Dear KK (Kirk); please, please do something.

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Originally Posted by CoreInsanity

I think the best course for NC, unless Kirk says something pretty interesting regarding NC and their plans, is to have the community work on it.

This would, of course, give us the ability to run our own servers however. While I think this is a good thing, it does pose the problem of splitting the community. However, I have a feeling neocron.org or the techhaven network would pool the developers and become a more central server. Where as people like me would run one for fun, for myself and a few friends to mess around with the code. I would also play on that other server, though.

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I think the problem you mention is far worse than you expect. I personally would expect that the community would totally break apart if you make NC open source, because everyone has his or her own opinion how this game should be and therefore an equal amount of servers will be set up. That's most probably one of the reasons, why KK hasn't made NC open source. Therefore i don't like the idea of NC being open source. For a game and also other projects it is most often a good think if they are not developed in a democratic way where everyone's opinion is equally worth. It is much better if everyone may discuss things, but only a few people decide, especiall if it comes down to a huge project like MMORPG.

But maybe it is possible to find some devs with good references in the community who will sign a contract with KK to work on NC without being paid. What NC definitely does not need is developers who just started to learn/mess around with C++. That's another point why i don't like the open source idea. Maybe Kirk will tell us what he things about it :)

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Originally Posted by Mr_Snow

There's more to a GUI than how it looks. Regardless of looks(and neocron 1 had a prettier and slightly more usable HUD), the actual user interface in Neocron is terrible and a real pain in the arse to use.

It wasn't great 9 years ago (but it was acceptable), it definitely isn't acceptable anymore.

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I respectfully disagree, from an interaction design point of view, the interface (I'm not talking about the cluttered menu, that's bad, I'm talking about the HUD), is actually pretty good for a game this complex. The map and compass allows navigation, the quickbelt allows for mapping of actions to functionality, the healthbar (when used with colours) is clear and absolute, the chat and local area is in the only spot a social game like this could have it. The only thing is that the minimap bugs away half the time, health doesnt always update fast enough, and the rest of the menus are waaaaay too cluttered. (by the menu I mean the whole clutter that pops up when u press tab, I agree that that is indeed a horrible GUI).

if you are a gui designer, feel free to counter this with more indepth terminology and descriptors, I would love to actually discuss this :)

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Originally Posted by Brammers

I'm not sure how neocron.org is run, I'll let MrTrip speak for himself.

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I have known MrTrip since beta 4 of NC1. Knowing him and how much he loves NC I'm fairly sure he would want to (and could) run a server if it became possible for him to do so.

Of course, that's completely up to him.

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Originally Posted by Brammers

Got to ask, how would the techhaven network pool the developers and become a more central server? I'm not quite following what you are trying to say here. (Also out of the THN admin team, I'll point out there are only 2-3 devs)

Also until I know what direction KK is going to do with Neocron, I can't say what direction the THN is going to take. I've got quite a few plans which have been sitting on the shelf for the last few years as KK haven't been able to tell us (as in the community) what they are going to do with Neocron.

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I was merely suggesting that being an organized group like THN is, and being really the only third party "group"/resource for neocron, it would be plausible that with open sourcing NC would come THN having an interest in doing something with the source.

It's like if you had a fansite for a game that wasn't moddable, and then the company releases an editor of some kind making it moddable. There is a good chance that fansite would expand to accommodate mods and modding tutorials, if they had the resources to do so.

I would guess if NC was open source, and you started hosting documentation on the code or hosting a test server to fix it, developers would probably go there in the interest of working with a group and fixing it quicker. It wouldn't make sense for every developer here that has an interest in fixing NC to go off and try to do it by themselves.

My main point was mostly that if the server went open source, some one would probably create a group that was dedicated to fixing it so they could pool the man power and knowledge of the developers in the community. THN came to mind because you are (like I said) one of the only (if not the only, now) resource / group for NC. You're like the wowhead+wowwiki of neocron.


Edit: Just saw there was a page 9 now.

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Originally Posted by r2d22k

I think the problem you mention is far worse than you expect. I personally would expect that the community would totally break apart if you make NC open source, because everyone has his or her own opinion how this game should be and therefore an equal amount of servers will be set up. That's most probably one of the reasons, why KK hasn't made NC open source. Therefore i don't like the idea of NC being open source. For a game and also other projects it is most often a good think if they are not developed in a democratic way where everyone's opinion is equally worth. It is much better if everyone may discuss things, but only a few people decide, especiall if it comes down to a huge project like MMORPG.

