ps. found this on youtube. it might be worth looking up all the nc videos on there and posting some links for the users. it would help spread the word. i tried to but couldnt. im not sure why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsyPu...eature=related
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ps. found this on youtube. it might be worth looking up all the nc videos on there and posting some links for the users. it would help spread the word. i tried to but couldnt. im not sure why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsyPu...eature=related
OT: Saw that vid in another thread, it's very good. I've only recently sorted out the THN's youTube channel after an account conflict with Google apps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday
What I was going to suggest is you create a playlist, and then I add your playlist to the THN's channel. However, it seems YouTube doesn't seem to have an option to do that. 8|
I tried putting my MotU videos up there the other day, decide not to bother after the first part of the final was only visible in Japan...
So for the time being, guess most of them will remain at my site
Trivaldi,
plz clear your PM Folder.
OK, everybody is going to have an opinion, but here's some things I think are worth considering for Neocron reloaded:
Vital:
- Give NCR true FPS combat - guns fire either hitscan or projectiles, that do damage on impacting targets. The weird hybrid system of NC might have been all that was practical in its time, but now there should be no reason not to do things properly. So many of the problems NC faced with PvP (many of which were blamed generically on "clipping" would never have occured with such a system, defensive strucutres would be more useful, and it would drastically improve PvE, both ending (or at least severly limiting) safespotting while making player positiong vs mobs much more important.
- Minimise instancing. I don't say no instancing at all, as appartments after all are just permenant instances. I also see the chance for procedural mission generation that uses instancing. However, if you want to recreate the feel and best parts of NC, then the real, continuous world is an important part of that. Being able to meet up with friends, ambush enemies, or just encounter new acquaintences anywhere in the world is what made it work.
Opinion
- Focus on Neocron - I'm guessing there's no easy way to import World Geometry over to Unity. Even if there is, fixing it up for the new engine will still be a big pile of work. What I'd suggest then is that rather than trying to recreate the entire world for first launch, is to just initally focus on the Neocron city. It's the most interesting part of the game, and huge chunks of it (most infamously Mainsewers, but also most of the Outzone and Via Rosso as well as things like the clubs in Pepper Park) went mostly unused. Make the city the real focus of the game. Make Mainsewers relevant and perhaps the link into higher level environments. Worried about the lack of OPs? Create player contenstible facitilites in an expanded Industrial Area. The wastelands can still be developed and implemented, that'd be great - but for starters, just the city would be enough.
- Know that some systems in Neocron are outright broken - Outposts for example. Player contesible territory is a fantastic part of the game. However, optimal play in terms of maximising territory for OPs involves always attacking and pretty much never defending, as if both teams are playing to win, then there is a huge bias towards the attackers. The rewards for owning so many of the OPs are downright useless as well. All these things can be fixed - but they're broken enough it's not worth starting from where we were. Hacknet is another one. Cyberspace is a core part of cyberpunk fiction. But Hacknet was a joke - gameplay just a very, very slimmed down version of Psi Combat, carried out on the same 5 narrow walkways over a not-quite-bottomless-enough chasm. Do it right or don't bother. What I'm drving at is don't waste time recreating in new, more stable code for NCR things which are conceptually broken.
- No click zones - or at least, as few as possble. Make it so that maps can easily have new walk across zonelines added - even better make the world continuous and zoneline free, however that would likley be difficult. Click zones are an obvious bodge, have a bunch of weird behaviours tied up in them, and attack one of Neocron's strongest aspects - it's sense of place.
Those are the straightfoward things. I could write at length about what I'd recommend doing (that shouldn't be too difficult to acheive, unlike the grand, almost new game scale of DJ's Big Fix) to make a new Neocron (condsidering that all code and a bunch of other thngs will have to be new for NCR) that fixes what was wrong and builds on what was right about NC, while still feeling like Neocron. It's worth pointing out that I could also write you a full design doc for the cyberpunk MMO that I would make - and it would be nothing like Neocron.
I have one request of many for NC:R.
Please go back to the old style names for implants.
Instead of
- Pistol Targeting Matrix V0.1
- Strengthen Heart V0.2
- Drone Distance Interface V1.3
How about
- Pistol Combat Eye 1
- BioTech Strengthen Heart 2
- Drone Distance Interface V1.3
This V0.1 or or V0.01 or V1.2 stuff is just a little too complicated IMHO and not very consistent.
