Why Neocron is the last true old-school MMO, and why it's still the best.

After a post in another thread I felt like making a true tribute thread with all the reasons:


Neocron still doesn't hold your hand, you have to earn everything and you're expected to be able to read a manual and figure things out for yourself without a 90-part tutorial.

Neocron has a POINT to exploration and doesn't lay everything out on a platter for you, you have to explore and master the game world if you want the best of everything.

It's possible to be anything from pure PvE to pure PvP to total pacifist, though skill points might not come easily for all paths all can be viable.

You aren't locked into a set build that defines what you MUST be. You have total freedom to pick your own path according to what you enjoy. Even if it's totally gimped you can try it. You could be a droner tank or a H-C spy or anything in between.

The only MMO ever made that mates vehicle combat to ground combat in a realistic way.

The BEST animations and sound design of any MMO. Sci/fi weapons FEEL sci/fi. You're loading hydrogen gas, charging capacitors, stabbing in quantum matter canisters. Not every gun loads like an M-16 unlike most other sci/fi games EVER made.

All rare weapons are "artifacts". It's not just a +5 sword of awesomeness, it's a unique weapon with its own backstory (well 90% of the time) and lore.

It's not "red versus blue" each faction has a complex web of allies, enemies and people they don't really care about. PvP is not a matter of "go get the green guy/go get the elf".

Air vehicles. Need I say more?

one of the best construction/tradeskill systems in any MMO ever. Not as fiddly and painful as Star Wars Galaxies, but not as over-simplified as most latest-gen MMOs.

Tradeskills are still a vital part of the game even at cap. It's not a matter of "use good crafted weapons until the lich king drops a +7 sword of asskicking and use that from then on." ((Okay sure WoC breaks this a bit but WoC is rare right now)).

Anyone else have any others?

We have a good core of GMs / Devs who actually talk to players when helping with tickets or problems, unlike most MMO's where each tech adviser or moderator is a walking-talking answering machine with mostly predefined questions and answers for certain problems. I like this about Neocron.

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Originally Posted by dWintermut3

The only MMO ever made that mates vehicle combat to ground combat in a realistic way.

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Agree with the rest (for the most part), but I'd reword this one to:

"The only MMO ever made that used to mate vehicle combat to ground combat in a realistic way."

PvPing with vehicles is no longer possible unfortunately *subtly nudges devs*. I'm not sure realistic is a good word to describe it either.

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Originally Posted by [K1]Luke

We have a good core of GMs / Devs who actually talk to players when helping with tickets or problems, unlike most MMO's where each tech adviser or moderator is a walking-talking answering machine with mostly predefined questions and answers for certain problems

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i must been playing a different game then,on follow up questions i get a straight "kthxbyebye" and they're gone

NC is the only game that gives a true sense of proficiency of what you do, trade skilling, combat, exploration, scavenging, driving, piloting.

there are few stuff that i would love to see implemented ingame such as on the fly modable waepons say like on crysis, mods for vehicule.

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Originally Posted by Ghostface_Speak

i must been playing a different game then,on follow up questions i get a straight "kthxbyebye" and they're gone

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There's like 3 of them doing this for the hundreds of people playing and you expect them to hang around and chat? Go on IRC for that shit.

Flib brings up another great point. IRC, devs that actually talk to players and GMs that actually are reachable directly without waiting 3 weeks for them to get around to your ticket in a support queue.

Before I start, I just want to preface a few points that you, as the reader, should keep in mind when reading my responses here. This will help you understand where my thinking process comes from and why I answer how I do.

I have learned over the years that this is the most pretentious thing a person online can say when discussing video games, but I feel it is important here. I am a game designer myself. I have my own experiences on how the development of a game can be.

I do not know any of the original developers of Neocron, nor do I know any of the developers who have shaped the game over the years, so my responses will just be my own ignorant opinions.

I also understand the game was developed in 1999-2002, so our experience with creating mmos then was limited and shallow. I get it.

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Originally Posted by dWintermut3

Neocron still doesn't hold your hand, you have to earn everything and you're expected to be able to read a manual and figure things out for yourself without a 90-part tutorial.

