debuffed target. APUs would be expected to focus more heavily on the debuff role and less on hitting stuff in big team operations than they would during solo play, where they'd use some debuff abilities, but mostly focus on attacking.



The core concept is two-fold. On the aesthetic side, the idea is to make the APU the literal opposite of the PPU. The PPU heals and strengthens a target, the APU damages and weakens. On the balance side, it's to make APU a distinct playstyle, rather than having two classes (tank and apu) who do nothing but look at the target while holding down the mouse button, and at the same time make APUs useful contributors to a team, without ever being the only thing you need in a team.

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Originally Posted by CMaster

The core concept is two-fold. On the aesthetic side, the idea is to make the APU the literal opposite of the PPU. The PPU heals and strengthens a target, the APU damages and weakens. On the balance side, it's to make APU a distinct playstyle, rather than having two classes (tank and apu) who do nothing but look at the target while holding down the mouse button, and at the same time make APUs useful contributors to a team, without ever being the only thing you need in a team.

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I really like that idea! But it should be a very smooth style of play. the apu should be also able to compete in 1on1s versus unbuffed players. The OP-Fight role, as you describe above is something I really would like to see happen.

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Originally Posted by CMaster

Well yes, obviously one of the problems with this is it takes APUs away from where they used to be, gives different reasons to enjoy and dislike playing them. On the other hand however, APUs can never go back to what they once were, as it was vastly unfair.



The idea is that using the debuffs will be necessary to play as an APU. In terms of pure damage/time they wouldn't be able to compete with a tank, or probably a PE or Spy either. However, by using their debuff abilities, they'd be able to turn it into a fair fight.
This would also hopefully mean that having an APU or two in a team would always be useful - it would enable you to weaken or neutralize the star-members of the opposition team. However, it would never make sense to bring nothing but APUs, as once a target has been debuffed, a tank will do more damage than an APU would to the debuffed target. APUs would be expected to focus more heavily on the debuff role and less on hitting stuff in big team operations than they would during solo play, where they'd use some debuff abilities, but mostly focus on attacking.



The core concept is two-fold. On the aesthetic side, the idea is to make the APU the literal opposite of the PPU. The PPU heals and strengthens a target, the APU damages and weakens. On the balance side, it's to make APU a distinct playstyle, rather than having two classes (tank and apu) who do nothing but look at the target while holding down the mouse button, and at the same time make APUs useful contributors to a team, without ever being the only thing you need in a team.

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This is what should had been done for 2.2 to defuse Monko'cron.

@Nabbl - to clarify, a lot of the abilities (and the general focus of the ideas) are "debuffs" not "antibuffs" - that is they weaken a player from their base state, rather than removing a boost. Damage boost is one example that is in game at the moment.ie

However that does raise one issue with regards to balancing that is of some concern:
In one-on-one fights, some classes rely more on shields than others (PE > Spy >> Tank/APU). So there's a risk that APUs will either be too strong vs PEs, or too weak vs tanks. Of course, maybe the answer to that is that the antibuff skills need to be balanced so that they are only worth doing vs Holy buffs, and a waste of time against PE-level shields (which is likely the case anyhow)

Check this out:

http://forum.neocron-game.com/showth...PU-PPU-changes

I'd really enjoy a role change as proposed by Cmaster. I'd really like to see and especially play that ingame.
Thumbs up for that!

The whole APU situation is something i've been trying to give a lot of thought recently.

Having a lot of experience playing both sides of this class back in NC1 some fundamentals are core, ppu's should not be debuffing as previously stated not only does this mean you get ppu's for healing and ppu's for debuffing with ppu's on ppu's on ppu's on and so on. Back in NC1 just before the death we got to a place where we used to do (on pluto at least) a 5 v 5 v 5 v 5 v 5 op fight where all clans would gather their team of 5, within restrictions (1 ppu) and duel it out and the last standing would win the op.

This usually ended in a ppu and tank left standing at the end, apu's would be drilled, spys didn't stand much of a chance and pe's died off not long after. Tactically taking out classes would be a necessity but you would always want a spread of classes, bringing PE's and Spy's allowed them to be more self sufficient and allow the ppu to focus on the apu/tank and blah blah, I digress but the point i'm trying to make was there was a point of semi stability back then where apu's were strong, but they could not take a tank on 1v1 toe to toe (even with insta lock full dmg aiming) then you add the ppu x factor and tank + ppu vs apu vs ppu, this is what I would call a skill matchup and could go either way depending on the skill of each player.