I'd sort of assumed going back to the older implant system would come under the "taking the best parts of NC1 and NC2". An implant system that pretty much requires doing lots of out of game calculation is not a good implant system. In general, there is a huge amount of stuff that could be simplified in NC to make it more accessible to players, without losing the underlying depth of the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brammers
You referring to the decimal modifier values of say APU +2.64 instead of plain simple APU +3Quote:
Originally Posted by CMaster
Yes please get rid of those annoying numbers.
Simplified is most often a contradiction to depth, I would even go as far and neglect the few cases where it is not and say that it is always a contradiction. I always liked that, going through all the different possibilities and think about what might be the most feasible option for my playstyle. That was something which I really liked about NC. There were days I spent more time on fiddling around with my skill setup than actually playing NC and that was a hell lot of fun. Especially in the case that there is no perfect setup which suits all cases you always have to adapt and that's cool. In any other game there a just one or two possibilities two distribute your skills for pvp. No options to choose from and I am afraid that simplyfing the system would lead to exactly that. But I agree that integer numbers for implants would be great.Quote:
Originally Posted by CMaster
Agreed on everything :) good post CMaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by CMaster
How about this:
After NC City is done and polished and people start to get in the game, Make a Gene Replicator list for the areas that are most relevant to the working of system quests and class items, like WoC Lab, Regant's, Graves, etc. The way it could work is you teleport directly into the sector where the dungeon is which isn't still accessible by map (since you would still be constructing it), but available by Genrep.
That way people would still be able to level, get items, basically get busy and distracted while you end up doing the rest of the game.
Then, on a final stage remove the genreps on location and put them back where they used to be so people use their vehicles, explore, etc.
And i also agree with CMaster that some places are conceptually broken and should either be totally discarded or simplified - like Industrial Area, Sewers, etc.
Either way, i'm very happy to see this is a work in progress and that NC isn't forgotten, and best of it all, it's being remade :)
Integer vs Decimal implants is a great example of complexity/simplicity not being equal to depth. Decimal implants make thing much more complicated for the player, while not actually making the implant system allow for anything much more interesting. Hell, it possibly hurts the implant system, as there are so many combinations now that fall just short of thresholds. I've actually got a sneaking suspicion that we could do away with all negative effects on implants and still only improve the system, however you'd have to test to know the truth about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by r2d22k
Regardless, there are lots of examples in game design where there is not a straightfoward relationship between complexity and depth. However sometimes a bit of complexity is a fun thing.
I think Integer vs Decimal values is not a matter of complexity it is a matter of convenience. What I termed as complexity was the complexity of the decision making process the player has to go through. In case of decimal vs integer value and similiar discussions I aggree, there is no straightforward relationship between complexity and depth.Quote:
Originally Posted by CMaster
As for the implant system, I think it can be as complex with integer values as it is with decimal values, but it is most probably harder to achieve that complexity, that's for sure.
I was talking about complexity in a sense of decisions the player can make. A feat based system like in other MMOs is certainly not as complex as the NC skill based system. This is something NC shouldn't loose, its complex skill system. The complexity made pvp even more fun, because knowing the weaknesses of your enemy helped alot, but your enemy was also able to adapt and therefore you again have to adapt and learn about the weaknesses of your enemy and so on. (Due to balancing issues most people focussed on something, until that balancing issue was fixed and the next came up, balancing such a complex system is really a hard, nearly unachievable task)
However, a better tutorial/help system which introduces one to the possible choices one can make would be great. So new players are able to understand/grasp the complexity and the fun of NCs skill system.
See, again you are mixing up complexity and depth. The two are often, but not always related.
In a game design context:
Complexity refers to how intricate the system is, however many different variables there are to twiddle with. Depth is about how many different actual options the system presents, how much the player choice matters. Chess isn't an especially complex game, but it has a lot of depth from the way you can use those rule. Go, is less complex in that it has only one piece, however the number of decisions to make and the impact of those decisions is even greater. Go can (argubly) be an example of having less complexity, but more depth. This isn't to say however that complexity and depth are never linked. Chess and Draughts (or Checkers in the US) are similar games in many ways. However Chess is unarguably both the more complex game, and the deeper game.