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This is a good point I had not considered. However, when you look at it who's idea are we supposed to base game balance off of?

People disagree with KK and other people who suggest stuff. That problem already exists, and is partially why neocron is the way it is today. The only way that will get fixed is for KK to (for the most part) ignore what the community thinks balance should be and, though lots of testing and trial, change the game to be balanced the way they want.

The problem I see happening is developers split off from the main group and start working on it themselves. This would leave the main group short on manpower.

It's true it might get worse if NC becomes open source, but I would rather see some people fighting over game balance in open source rather than the game completely gone.

Besides, it's not hard for some one to modify the balance in the game. It's not so complex to modify that. The complex part of what the developers are going to be doing is fixing the actual core architecture of the code. Not the game item balance.


But, it's like I said. I only *really* want neocron open source if the only other option is shutting it down or leaving it exactly like it is and not fixing/developing it, and not making an NC3. It might as well be dead if it's just going to sit like this until they finally shut it down, it's just a really slow death.

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Originally Posted by r2d22k

But maybe it is possible to find some devs with good references in the community who will sign a contract with KK to work on NC without being paid. What NC definitely does not need is developers who just started to learn/mess around with C++. That's another point why i don't like the open source idea. Maybe Kirk will tell us what he things about it :)

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There is nothing wrong with people learning C++ or whatever language this is written in using the source. Of course, you wouldn't want to accept commits/patches from anyone who hasn't proven a competent and experienced coder.

My comment was that I would probably just run a server locally, or locally + a few friends of mine for me personally to learn C++ with it. I would never expect to be able to commit my changes to any centralized repository, like something KK or whoever organizes it would setup, until I have become very experienced with the language and the source itself. At that, if no one controlled how patches/commits were applied it would be a very bad thing. I would guess they would go through some kind of review process by the community who setup the repository and test server. That's how private server developers handle it for the most part and aside from random emo crap that they tend to pull sometimes, it works quite well.

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Originally Posted by MrTrip

We care, we all care, and we are all waiting and watching. The best way to count the days since a response was a counter, and the best way to show we aren't forgetting and haven't forgotten was a counter. Neocron is VERY important to us and we don't want to let it go. Think of it like the first girl we ever had sex with, we don't want to let this girl go, yeah, she has been around the block a few times now, and has a few weird things that don't wash off easily, but a shot of penicillin and we can all be okay again, we just want to know when that shot is coming Kirk :)

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I think I might.. *HURL*

Neocron.org would be all for becoming a central development site for Neocron and accepting code changes by the community for review to be included in a main server.

I have the resources to host an American Neocron server, be it NC1 or 2.2, I also have the manpower to staff the server with GMs, respond quickly to in game support tickets, and resolve any issues server side should one happen to go down.

We are just waiting for an okay and a server base to work with *thumbs up*

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Originally Posted by MrTrip

Neocron.org would be all for becoming a central development site for Neocron and accepting code changes by the community for review to be included in a main server.

I have the resources to host an American Neocron server, be it NC1 or 2.2, I also have the manpower to staff the server with GMs, respond quickly to in game support tickets, and resolve any issues server side should one happen to go down.

We are just waiting for an okay and a server base to work with *thumbs up*

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Impressive stuff! I'd be all for helping out too, as would many around these forums I'm sure. Hey I can't code for shit but being able to do "something" would be good.

I have to get serious now. This thread was started by LOKI with the aim to get a word from Kirk onto the future of Neocron 2 plus showing up some issues that could be worked around without too much hastles.

On page 6, Kirk gave his first reply after a long time, saying he'll check through the thread and give a statement afterward.

After that, people came from everywhere and start making wild claims and demands and what not all else could/should/must change...


1.) We are talking about an MMORPG game created 2002/2007 by Reakktor Media. KK had dedicated programmers, graphic artists and people whose daily job was to make or improve software. Their combined efforts made Neocron possible which was the first MMOFPS and also the first MMORPG/FPS ever.