So how do we fix the current situation, while I like the idea of the debuff bot I don't think making monks a pure support class through heals or debuffs and weakenings is the way to go. People are saying you can't make apu's glass cannons because what if they get caught alone, or how do they farm, well that is a hinderence of the class, if you want to be able to farm warbots then make a spy/pe, firemobs, make a tank, heal make a ppu you cannot balance by maknig a class globally viable for everything, this is why we have 4 slots on the accounts.

People have mentioned all the different spells monks have, but at a higher level interms of rares it is a lot smaller pool. I say we fix frequency for apu's, if you want to nerf the frequency of spells don't do it through the actual freq but through the cost of mana, this goes for anti buff, and any other spell that you don't want religiously spammed, this could also be fixed through the handling, making it so the spell can't be fully run cast will mean apu's having to pick their targets, and pause a brief second to unload this large amount of dmg, creating a window for them to be caught by tanks or enemys of any class.

These are just a few of the potential idea's I have on the subject, obviously a large amount of testing is needed to be done to find the right medium for dmg, freq, handing, mana cost and everything on this subject but getting back to this place is essential for the game to evolve from how many tanks and ppu's can you bring to a fight?

In an additional note, but down the same theme someone earlier in the thread mentioned parashock, the P word omg, and don't get me wrong I have had my days of fun chasing down dmg boosted spy's with my holy para laughing as I chip them down at 20 health a hit! But in my honest opinion a level of this needs to be re-implemented, again with testing and potential changes as with the apu's to mana cost, for example would you consider 1 parashock on someone if it reduced their movement speed by 50% but took all your mana and 3 seconds to cast? possibly situation dependent ofc but without a para it means movement speed is king end of. With talks of the changes coming, caps to movement speed and other things I think this is also a subject that needs to be addressed.

Also once debuff is back with apu's give it the massive lines coming out of it again!

I quite agree with Cannings point of view. I just don't think APU should be support via debuffs. It doesn't really fit the core ideology of the class.

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Originally Posted by Dracain

I just don't think APU should be support via debuffs. It doesn't really fit the core ideology of the class.

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This is a statement I would like to see explained.
To me, APU should not be considered a class, but a specific skill setup for a class: namely the Psi Monk.

It is no doubt easier to balance PPU and APU as two separate and single purpose classes, so KK chose to split the Monk class. Speaking of "the core" of the class, I think this narrow and unflexible separation destroyed much of what made it special.

The glasscannon problem of monks is only a problem when you stick with the harsh separation of APU/PPU skillsets. There is no question that the combination of both allowed for too powerful setups in the past, but I think the class lost a huge deal of its 'core trait' when the freedom was removed to gradually position your char on the scale of robustness and damage output... but that is a topic in itself.

Regarding the debuff:
Monks used to have a subskill called "Exotic Psi" which would nicely cover manipulative modules such as debuffs. Also, I don't see why this could not be reintroduced to allow any type of monk to give up some specialization (APU/PPU) to use a variety of "Exotic Psi" modules. Why must everything be strictly APU or strictly PPU? Complexity and flexibility in char setups are more difficult to balance, but it is also inherently more fun. :)

IIRC exotic PSI was a skill that never ever ever worked, so i'm not sure why you're floating that as a solution when its never even been implemented.

Also I have no clue what the hell you're waffling on about when you say APU and PPU should not be seperated, thats like saying melee and hc tanks should not be because they are both tanks, pistol and rifle spies should not be your points are terrible and you make no sense. Yes they are all skill variations, but that is the whole point of the spells, skills and such. To put it into an easier to understand visual for you, it effectively 2 different routes down a talent tree, both of which need to be balanced and both need to be considered as an individual class.

Hybrids were removed and for good reason imo, they were impossible to balance at the same time as trying to balance apu and ppu individually. The problems that have led for things to get into the way they are is by lots of whining and lots of bending to the general consensus. What needs to be done is a clear plan by the powers that be as to what needs to be where and when and how and to get that right and then stick to it. No one is ever going to be 100% happy with their class, or with other peoples classes against them, which is why the decision needs to be made and stuck to, input is a great thing but it is almost always biased.