There's plenty of writing out there on the subject - here's one place to start
oh wow, civilized and intelligent discussion, where did we drop down the rabbit hole? :D
I think you need to introduce the term confusing instead of complex to the discussion as well. the number of decimals doesn't really increase or decrease complexity, it's still an implant with only one value. It's just that decimals make the actual understanding of the complexity/depth more confusing, since it's not easy to read like integers are.
I also think that the basis for people to think the decimal is the problem, is because at the time when the decimal system was introduced, the whole balance of the implants was changed as well. A whole load of implants became obsolete not due to the number of decimals, but because they were "balanced" too much.
I think implant decimals are a bad design decision from a usability point of view, but I think they were introduced so that tweaking balance would be more continuous instead of in discrete steps. Of course because they never actually balanced the game after implementing the changes to allow for it, now we only have the disadvantages of the decimal system (confusion), while not profiting from the advantages (more sensitive tweaking of balance), even going so far as having the supposed advantage turn into a disadvantage because the first try at balancing made lots of implants obsolete.
edit: and r2d22k, get on steam :p I wanna show some stuff :p
Thanks :) You are right, I completely mixed up those two terms. Never thought about it much. I always used the term complexity for both, complexity and depth, but as you nicely explained they are two completely different terms :)Quote:
Originally Posted by CMaster
Hehe, that's true confusing is also one thing one should think about. At a first glance Neocrons skill system is quite confusing, especially for those who are used to todays games. One should somehow introduce people to it. But I think that is also a point on KKs to-do list, introducing new players in a more noob-friendly manner to the gameplay mechanis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biglines
As for your edit: getting on steam on a Linux machine is kinda hard ;) I am currently at university, looking out of the window and thinking about all the fun things one could do instead of working on a Ph.D. thesis, because the wheather is simply great!
I had posted in the german part about the implant problems as well.
90% of the implants are obsolete. You do not need them.
They surely have to adress it in NCR.
In my experience, just about anything is preferable to working on a PhD thesis, looking out the window being high up the list. Feels good when you finally get rid of the damn thing though.Quote:
Originally Posted by r2d22k
Zomg!!! At work but sure to catch up on this development when I get in tonight!
12 mths development?! Don't tease us kk :)
P,s. better be able to have a real npc shop to sell my wares in this!
so read ur email! :p Though I have updated it since then, currently implementing in the ide :pQuote:
Originally Posted by r2d22k
One of the things that I think NC:R and/or NC3 will need to have that neither NC1 or NC2 had are a few more of the standard MMO creature comforts, such as in-game mail delivery, auction houses and player shops. These are things that, while they wouldn't affect the core gameplay experience, they would make it more convenient to perform all the secondary tasks that have to happen in the background. I only have so much patience for muling items between characters after playing other MMOs.
One suggestion I disagree with is the integration of true FPS combat. Neocron's unique blend of twitch and stats based combat is really unique and incredibly well suited to the MMO genre. Whenever I discuss which MMO has the best combat with other people, I *always* point to Neocron because it worked so well, even if there were balance issues (Tank-ocron, Monk-ocron, PE-ocron... has Spy-ocron ever happened?).
By ingame mail delivery you mean sending items to your other alts without the need to risk dropping the items on the floor on an appartment so the alt can pick it up?Quote:
Originally Posted by NS_CHROME54
I think thats a nice idea, being able to box items and send them to an alt. It's quite convenient actually.
Auction houses are also convenient but prone to abuse by botting and price manipulations. Then again, it could work.
Player shops, well, depends how you implement them. Perhaps a good way would be to have a terminal list of sellers (paying a fee of credits to advertise) and then a subpage with tabs with items for sale divided by categories with buy now options and instant delivery. When player puts items on shop they are held from him until sold or the auction ends or the seller removes the item manually.
From a gameplay perspective maybe. But I think a huge amount of the enjoyment of playing neocron is the personal relations you build with the people you depend on for tradeskills. Logan, live wire, velvet constructor, wolvus, they were all awesome guys with whom it was a genuine pleasure to deal with. Implementing all these "convenience" systems, I fear we would lose this social interaction that makes living in this post apocalyptic world so damn awesome. If all you do all day is grind and shitty quests like in wow, yes you wanna just buy ur shit and move on. But that's what npc items are for, I want my gun to have been crafted by this awesome guy who I can see running around his appartment gathering materials, running down to a store to get some lube, and who has some guards to protect him from getting robbed by his customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaeon
Of course in the current game, the population is way too low to sustain this kind of mechanic, and npc shops and auction houses would make life a lot better. But I think the point of ncr/nc3 should not be to compromise what makes neocron great by assuming we have to fit the same systems as crappy mmo's have, just cuz the population isn't currently high enough to support it.