2.) Your talks about make it F2P or open source is BS/CRAP/HORSEDUNG. There are enough F2P games on the market, why don't you play these and rather paid money for Neocron before? I bet I already know the answer. Furthermore, I've seen dozens of threads that people wrote "Hey, we make an MMO ourself" which in the end turned out to be nothing but hot air. I know nobody who'd invest all of their time into something that they don't get any benefit from - and that is for a programmer. Most other people like you and me who go to work and back every weekday to earn their cash will have even less time and energy (not mentioning skills) to invest for get nothing for it.

3.) The graphics are not nice and the effects are blah. Well my friends, there are games with better graphics out there - i said it several times before. Then go and play those games, but then you also get the sh*t from these games as pointless/suck PVP, snore combat, imbalanced weapon and classes, suck crafting, no housing. If that's what you want, go for it. Here is your F2P MMORPG/FPS

4.) Some peeps like this, some peeps like that and some know already since years that everything sucks. Well, for the first 2 groups, you should take an example on the Black Prophecy Community. BP is the current F2P Space Opera game by Reakktor which received some harsh criticism before. Nevertheless, people from the community combined their efforts and wrote an open letter to KK, which finally lead to an rather positive result, namely the next addon with complex changes to a better gameplay experiences. For Neocron it would be helpfull if you can focus on the game itself and what is reasonable. Give that as a clear feedback to KK and that's something they can work on.

For the third "everything sucks" group, take a look in the mirror :lol:

You do make a good point Kamuix99 (if a little ranty :p) but in all honesty, what is there to lose by just discussing possibilities amongst ourselves until Kirk does reply?

The more feedback / information and suggestions Kirk gets the more in depth he would be able to make a reply. If the whole F2P or Open Source ideas are not in his thinking then he'll simply say so, no harm done at all.

Yesterday some Neocron MP3s fell into my random queue and I started remembering the great time I had in Neocron. And now I am baffled that there is still so much activity going on in its forum.

Just wanted to say that I used to love NC and that I think it would be a delight to see it buzzing again. No other game has left so many good memories.

Btw. can anyone point me to a source about the general status of NC and KK, if there is one?

Alright I'm going to assume at least some (if not all) of this is aimed at me, so here we go.

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Originally Posted by Kamuix99

I have to get serious now. This thread was started by LOKI with the aim to get a word from Kirk onto the future of Neocron 2 plus showing up some issues that could be worked around without too much hastles.

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You were not serious before?

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Originally Posted by Kamuix99

On page 6, Kirk gave his first reply after a long time, saying he'll check through the thread and give a statement afterward.

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Which I still look forward to hearing.

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Originally Posted by Kamuix99

After that, people came from everywhere and start making wild claims and demands and what not all else could/should/must change...

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Nothing I have said has been a "wild claim". It's all based off of evidence I have seen and logic.

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Originally Posted by Kamuix99

1.) We are talking about an MMORPG game created 2002/2007 by Reakktor Media. KK had dedicated programmers, graphic artists and people whose daily job was to make or improve software. Their combined efforts made Neocron possible which was the first MMOFPS and also the first MMORPG/FPS ever.

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Yes, and they did a great job back then. Those developers are gone, if I recall. The people who worked on NC2 aren't the same, afaik. I believe Codi left a long time ago (I don't remember why).

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Originally Posted by Kamuix99

2.) Your talks about make it F2P or open source is BS/CRAP/HORSEDUNG. There are enough F2P games on the market, why don't you play these and rather paid money for Neocron before? I bet I already know the answer. Furthermore, I've seen dozens of threads that people wrote "Hey, we make an MMO ourself" which in the end turned out to be nothing but hot air. I know nobody who'd invest all of their time into something that they don't get any benefit from - and that is for a programmer. Most other people like you and me who go to work and back every weekday to earn their cash will have even less time and energy (not mentioning skills) to invest for get nothing for it.

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Please, do tell what you bet you already know.

Also, there are pleanty of people out there who would gladly work on fixing NC. There are a lot of people who really love the game and have the skills to fix it in their spare time. Sure, not everyone would, but some would. And some is more than what KK has done in the past few years.

But, as I have said in previous posts (Which quite frankly I'm guessing you didn't even bother reading fully): You are missing the point.

