That brings it pretty much back to what i said already.
You want ppl to remover their LE?
Get out and help them, let them feel the joys and thrills, the protection and the advantages of a cool clan, and they will remove it to become a part of it.
Simple enough to give it a try, and if it works, certainly more effective and faster than a LE System change wich might never come.
Fox. I love your ideas. thats all i can say. even in the face of this ridiculous opposition. keep it going.
Unrestricted access to end game content. A distinct advantage over any non le player. Grant mine for example is held by a clan to allow its members a better chance to farm techs with such a nice fire mob spawn. when an le guy shows up the clan takes a back seat. i have read alot of great suggestions like lvl caps with an le to stop use of mc5 chips and rare guns. i also do not support the le functioning in ceres labs, doy tunnels or mc5. Clan claimed outpost areas should be no le also.. i do think the le plays an important role and should remain. but it should be greatly limited in the scope it is allowed to harm the game as it stands.
Your one of the reasons this thread is moving in a cricle, as i havnt read anything constructive from you, only nearly fanatic opposition. And "needless", well thats your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by DR REED
I believe its necessary, it worked that way for most of neocrons time, and it did well, much better than the current "combination".Quote:
Originally Posted by DR REED
And neither is it forcing anyone to remove it, nor does it take away the choice of time to do so.
Not entirely true, it depends on a lot more factors that just that, alone by the fact that there are two groups of players means they have different views on whats a bonus and a malus. For example a pure PvE player, a person who enjoys leveling and grinding would view a permanent xp boost for himself as a malus, it cuts his playtime per character.Quote:
Originally Posted by DR REED
And based on that, let me turn around your argumentation: not getting a XP Boost is a malus for none LEs, as they get killed while leveling, or cant access a leveling spot due to hostile runners, just because they choose to play without an LE.
Back in NC1 and NC2 pre 2.1/2 this wasnt any issue as you did gain more XP without an LE, basically view it as a compensation for getting killed, but now it doesnt anymore.
So arent you basicaly forcing those players to keep their LE in, denying them the choice?
(And that dupe example, god was that a stupid example. Dupe is a bug exploit, no one should be able to do that.)
Basicaly a good idea, but i doubt that any clan would do that. I know regulators do some community services as helping newbies (i do too, be it even just flying them to MB, as im only one person), capturing and opening OPs near Leveling Spots such as Regants and CRP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atropos
Utter bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by DR REED
Well it wasn't always this way. About 6 years ago a lot of Epic Runs required runners to kill an enemy runner. Not an NPC, an actual PLAYER. This is a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by DR REED
Now since the mission was usually rank 40+ requirement, once you took your LE out you couldn't put it back. This, to me, was one of the many "impressive by it's design" features of the game. It was mature and unforgiving.
I got an idea right now, that will (i hope so) satisfy anyone:
Give non-LE user an XP Boost. But at the same time remove the restriction, that non-LE user can support LE user or remove the restriction of the closed GenReps to LE users.
We all agree that LE user can't participate in PvP so they can't support non-LE user.
We all agree that LE user can't hack an OP, so it's not necessary to close the GR for them.
Maybe most aspects are discussed now, but let me make short remark about your personal insult on me.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxDF
First - of course everything i am posting here is my "opinion. What else ?? It's not my intention to be polemic even it sounds sometimes this way. Hard to believe that one could be responsible if a thread is not leading to an simple result. Eventually the issue itself is to complex or not straightforward ?
And if a majority of opinions is forming here in this forum or it seems so, than it is not implicit the majority of players. Lot of players do not take part in the discussions here, do not read the forum at all. If you are discussing the issues ingame you often will find complete different statements. To repeat something again and again does not mean that it's true or that it is the persuasion of the majority.
btw, to become personal is a bad style always. If you are not able/willing to take my writings constructive, but posting "what you believe" is dubiuos, sorry.
Reed
Comment got made a bit back, but:Quote:
Originally Posted by Satan2k2
It is not a BIG disadvantage. It is a disadvantage though.
But speaking of disadvantages:
Non LEs lose more money:
- They might get killed and lose money
- They may have to tip the implanter and lose money
- Your Belt might get hacked and you lose an item, replacing it costs money
Non LEs make less money:
- If you get killed, the time till you are fixed up again, SI is gone and you are back at the place you don't make money
Non LEs make less XP
- If you get killed, the time till you are fixed up again, SI is gone and you are back at the place you don't make XP
Non LEs have less time
Some points that depend on time are already mentioned in the upper points (less XP and Money because of less time for leveling)
- If you get killed while exploring you just plain lose time. You have to go back, maybe fix up again, then you can explore that area again.
I'd say that are quite the disadvantages for Non LEs. And I am sure there are many people that would trade their fourth Brain Slot to not have them. (For example if they could just stand up again after being killed, with no implants falling out, no money being lost, ...)
