The Big Weapon Study [unfinished]

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Originally Posted by jini

Can you please show me how an xbow can do something like that? Who knows i am using a gun for 2 years andmaybe I dont know how to use it.

The players quit because there is no content updates for a year. Thats why they quit.

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only for you jini:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4SXKM4BM
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5GT1PA1N

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Originally Posted by nabbl

1.) patch the client back to evo2.1 status.
2.) delete Dmg boost, holy Para, tl10 jones heal.
3.) edit Weapons just like, Xbow, CS, SH, FL and so on to make them viable and balanced again.
-> nice game.

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wtf :wtf: I love my Jones heal :lol: an my belssed damge boost :lol:

XBow should rise up to dex 115 : i am sick to see xbow spys with 3-4 resi Implants in to get an con setup like an fullcaped Pe o_O because of that cheap 100 dex xbow

ok this would mean that an xbow only would be used by spys but only with dex imp in ( an not with overpusht resi imps)

yes it would nerv the Pc Pe but :

make the Burst stuff fixed und crease up like Judge or Liberator

well this shit megaupload says that all slots are full, and i need to d/l their spyware. I wont get it

works fine for me jini Oo

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Originally Posted by Mighty Max

Time paints memories pink ...

It wasn't that easy solveable as you would like to promote it here.

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it was exactly that easy to balance, problem was everyone wanted shiny new features and stuff and that ruined the whole balancing before it even began.
xbow is was one of the biggest imbalancies in game, just look how it affected con setups. the other one was the apu ppu team, but that's almost it. tanks needed a boost pes and spies were 99% balanced, the latter just whined all the time.

This reaction is exactly what i meant with memories getting painted pink.

You are
- forgetting a lot of things (dippled skillcurves, i.e. resis @114)
- ignoring them on purpose (they just "whined")

We have had the discussion on what was wrong at the time they were that way, have a look in the threads from back then to refresh your memories.

Not read the whole thread.

Way to little data and which weapon system was used? How much skilling?

I'm assuming that weapons of a single type was tested, Ie. uzi, raygun rifle or laser cannon.

This need to be completely redone using as many examples as possible, and present each main weapon system (pistols rifle, heavy, melee and APU) on separate graphs so each in dividual sub-type can be compared to the others.
Also I'd recommend not using skills set so that you reach 100% dmg as this is going to cause issues. A set skill amount will then give a better dmg/tl curve.
Of course this won't paint a true picture as people with a higher tl weapon will generally have higher sub-skill values.

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Originally Posted by Mighty Max

This reaction is exactly what i meant with memories getting painted pink.

You are
- forgetting a lot of things (dippled skillcurves, i.e. resis @114)
- ignoring them on purpose (they just "whined")

We have had the discussion on what was wrong at the time they were that way, have a look in the threads from back then to refresh your memories.

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i fail to see why a resicapp is balancing relevant at all, especially as not even the toughest class capped all resists. that just supports my point btw, as changing loads of unnecessary stuff is counterproductive for balancing.
about that whining, when i read that again it still is whining. problem is many players of that class just didn't like pes and wanted them out of the game or saw the pe as noob class before choosing ones 'real' class and thus their arguments were extremely biased against pes while having nothing to back up their claims but the xbow which is hardly a reason to nerf a whole class. sadly the devs don't play their game and listened to the ones that cried loudest which lead to the exploding numbers of players you now can find (if you're lucky) when logging in.

I wasn't refering to the cap ...
i was - and i named it - referring to dippled skill curves. When skills at lower value had more effect then at higher values.
Same happened to weapon skills, or const i.e.

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about that whining, when i read that again it still is whining. problem is many players just didn't like it

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Well i fail to see why your opnion (your likings/opinion) are more valueble then the likings/opinion of "many players". Other then to have an excuse to ignore them.

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Originally Posted by Mighty Max

I wasn't refering to the cap ...
i was - and i named it - referring to dippled skill curves. When skills at lower value had more effect then at higher values.
Same happened to weapon skills, or const i.e.

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i never experienced that with weapon skills, const has nothing to do with balancing and if you know that the best resist you can get is 114 you simply don't put more points into it and that value is high enough as to not be balancing relevant. only few bugs had any relevance to balance (eg the drugflash exploit), the others should simply be ignored in a balancing attempt and taken on later.

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Originally Posted by Mighty Max

Well i fail to see why your opnion (your likings/opinion) are more valueble then the likings/opinion of "many players". Other then to have an excuse to ignore them.