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When creating a game, you target an audience. Perhaps your audience requires hand holding, or perhaps your audience does not. In the end, the most successful games have ways of conveying the rules of the game to a player so he or she is able to enjoy the experience.

When Neocron first came out, there were no helpful in game emails telling players how to build their character, or telling them about death. Since then, some things have been added to the game "because" it seems the developers realized having a cliff-tall learning curve is "not" a good thing to keep new players in the game. MC5 was introduced to help new players, along the in game emails. Sure, there is a tutorial, but the tutorial is separate from the gaming experience, and has been incorporated into the game quite poorly.

So yes, the Neocron developers did NOT want a difficult game for new players to get lost in. They tried to make it more accessible to everyone. But the game had, and still has one fatal, obvious flaw that many of us know about, but due to the code, really no way of getting around; Tiny font.

It doesn't matter if you have helpful emails, or MC5, or a tutorial if the font is tiny.

I don't skip dialogue parts of the game because I am impatient. I skip all the dialogue because it has always hurt my eyes to try and read the tiny font at the bottom of the screen.

Anyway, I am off track here... My point is that a steep learning curve is fine if your target audience is the Mensa Convention, but Neocron has always suffered from not teaching new players how things work in the correct manner.

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Neocron has a POINT to exploration and doesn't lay everything out on a platter for you, you have to explore and master the game world if you want the best of everything.

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The issue I have is that the game suffers from a development issue present in most games... The first few areas/hours of a game took months and years to make, but the rest of the game was shat out to meet a deadline, or to evade boredom by the world designers.

Neocron City is fun, deep and environmental. Very stunning for a sci fi setting. But the second you step out into the Outzones, into the Wastelands, the design of the game falls apart. Mobs make no sense where they are placed. Leveling areas are scattered about without any progression consequences.

Everyone "loves" exploring the various areas of the game. The game world is huge. But so what? Not one person here revisits dead areas devoid of meaningful content "just for the environment".

In the wasteland, you come across 10/10 mobs, then one zone away, BAM, 120/120 hoverbomber. Hoverbombers everywhere. Makes no sense.

You know the areas near Regant's Legacy that have camp sites filled with Hurlers and Mutants? Why are they there? Why aren't those spots "right" outside Neocron City? Or even in the Outzones? The entire world has a single area for leveling for mobs between rank 24 to rank 50ish... Military Base. Really? One area?

The world is beautiful, but it's content and design seems thrown together last minute to make a deadline, and even after 13 years of development, it has never been addressed... Actually... New mobs were created... Damn high rank security bots all around neocron that were never removed after the storyline ended.

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It's possible to be anything from pure PvE to pure PvP to total pacifist, though skill points might not come easily for all paths all can be viable.

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You can be anything, sure, but if you want to tradeskill, you need to pve first. I don't fault Neocron for this, as this is pretty much how all mmos are done. I would like this to change to be more like Guidl Wars 2, where you can craft to max level if you choose, but I don't expect this change to hit NC ever.

If you want to Researcher, pull out those Drones first.

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You aren't locked into a set build that defines what you MUST be. You have total freedom to pick your own path according to what you enjoy. Even if it's totally gimped you can try it. You could be a droner tank or a H-C spy or anything in between.

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I agree with you here.

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The only MMO ever made that mates vehicle combat to ground combat in a realistic way.

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I have no opinion on this.

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The BEST animations and sound design of any MMO. Sci/fi weapons FEEL sci/fi. You're loading hydrogen gas, charging capacitors, stabbing in quantum matter canisters. Not every gun loads like an M-16 unlike most other sci/fi games EVER made.

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I agree with you here! Neocron's sound development was top notch!

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All rare weapons are "artifacts". It's not just a +5 sword of awesomeness, it's a unique weapon with its own backstory (well 90% of the time) and lore.

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Each Artifact weapon having a backstory is amazing!

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It's not "red versus blue" each faction has a complex web of allies, enemies and people they don't really care about. PvP is not a matter of "go get the green guy/go get the elf".

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Ugh.....

Neocron "did" try to emulate WoW by making the game Red versus Blue. Thank god most of that has been fixed... Although it does suck that TG and FA runners start in Neocron, and that many missions still assume you are in DOY....