I didnt say that you are the only one responsible.Quote:
Originally Posted by DR REED
But let me tell you why i dont take your writing as constuctive:
1: You first post in this thread was nothing more than the standard "DONT CHANGE THE LE!!!111one" post you can find in any LE related thread, great first impression.
2: Questions directed at you to explain your thesis further get ignored by you.
3: Counter thesises to your assumptions get ignored by you.
4: As soon as there is the slightest point available for a counter, oh a post by dr reed, no matter if it was already covered.
That makes it quiet hard to be able or willing to take your posts as constuctive contribution to the topic.
And on "most of the players arent here in the forums": im well aware of that, and i also talked alot about this ingame, in fact i even got encouraged to create this thread by a lot of people ingame, after talking with them about the current LE state.
Satan the idea of letting le'd players use grs without any worry is the worst one in this thread. If le'd players want to use a gr they should take out the le and fight for it.
The bold part has been said by me a million times. The other part could be tricky to code in. example if the person can cast a buff on the LE dude who says they cant cast a bullet on them too :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Satan2k2
Yeah, I know, but thats balancing :D
One get a disadvantage, the other one, too. One get a advantage, the other one, too.
But both get an advantage: non-LE user get more XP AND as LE user you can level with non-LE PPU together.
Now it would be not ok to stay off topic here, so i will keep it short.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxDF
I expected you to state that lot of players ingame encouraged you to start this thread. You do not have to proof it, nor could you ever. So every of your statements here stay opinions, not more.
From my point of view it's all but not constructive to ignore questions and repeat same arguments again and again. If this is true for me it's true for you also.
Reed
Actually he came on our vent server and four of the posters you have seen here discussed it with him at length, along with three more who do not post on the forums so yeah eight people discussed it for over an hour.
I think that that is proof enough.
Don't know if it's been brought up yet but the whole "We don't have that fourth brain slot" is not a real drawback to an LE player. That slot won't help you unless you pvp anyways so stop bringing that up. I've encountered LE'd tanks using the Creed(STR 114 is hard to get on a tank period but with an LE in, come on!) and hitting every mob they see, they don't care if you're out there trying to farm either because they have the mentality of "What are you gonna do to me? NOTHING. Oh AND I hit harder than you so go ahead and try to outdamage me".
Currently I'd say more LE players are out there grieving other players than non-LE players are allowed to. And believe it or not but every time that I have seen a non-LE low level runner, I never kill them because that's not a fight. I guarantee that I'm not the only one that thinks this way either. So you LE guys need to get a grip, sure ganking would happen if LE rules changed but more times than not if you talk to that person(not with a hate speech) after he ganks you he most likely will help you out. This game thrives on things like this and it makes the community come together in the end.
Also to every thread that suggests non-LE players to gain more exp. How is it that you LE supporters do not understand that when you take your LE out you are putting your items and characters life at risk every time you go out to hunt/farm. So why shouldn't there be a risk/reward system in place for non-LE players?
First of all, you're wrong about the 4th slot. An extra chip means more stats which means more damage which means faster XP. Ever try to level a PE to woc with drones? You most certainly need that 4th slot to use RK 1000's. Even constructors need the 4th slot for the extra construct they would get.
I have to disagree with you on your observation that more LE'd people are griefers than Non-LE'd people. Your particular sense of honor concerning ganking low level un'LE'd people unfortunately doesn't translate to the rest of the community as a whole. People will go out of their way to gank for no other reason but to kill someone, it's just inherent to the game as it stands today.
As an LE'd player you are already losing the 4th imp slot. You lose the ability to join and have the massive support of a clan. You lose the bonus clans get at their own out posts. You lose the ability to participate in the best feature of this game: PVP. You lose the ability to hack belts. And as of the next patch you will lose the ability to defend even your own vehicles and you must suffer the wrath of any un-LE'd guy who wants to shoot you without you being able to shoot him back.
There are already a big number of negatives attributed to keeping the LE in your head, I simply don't see the need to further penalize these LE'd people any further, especially because most of them don't want anything to do with PVP in the first place. You wouldn't get good fair fights, you would get easy ganks.
Are you really comparing -15 construct from not having a 4th brain imp and getting 340 xp per kill instead of 350xp to the many time consuming, cred consuming disadvantages of taking it out? (As seen by this good post http://forum.neocron-game.com/showth...=1#post2202720)
You can argue advantages all you please. The simple fact remains that LE's are able to acquire XP at a greater rate because they don't have to deal with getting killed by players. All that i'm asking for is the balance that worked for years, put back in to place.
Ever hear of the concept called Risk Versus Reward? IMO, a very important concept in game design, some games even being based on this simple principle. What risk do LE's have? Why should they be rewarded for having less?