I am not saying I want neocron open sourced at all costs. I am saying that I want it open sourced if KK are going to kill it off and shut down the game. If they aren't going to make an NC3 and aren't going to continue developing NC2 or NC in any way then it would be nice if the community had a chance to keep it alive. They take no loss that I am aware of releasing the source if they have no plans to do anything with the game anyway. If the game dies, it's gone. That's it, no more NC. No money coming into them from it, etc. If they release it to us at that point, at least we can TRY to fix it.

I don't know where you keep coming up with this crap like I want a F2P opensource game, as if I want neocron to turn into some garbage with a bunch of pay to win crap in it. I want neocron to survive. Either by KK (preferably), or by the community if KK doesn't care anymore/can't make money off it/whatever and are going to shut it down..

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Originally Posted by Kamuix99

3.) The graphics are not nice and the effects are blah. Well my friends, there are games with better graphics out there - i said it several times before. Then go and play those games, but then you also get the sh*t from these games as pointless/suck PVP, snore combat, imbalanced weapon and classes, suck crafting, no housing. If that's what you want, go for it. Here is your F2P MMORPG/FPS

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Again, you're missing my point.

THE GRAPHICS ATTRACT NEW CUSTOMERS. IT'S SOMETHING THEY SEE THAT DRAWS THEM TO THE GAME, THEN THE GAME PLAY GETS THEM PAYING. Why you can't seem to wrap your head around this marketing concept makes no sense to me. I could care less about the graphics, KK on the other hand has to. If all it took was gameplay to sell a game, then every game would look like crap so they could save the development time. The graphics don't need to be perfect, and they might even be able to do it without redoing the graphics.

Either way, my point is and has always been They need something to draw in customers from an advertisement. It can't be some complicated paragraph describing the gameplay, it needs to be a quick "at a glance" type of thing. That's what graphics are.

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Originally Posted by Kamuix99

4.) Some peeps like this, some peeps like that and some know already since years that everything sucks. Well, for the first 2 groups, you should take an example on the Black Prophecy Community. BP is the current F2P Space Opera game by Reakktor which received some harsh criticism before. Nevertheless, people from the community combined their efforts and wrote an open letter to KK, which finally lead to an rather positive result, namely the next addon with complex changes to a better gameplay experiences. For Neocron it would be helpfull if you can focus on the game itself and what is reasonable. Give that as a clear feedback to KK and that's something they can work on.

For the third "everything sucks" group, take a look in the mirror :lol:

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Good for BP. I am happy for them, they got KK to do something. But the thing is, BP is what KK are using to save the company. So yes they are going to do everything in their power to keep that game, and in tern the company, afloat.


I'm not trying to come off as ranting, but quite frankly you're replying to me as if I am some idiot who thinks the game should go open source at all costs, graphics are all that matters and I want a free run. And quite frankly that is completely wrong, and I'm sick of explaining it.

I have been playing this game since beta 4 of Neocron classic, I would be happy to continue paying for this over WoW any day - but only if they actively fix it. I could donate 50/m and it still wouldn't fix neocron. So could all of you, probably. I don't think you realise how much money it takes to make or fix an MMO as screwed up as neocron is. They can't sit down with a debugger and fix it in 5 minutes, you're probably talking months of testing and bug tracking especially given how they have to take care of BP. This costs money, and that's just to fix what they have.

I made my original questions two or three pages back. They are valid questions that aim to get an idea of how KK is doing financially and how good BP is doing for them, and what their plans are for neocron. These are important questions the answers of which have a huge impact on what happens to this game.


This is a discussion forum, I am discussing possibilities for the game, both KK controlled and not. I am not demanding anything, I am stating points.


Edit: Also, I can't give clear feedback on what is reasonable. I have no idea what state the company is in and what they could actually put to fixing it.

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Originally Posted by Elric

You do make a good point Kamuix99 (if a little ranty :p) but in all honesty, what is there to lose by just discussing possibilities amongst ourselves until Kirk does reply?

The more feedback / information and suggestions Kirk gets the more in depth he would be able to make a reply. If the whole F2P or Open Source ideas are not in his thinking then he'll simply say so, no harm done at all.

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Yup, i know it's a rant, but I had to let off some steam. As player also I made lots of suggestions in other Forums before. However, the experiences I've made were that only if there was a broad consens of the community on a certain subject, the Devs actually made a move - everything else were just opinion of single players.