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Originally Posted by Cannings

IIRC exotic PSI was a skill that never ever ever worked, so i'm not sure why you're floating that as a solution when its never even been implemented.

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Of course it worked, just like any other skill.
What did not work were a lot of exotic psi modules/effects.

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Also I have no clue what the hell you're waffling on about when you say APU and PPU should not be seperated

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You speak about debuff modules being untrue to the core of the class. I say that what constitutes the core of the class is to be debated, because for me it is not the same as it is for you and historically it has been very different from the status quo. I see no reason why a monk that leans towards offensiv skills should not use a debuff module. They did in the past, even when there was a separation in two separate skilltrees (which clearly, I am no big fan of).

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Hybrids were removed and for good reason imo, they were impossible to balance at the same time as trying to balance apu and ppu individually.

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They failed to balance hybrids, yes. That does not mean it is impossible. There have been many suggestions as to how it could be done better. Either way - I did not mean to switch this thread into a hybrid discussion - sorry for that :)

I am however still waiting for your explanation of why debuff modules are "not true" to the core of the APU? Is it not an aggressive spell?

I don't remember ever saying the words "true to the core" in any of my posts, my point of not making APU's into a debuff, dmg boost bot is that it would remove a CORE aspect of the game itself. Are we really going to devolve the entire game into a guns, cannons and pistols only for dmg types? Neocron always has been lightning from the sky, plasma blobs from the massive hulks running at you and people sniping you from afar, to make it weapon only would be to cut off a leg.

I personally am not a massive fan of debuffing in general, sure it used to be a necessity when ppu's could shelter, defl and holy heal and their subject would survive armageddon and the meteor that killed the dinosaurs, but that's not the case anymore, there are more dmg type's, higher incoming dmg, and less str on shields, heals and the like. Now with 3 shields to recast, and a heal that doesn't make you survive anything, its an antibuff and insta death, this will not lead to epic op fights but to short engagements that don't last long at all.

While I realise i'm not getting way off topic, but the aim should never have been to increase the ways to kill buffed people but to remove the reliance on the amount of ppu's, the nerfs to spells did this but then they gave ppu's antibuff, it completely defies logic.

My personal pref would be bring apu's back in their glass cannon form, decrease heals and shields even more, give anti buff back to apu's although its use will be massively diminished, increase health pools and resists to a point where fights take longer, not because there are 5 ppu's with 10 shields but because the amount of dmg dealt is reduced. PPU's will be needed for rezzes/primary buffs but beyond that the number of them won't influence the fight.

I have to say, I'm not in love with the idea (though this is entirely subjective), but on a somewhat more objective note, I also reject one of the main premises behind it. The claim that an APU being high dmg but lower surviveability (but not the the insta gib level you described as one of your options) would create monk o cron doesn't have to be true. Old monk o cron was largely due to two interconnected factors.

1) PPUs are AMAZING at boosting surviability by a fairly flat factor. That is to say, you have two players and one of them has "double" the serviceability of the other (say resists wise), after they are both buffed by the PPU, this relationship will no longer hold. That is to say the two players will be fairly close defense wise. Note that there is no similar effect for dmg. This obviously massively biases the game towards PPUs+ the highest dmg dealing class.... APUs. This doesn't have to be the case, if PPUs scaled a players innate survivability more properly, this effect wouldn't be there.

2) APUs had antibuff, I know this point has been pretty beaten to death, but when PPU buffs are so amazingly tide turning, the only ability in the game which removes them will obviously be amazingly valuable. It was pretty much a no brainier that whatever sole dmg dealing class has antibuff will be king. The obvious solution here is to allow every class some (different) way of at least partially bipassing buffs on a single target. The flipside should be that a PPU devoting all his energy to a target can negate these efforts (though he may not be able to do this for a target and himself if they are both having these abilities used on them). This would lower the PPU>All effect seen in pvp (somewhat), and also make every class viable (and hopefully unique).


I will say this, tanks should be the most well rounded combat character. They should be good solo, good in teams, scale well with PPU support, be super tanky, and do great dmg. That doesn't mean they should be the best combat char in every specific role. It's not a problem if in some situations anther class is better (combat wise). If PEs are super versatile in a solo fashion, thanks should fill that role in a team, they are always helpful and good to have. That doesn't mean they need to do the most dmg and take the most dmg in every fight.