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Air vehicles. Need I say more?

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No you don't! They are pretty much the best things ever!

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one of the best construction/tradeskill systems in any MMO ever. Not as fiddly and painful as Star Wars Galaxies, but not as over-simplified as most latest-gen MMOs.

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This is probably the aspect of the game I like most. The way trade skilling works involves all players, and creates trust between players.

Having a system where you give another player/stranger your "+5 sword of 500 hours of farming" to repair is something you will NEVER see in a modern mmo.

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Tradeskills are still a vital part of the game even at cap. It's not a matter of "use good crafted weapons until the lich king drops a +7 sword of asskicking and use that from then on." ((Okay sure WoC breaks this a bit but WoC is rare right now)).

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WoC pretty much destroyed this. WoC just needs to be either rewoc'ed or just removed completely. I play the game to collect parts for rare weapons, not to do a quest in my sleep for an artifact gun.

The overcapping exp was just an old idea to keep players playing and paying longer than normal, but it was a poorly implemented treadmill mechanic shoe horned into a game that never asked for it.

Despite all my negativity, Neocron was created with such creativity and love, that is shows, and it is that passion put into the game that has me hooked.

You make a lot of great points Forget my Name.

I guess a better way to state my point about hand-holding is that Neocron has far more of a "sandbox" feel to it like the classic MMOs of old. It doesn't lead you by the nose from one quest area to the next and you can "sequence break" if you're good enough or have friends or use good tactics.

Forget my name I agree you make a lot of good points. I will make only one point. You are a dev, and you play neocron.

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Originally Posted by dWintermut3

You make a lot of great points Forget my Name.

I guess a better way to state my point about hand-holding is that Neocron has far more of a "sandbox" feel to it like the classic MMOs of old. It doesn't lead you by the nose from one quest area to the next and you can "sequence break" if you're good enough or have friends or use good tactics.

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Ah, I am sorry that I misunderstood your point. I thought you meant what a new player faces at the start of the game.

I do agree with you that yes, Neocron has that "What do I do next?" feel about it form the very start. I believe that this is a positive aspect of the game.

My only issue, once again, is the tiny font when NPC's speak. I know that the original developers had the idea that it would be more immersive if they showed both the player and NPC conversing naturally with the camera moving around and the avatars moving their hands. I like that a lot about the game but unfortunately the entire written dialogue system at the bottom of teh screen when two people are talking was done very, very poorly.

I just click fast through the mess just to get the talking over, which is a shame because I know for a fact that much of the epic quest storylines are beautifully scripted and written... They are just an eye sore to read.

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Originally Posted by Crodus

Forget my name I agree you make a lot of good points. I will make only one point. You are a dev, and you play neocron.

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I am not sure what your point is, but I love Neocron because for me, it is a Shadowrun MMO, and I love cyber punk... Oddly enough, I worked on a Shadowrun MMO for years until it recently got shut down. I really, really love cyber punk!

Shadowrun for the win! SR3 is actually the system I'm using to build my tabletop Neocron conversion.

And I agree about the font size, though I play on a very large monitor and in windowed mode so most of the text is legible to me. Playing during early NC1 was pretty painful, I actually got graphics lag in a launcher pit with all the explosions rocking.

Also, the english localization still has some odd dialog text that at time mars comprehension, but it's a comparatively minor factor.

To me the biggest thing is that it's a sandbox that reminds me of classic MMOs like Ultima Online, as opposed to the modern 6th-gen MMOs that are aimed at a market segment that I am most definitely not in.

I'm not saying it's wrong for those other MMOs to be what they are, very simplified, on-rails and aimed at instant gratification and a younger player base.

But you get what you aim for, and that younger playerbase tends to be immature, constantly ask for difficulty nerfs, expect on-rails sequence gameplay, etc.

I will always love Neocron because it's a thinking man's MMO and is SO immersive. I like having to ride by bike down to regents rather than click a "join PvE queue" button and get thrown with 6 random people to do a scripted dungeon run.

Sorry i didnt read your whole post Forget my name.

But there is one point i would like to make regarding:
"Anyway, I am off track here... My point is that a steep learning curve is fine if your target audience is the Mensa Convention, but Neocron has always suffered from not teaching new players how things work in the correct manner."