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the difference is that when i don't like sthing i simply don't play it whereas those people wanted to make a class they don't like unplayable, which they managed to a good extend. i had very interesting discussions on ts about this so i know that some ppls ultimate goal wasn't balancing but the exclusion of classes they felt didn't fit into the game from it. that is a huge difference from my personal affection to a class in that i don't want to force people to play the way i like. that's why 4 of the 6 changes i listed would affect the pe btw, though some are only targeted to specific incarnations.

/edit
oh and plz quote correctly or don't quote at all. your little change gave the whole sentence quite a different meaning.

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Originally Posted by yuuki

i never experienced that with weapon skills,

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Well there was, there were several points whe you could invest another point and receive less output, on the other side there were some points where the damage output increased massively by a single point.

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const has nothing to do with balancing

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While the inconsistency in the skill didn't, this statement is still wrong.
The construction part of Neocron game has an impact on balance. The higher base stats on rares vs non-rares boosts the effect of any existing imbalance in the distribution of rares between the classes.

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and if you know that the best resist you can get is 114 you simply don't put more points into it and that value is high enough as to not be balancing relevant. only few bugs had any relevance to balance (eg the drugflash exploit), the others should simply be ignored in a balancing attempt and taken on later.

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If it changes the skill distribution of whole classes, i would say that it is relevant.

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the difference is that when i don't like sthing i simply don't play it whereas those people wanted to make a class they don't like unplayable

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This were not all, rather a minority of those which wanted a nerf for some classes. I played and i am playing APU myself, and even i voted to nerf APUs. Not because i wanted the class i was playing to be unplayable. But for a better balance. I wouldn't call my vote as a whine for "my class is too strong"

You can't allways only balance by boosting.

It's like an instable table
If you are cutting the longer legs again and again, there probably isn't much substance left when they all reached the same length. Often it is much better to just put something (i.e. a rubber foot) under one of the legs.

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/edit
oh and plz quote correctly or don't quote at all. your little change gave the whole sentence quite a different meaning.

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Granted, my error. Typed the wrong word, after i missed the end of the sentance in the c&p.

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Originally Posted by MotorMike

wtf :wtf: I love my Jones heal :lol: an my belssed damge boost :lol:

XBow should rise up to dex 115 : i am sick to see xbow spys with 3-4 resi Implants in to get an con setup like an fullcaped Pe o_O because of that cheap 100 dex xbow

ok this would mean that an xbow only would be used by spys but only with dex imp in ( an not with overpusht resi imps)

yes it would nerv the Pc Pe but :

make the Burst stuff fixed und crease up like Judge or Liberator

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Like it ;)

Again, the game is fine as it is...
Minor problems are:
1. The pistols PE has no other choice than an xbow setup. this must be fixed, by boosting the libby. The libby deserves to go back to its first glory
2. There is a problem with nanites on a spy and thats that he cant essentially heal. Make a spy only psi heal as effective as the tl40 nanites heal is, or take nanites concentration out of nanite heal (a better approach), and the spy is balanced against other classes
3. Fix the dev stacks, they last way too long. And the WA stacks same...
4. On a recent duel with apus in NF, it seemed that the apu is not that easy to die, if played by a decent player. Recent tests in pp1 can confirm this as well. They are just not the overpowered units that once were, aka 105/min on a capped HL :p

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Originally Posted by jini

Again, the game is fine as it is...
Minor problems are:
1. The pistols PE has no other choice than an xbow setup. this must be fixed, by boosting the libby. The libby deserves to go back to its first glory
2. There is a problem with nanites on a spy and thats that he cant essentially heal. Make a spy only psi heal as effective as the tl40 nanites heal is, or take nanites concentration out of nanite heal (a better approach), and the spy is balanced against other classes
3. Fix the dev stacks, they last way too long. And the WA stacks same...
4. On a recent duel with apus in NF, it seemed that the apu is not that easy to die, if played by a decent player. Recent tests in pp1 can confirm this as well. They are just not the overpowered units that once were, aka 105/min on a capped HL :p

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yeah... if everything will get fixed, the game is fine and perfectly balanced! ^^
and pistol PE will be fine when the libby gets boosted!

well ok we wont see any slasher, judge or RolH PEs, but that doesnt matter, because libby, xbow and freeman are perfect.

Slasher is fine actually, did you ever tried it?
Rolh is almost out of reach from a PE w/o going into huge sacrifices.
Judge by own means, fix it... but
As long as they decide to boost WoC weapons everyone will go for the xbow.
If they dont boost WoC weapons, none will care spending time leveling, paying/finding the WoC disk, or using expensive WoC pas. Certainly, the game is not broken because the judge is useless right? Nor did the people left because the judge is a piece of s**t did they?
I also said that they need to fix only 3 things... it's not everything, it's -just- 3 things..

And I still can't use that megaload thingy, what is it you wanted to show to me?