Yes i remember the good old day when my friends used to play NC and i know exactly what you mean :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Biglines
But like you say, pops are too low atm, so i end up playing alone most of the time and don't want to bother the few people there just so i can trade items between alts.
And i hate grind games as much as you do, i'm still around NC because it's unique and so immersive. I even love the SI feature.... and hate it too tbh, but it's those little things.
You also say something that is revealing - Depending on the ammount of players around, the whole dynamic of NC changes. Not like wow where quests will be quests and you can live well without others. interesting...!
I totally agree that the social interaction is an important aspect and it shouldn't be sacrificed for convenience sake. But if there's no one around when i need stuff, i have to exchange items between alts 3-4 times until i get the item i need... usually by dropping stuff on the floor... So, in that case, mail delivery kind of makes sense.
Whoa there. Who said anything about getting rid of the stats? No, that's a big part of NC and should remain. What should go is the horrible bodge of a targeting system, to be replaced by genuine projectile fire/hitscan fire system. Currently, NC just has a wrapper for a tab-targeting system a la every other MMO, whereby who you are targeting is determined by who you are looking at, and a modified to your hit chance is determined by how closed the reticle is (even worse, this is all done by simply asking your client, letting lots of nasty hacks in through the years). The big issue is that the current system doesn't work well, and encourages some ridiculous behaviour.Quote:
Originally Posted by NS_CHROME54
Absolutely, that's why I think it would need to be implemented judiciously. You don't want to disrupt the tradeskill supply chain, and I agree that it's something that really makes Neocron awesome is your reliance on others for tradeskills. But I don't think any of the things I suggested (mailbox system, auction house, player stores) would hurt that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biglines
The problem I have with that is that I see the stats system and the targeting system as being joined at the hip. Integration could be improved, such as moving hit chance calculation to the server side, but frankly, I like the system as it was designed. Perhaps it needs some maintenance, but that doesn't mean it's fundamentally flawed.Quote:
Originally Posted by CMaster
The question then becomes, if you remove the targetting wrapper, how then would weapon skill affect combat beyond "can I use said weapon, yay or nay?"
Your shots don't all have to land where you aim. Your weapon can still have a spread and said spread can be affected by your aiming% on the weapon, which in turn is affected by your stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by NS_CHROME54
Something we have been asking for for years.Quote:
By ingame mail delivery you mean sending items to your other alts without the need to risk dropping the items on the floor on an appartment so the alt can pick it up?
Something else that would be useful: Damage direction indicator.
Regarding auction house:
I agree its very convenient... but i also enjoyed the direct player2player contact in trading. So i'd say for common stuff you sell in stacks its ok, but some items should be "illegal", meaning you can't offer them in 'public' in the AH.
Like FSM stuff, rare parts and weapons and other high value stuff.
And if we have an AH.. what do we need playershops for? O.o
First off, the biggest effect of your stats is in the damage you deal, rather than aiming.
Secondly, ever notice in most FPSes not all shots fly directly to the crosshair? That's because of the firing cone. No reason at all (in fact, pretty certain it should) that your aiming stats (combined with movement etc) shouldn't effect the bullet spread.
Thirdy, yes the existing system <b>is</b> fundamentally flawed. It isn't obvious to players what is happening. It leads to shots coming out of guns sideways and playing in third person being a straight up advantage (you can target people behind you, to the side, even over low walls!). It means that running around and around a solid object, say a pillar, enables you to avoid a lot of enemy fire (if you want to understand why, I can explain, will need some diagrams). It means that cover isn't especially useful. It makes safe spotting mobs easy. It means that you can't truly "snipe". It strongly undermines the usefulness of fortifications and preparation. And most of these problems are inherent to the system. Lower lag and higher update rates will minimize them, but they will always be there.
I agree with this and like DJ said, instead of weapon skill effecting lockon time and miss chance, it could effect spread, recoil and initial accuracy. Most of us have probably grown attached to Neocron's lockon combat and don't want to see it changed but there's no denying the lockon has always just been there as a substitute for superior true fps combat.Quote:
Originally Posted by CMaster