Lets compare an le creed tank to no le creed tank. the le guy will out dps the pvp specced tank. No le will have less in hc and different resists so he is less resistant to a fire mob. the le tank also has completely unrestricted access to the mobs.
I also think it's true that most LE'd PVE tanks will overall cap weapons better and resist better, even with the 4th implant slot beig the LE.
The resist pierce being not as crucial as on PVP setup, most PVE setup tanks will have lot more HC specced than a PVP tank with 1 or 2 resistor chips with a fair amount of Resist Pierce specced.
Runspeed being a non-crucial issue again for LE'd PVE setups, you're most likely to find this setup uses PA3, whereas PVP non-LE'd will prefer to wear an Underwear Overall, as to not being penalized with speed malus. This also contributes to LE'd PVE setup making more DPS.
Lastly the inherant risk of being attacked by other runners also means most non-LE will choose to wear mix of Duranium/Inqui whereas an LE would wear all Inqui , making the LE PVE setup superior in both DPS and Damage Intake.
I think if you want to take part in high level PVE, you should have to do that without LE.
There is no point for LE'd players to go to MC5 and loot parts without being able to get disturbed.
I definitely agree about MC5. No LEs should be allowed there.Quote:
Originally Posted by nabbl
I fully agree with the mc5 comments.
I said this in another thread but I feel it's relevant here also :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
I would even take my LE out immediately, IF I ever had the chance to put it back in, like I had in former NC1 days. Maybe not in that abusive kind of manner (In, Out, In, Out...), but at least ANY chance. It's so final. There may be a time again (and there will be, I know myself) when I just want to play without even thinking about PvP, so I would want my LE back in. But there is no chance to do so. I would even pay for that option (as I would for a char transfer).
This. The dev team/community needs to decide if the developer intent of the LE chip was that it be used in perpetuity for the entirety of a characters life, and not only at the beginning. (I think all data implies the latter, personally, but clearly it is an undecided issue)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
I personally consider the LE a permanent feature in a runner's life. I'd also consider the LE a non-standard feature. Players are given the choice from the beginning and I personally consider this point to be where a player decides whether to keep it in or not, rather than at cap.
I have no issue with those who wish to remain LEed throughout their NC experience, but NC is a PvP game at heart and the benefits of removing the LE (across all levels) need to be promoted.
A question for Faid and his merry band of SXR. We all know your entire clan is sitting on vent together all with le characters. You are abusing the le in order to give yourselves an unfair advantage over any current clan. Do you think this is was the original intent of the le design? Your clan has the same goals as ours but with one difference...we are not taking advantage of the biggest exploit in neocron The law enforcer. Even worse is the fact that this chip allows your clan unrestricted and favorable access to areas that have nothing to do with the law of neocron city or the roleplay.
I know more clans do the same thing (FF for one) and there's nothing that we as players can do about it. One LE tank made it obvious that he was scouting me, basically standing on top of me everywhere I went. I kept thinking wtf is this guy doing, a couple minutes later I'm taking damage (don't see/hear anything which is a whole other problem with the game) and then I'm dead. Afterwards I see a particle nemesis drone flying away from my body, so I came back out there to look for that droner and what I saw was a bunch of other non-LE clanned FF players helping their LE'd clanmates. This is definitely an abuse of the LE, I don't see how anyone could argue about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arista Barret
Just gonna 5 star this post because the original post was full of good ideas. The Law Enforcer is constantly debated, that alone should be a sign to everyone it's a far-from-perfect system. Things need to change and hopefully the devs are taking notes.
This makes literally no sense. Myself and many others of SXR are UN-LE'd and in clan. Some of us chose to level chars with their LE in, in order to level up unobstructed by senseless gankers. I don't see how leveling with an LE gives anyone unrestricted and favorable access to areas? Are you all mad because you can't simply gank everyone who is trying to level in a specific area?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arista Barret
@Ghostly are you mad because we killed some RSC guy in el farid last night? I thought thats what you guys were all about, pvp even in leveling spots? This is once again getting stupid to even try to discuss on these forums.
It's gostly and I don't even know what you're referring to. Even if I did know, why would I be mad? I mean it wasn't me that died.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faid
ALSO just because I'm in RSC doesn't mean that what I say should be overlooked just because we like to pvp. After all we're not asking for the LE to be removed, but it's a broken game "feature" and should be addressed in various ways mentioned all throughout this thread.
So many people cap/overcap and keep their LE in with MC5 chips and rares that are only good in pvp. I think that's ridiculous and I get mad every time I see it. At some point these types of people should be forced to get rid of that security blanket.
I dont think it's a good idea to "force" anybody to do anything in this game. None of this even really matters anyway KK will do what KK wants to do regardless of what we have to say, it's always been this way. (yes i know technically they're not kk anymore)
I'm done with this thread.