Back in beta it seemed like this game was made for young adults or adults in general.
(Proof is the strippers that used to actually be naked until the publishers got thier grubby mitts on the game, the drug use, the almost active promotion of swearing and other "non child like" activities.)

This is the same audience that has played games thier whole lives, most never having read a manual.
I wouldnt say people have to be above average intelligence to get the game, i have never met anyone who has ever needed to read a manual to work out a game, even one as complex as NC.
I think all of this "make the game easier, give people a walkthrough and hold thier hand" is all the publishers doing.

[quoute]The entire world has a single area for leveling for mobs between rank 24 to rank 50ish... Military Base. Really? One area?[/quote]
i have to disgree there. even before titan was released, i knew about 4 different spots that cater to exactly that level range, some more group oriented, others for a single runner, maybe two. thanks to the massive numbers of players camping MB and the other, better known spot in i06, i went out and had a look around, and tadaaa, up comes a couple more spots where you can easily level in that range...

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In the wasteland, you come across 10/10 mobs, then one zone away, BAM, 120/120 hoverbomber. Hoverbombers everywhere. Makes no sense.

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in a gamedesign-way, of course. but i got to admit, personally i love the fact that most sectors are so varied mobwise - you gotta be extremely careful. yes, this can be frustrating (do the courier-missions to the desert still exist ? i swear, i tried them about a couple dozen times back when i started, got killed by firemobs, tried again, i'm pretty sure i got a couple con-levels. and fuck, was i scared of firemobs at that time...), but it gives the world a more... natural feel ?

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Originally Posted by yavimaya

Back in beta it seemed like this game was made for young adults or adults in general.

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Intelligence and age are two different things. This game is catered to an adult audience, but so is every other pay to play mmo out there. Just because this game has strippers doesn't mean that it is more adult than WoW or SWG.

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I think all of this "make the game easier, give people a walkthrough and hold thier hand" is all the publishers doing.

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Also, hand holding does not equal lazy or insulting game design. The amount of new players who come in game and ask the most basic aspects of the game just irks me.

How does aiming work? How does armor work? How do resistances work? Oh, repair is actually DOUBLE the skill level? How does Construction work? Why do I keep breaking stuff while Researching? Why isn't my "insert stat here" leveling? Does my tool TL make my skill any better? How do I quick Direct someone? Does this game have an auto-run key? Any random question about my LE chip?

I can go on forever. Fact is, new players should have a better platform to be taught these aspects through intuitive gameplay instead of lazy auto-emails (that have out of date information by the way).

I actually agree with you Forget My Name. It's never good when you HAVE to go to a third-party wiki to be able to play.

I've always said "neocron is very user-friendly, it's just picky about its friends"

But that depth of complexity ALSO gives a lot to the more analytical type of player (the "spade" in the suit-based MMO player type classification system).

They just need to give better information in-game.

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Originally Posted by Forget My Name

Not one person here revisits dead areas devoid of meaningful content "just for the environment". ... The entire world has a single area for leveling for mobs between rank 24 to rank 50ish... Military Base. Really? One area?

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we seem to be really different here. in fact i did go to all places in NC, just for the sake of it: for having been there at least once. thus i found dozens of levelling areas for midrange chars, some even within neocron city walls. in general - one of the things that excited me most about NC, right from the start (in my case late 2002), was its inconsistency: Some guns have 120 % quality (not 100), while build cap is 99%. Same with lots and lots of aspects of this game, which gives it more character and uniqueness than any other mmo. its a world of its own, and in order to manage it, you need to learn patiently. neocron is a challenge. thats why i'm here.

There is another mmo that I think is more of the "old-school" type mmo. Very reminiscent of the good ol UO days. It's called Darkfall, its a fps style of combat and its a full loot mmo, and the only one of if its kind out. Speaking of which there is going to be Darkfall Unholy Wars (DF 2.0) which will be released next month. Neocron used to be the very same way with some of the looting in beta (which I thought was more fun than it is now). Darkfall / Neocron / Shadowbane will always be my favorite mmo. And im so happy that I can still play Neocron!