Now, looking at NC2, we know that it's not in the Focus of KK and therefore one shouldn't expect wonders. The only consens so far was that people are dissatisfied with the game as it is now, from that point on opinions break into a lot of personal opinions and wild speculations or wishes.

Kirk and KK can't work wonders, they can't turn neocron into Battlefield 3, neither they can turn it into EVE Online. What they can do though, is do some corrections toward better accesability, greater stability and cheat protection.

With these corrections Neocron actually IS an valid MMORPGFPS for the current market. The game doesn't offer Graphic extravaganza, but rather a deep and detailed gameworld plus reasonable PVP, dynamic combat and crafting which younger and graphical more advanced games simply doesn't.

@Kamuix99: KK had to respond to the open letter due to Gamigo being involved in the Dev process mate! duh!

I don't care if the graphics sucks i do care about gameplay and ingame content! i still do play id tech 3 games even if looks bad but they are unique games (RtCW, ET:W, JK: JO, JK:JA, SoF series)

Go play on your fancy shitty console if you love good looking graphics more than gameplay, storyline, game content and whatnot!

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Originally Posted by Kamuix99

Yup, i know it's a rant, but I had to let off some steam. As player also I made lots of suggestions in other Forums before. However, the experiences I've made were that only if there was a broad consens of the community on a certain subject, the Devs actually made a move - everything else were just opinion of single players.

Now, looking at NC2, we know that it's not in the Focus of KK and therefore one shouldn't expect wonders. The only consens so far was that people are dissatisfied with the game as it is now, from that point on opinions break into a lot of personal opinions and wild speculations or wishes.

Kirk and KK can't work wonders, they can't turn neocron into Battlefield 3, neither they can turn it into EVE Online. What they can do though, is do some corrections toward better accesability, greater stability and cheat protection.

With these corrections Neocron actually IS an valid MMORPGFPS for the current market. The game doesn't offer Graphic extravaganza, but rather a deep and detailed gameworld plus reasonable PVP, dynamic combat and crafting which younger and graphical more advanced games simply doesn't.

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Tell you what; You make an advertisement that sells this game and gets, at a glance, some one interested in the game. That's my point. Nothing more, nothing less.

Graphics are eye catching. Most people aren't just going to read a bunch of text on an advertisement. If the advertisement catches their eye, they will.

I am saying they need a way to sell the game, and graphics is one of the most popular ways to catch peoples attention and draw them in.

I am not saying redo the graphics, I am just saying I don't know how they are going to market the game with bad graphics. I also said that is something I would love for Kirk to answer in my first post I believe.


Edit: I would also like to point out that since they haven't told us their financial state, plans for neocron and in general what they can actually do then we can't do anything aside from:

1) Tell them to fix the cheats
2) Tell them to fix the bugs
3) Speculate on different ways the game can survive.

CoreInsanity>

What you keep repeating is they need advertisal, they need marketing, they need etc. etc. to attract new people. This discussion is first about getting an update on the further developement of Neocron in hope for maintenance and repairs to get the cart from the dirt and things working.

Despite that, I see lot of people returning to NC lately, also several newcomers. The greatest obstacle for new customers now is that only C2P is available for subscription which causes massive troubles to potential customers in the US and were also part of LOKIs opening.

One element thats already in effect for Neocron is mouth propaganda. People returning to the game, coz they heard from their friends or mates on TS or wherever else that there's movement on the NC horizone. Newcomers who get in here are not impressed by graphics but rather by their own apartment, fast paced combat, FFA pvp zones and crafting system with slots and expansions.

You won't see KK starting an media campaign for NC as their funds are limited. Their current game Black Prophecy is advertised by Gamigo. In these days, there are many games you haven't heard from in TV, magazines or game shops. You disvover them by browsing the net, and you get a feel for the game not by looking at screenshots but by using a 14 days trial.


With regards to your open source and community project, if KK decides to jump the NC boat. Nice thoughts, but at first they won't be of interest for KK if they realy decide to dump it and at second there have been similar projects for other games (i.e. Tabula Rasa) that didn't got too far. For interacting with KK on a still alive NC it doesn't play a role.


Last but not least, what is reasonable? Reasonable are goals that can be achieved within the limits of the game engine on one side, and the limits of Reakktor as company on the other side. Creating new Payment options ain't not a problem, installing cheat protection takes time but seems practical, bugtracking and fixing also takes some while (as you said yourself) but still is realistic and possible if KK wants to. Anything beyond that point is merely uncertain.

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Originally Posted by Kamuix99

CoreInsanity>

What you keep repeating is they need advertisal, they need marketing, they need etc. etc. to attract new people. This discussion is first about getting an update on the further developement of Neocron in hope for maintenance and repairs to get the cart from the dirt and things working.

Despite that, I see lot of people returning to NC lately, also several newcomers. The greatest obstacle for new customers now is that only C2P is available for subscription which causes massive troubles to potential customers in the US and were also part of LOKIs opening.

One element thats already in effect for Neocron is mouth propaganda. People returning to the game, coz they heard from their friends or mates on TS or wherever else that there's movement on the NC horizone. Newcomers who get in here are not impressed by graphics but rather by their own apartment, fast paced combat, FFA pvp zones and crafting system with slots and expansions.

You won't see KK starting an media campaign for NC as their funds are limited. Their current game Black Prophecy is advertised by Gamigo. In these days, there are many games you haven't heard from in TV, magazines or game shops. You disvover them by browsing the net, and you get a feel for the game not by looking at screenshots but by using a 14 days trial.

With regards to your open source and community project, if KK decides to jump the NC boat. Nice thoughts, but at first they won't be of interest for KK if they realy decide to dump it and at second there have been similar projects for other games (i.e. Tabula Rasa) that didn't got too far. For interacting with KK on a still alive NC it doesn't play a role.


Last but not least, what is reasonable? Reasonable are goals that can be achieved within the limits of the game engine on one side, and the limits of Reakktor as company on the other side. Creating new Payment options ain't not a problem, installing cheat protection takes time but seems practical, bugtracking and fixing also takes some while (as you said yourself) but still is realistic and possible if KK wants to. Anything beyond that point is merely uncertain.

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All of this to some degree is kind of my original point.


KK is broke, as far as I can tell. The only real source of income they can count on is BP. Thus my original comment was, given that, I don't know how they will keep NC alive. What is reasonable indeed, we don't even know that they have the manpower or money to fix neocron at this point, hence why I want to know what the state of their company is and what the state of BP is along with the plans for neocron.

I'm not saying they need to start a marketing campaign, I am simply saying that if they want neocron to become a viable source of income they have to market it and do what they did with BP to a degree (Make it noticable, advertise, etc).

Sure, there are some people coming in. But without money going to development, those people won't stay. And we don't even know if they can afford the money to do even that. The number of people, even if paying, that are currently playing the game aren't enough to cover the cost of development. I am guessing right now the cost and risk is too high for them to fix the game, thus they haven't done it.

I don't think I have ever heard of a game get canceled that has gone open source. I'm fairly sure Tabula Rasa didn't. At best some one probably tried to make an emulator for it, which would fail due to lack of an active game and lack of people with enough experience to do it. Making an emulator is not easy, and is not what I'm suggesting. What I am suggesting is that if possible when or if KK decides to shut down NC for good, release the source code to the game and let us keep it alive.

As I have said, and MrTrip himself, neocron.org would be happy to be the development center for it. At least then the game doesn't die.

Honestly, I don't know that it will ever really happen. I would love to see that rather than the game die, but it is unlikely.

About the only thing there is to hang on to is the fact that the servers are still running, which means they are at least thinking about something. We just don't know what or how.


Edit: Also my main point with the advertising was that the game won't survive unless they get people in. Word of mouth won't be enough. Thus advertising, they need to think bigger than a few hundred fans. As the CEO of the company he needs to be thinking how he can make the game viable to make profit. He needs to think about a bigger picture than just fixing a few bugs and banning a few cheaters - provided he has the resources to do this.

I am going to guess what they are thinking (to some degree anyway) is: fix NC2 when they start to be able to develop NC3 (And maybe have something to show for 3). This could help get people back into NC2, advertise for NC3 and show that the company is progressing forward nicely. Kind of a "Hey look, we're back on our feet and serious about this" kind of a thing.