Remove: Underground lock, safezones. Add one safezone that isn't connected to anything pvp-able.
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Remove: Underground lock, safezones. Add one safezone that isn't connected to anything pvp-able.
Mess with the best, Die like the rest.
I have read a bit of the answers but are we discussing Safe zones or zone whoring? To me zone whoring only means that once low HP the player will sync continuously back and forth to prevent being killed. You can put guards into safezones but I doubt this is going to fix everything, a "further" spawn point away from zoneline would be an answer, but I'm guessing that's out of the equation.
Regarding Safezones, one of the only times I have seen it not happening was when there were 2 communities hubs PRO/ANTI-NC. As someone said to me a few months ago, we don't have the right player base to fix this. But perhaps if we focus on balancing and then advertise like it is planned it would be possible? That if we would actually go back to that system, which doesn't make much sense RP-wise and kind of breaks the point of the whole faction system we have had for years.
Also, people feel like they need to be around safezones because they need to farm endless hours to get things from PvE. Make PvE easier, and then you will have a bunch of people willing to risk it. I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas out there.
The real issue is non-safe to safe zone whoring. A la P1/2 or MB1/MB entrance back in the day.
For non-safe to non-safe I don't have a huge issue with. Non-safe to Safe I do. As I said before, an 'aggression' flag after firing a weapon preventing zoning to a safe zone seems best.
A cool down after zoning will not stop people leaving a fight. If anything they will seek to get the optimum abilities before zoning to a non-safe zone, which will only make their reliance on PPUs on the other side greater.
The biggest variable is the community. They have to accept it across the board, not just the handful of people discussing it here.
Like all other changes this will of course first land on our Public Test Server Vedeena, before heading to Titan.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
I've added a news story regarding this discussion on the Neocron Launcher (as well as on our Social Media presence), in order to ensure everyone gets their say. Obviously we cannot implement everything discussed here but we really want to ensure we can consider as many options as possible. That way we can find the best way to deal with this issue. If you're talking to people in game about this, direct them here so their thoughts can be captured.
To further discourage back-and forth zoning, this mallus should stack. Maybe even in geometric rate (eg: 2 seconds + what you already had when zoning*2 ). This way most players will hardly notice the 2 seconds while zonewhores will build up massive penalty quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trivaldi
I think this is both simple and non-disruptive enough to give it a try alone.
The below is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.
If the player is unable to zone due to the cool down, how would they zone in order to increase the length of that cool down?Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent L
The above is my personal opinion and only intended to further the discussion, it's not a indication of intent by the team as a whole.
I think I misunderstood the concept you were talking about.
I thought about tackling the problem from entirely opposite side: instead of preventing zoning after using a weapon, something like prevent using a weapon after zoning.
I know that it takes the fight-or-flight decision away from players, but as already stated here trapping ppl in a zone is easily exploitable by a team of gankers. So it's less damaging to leave the flight option always open.
That's why I talked about it being low-profile solution, aimed at taking the fun away from whores by making them powerless rather than forcing them to fight to death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent L
No, so far the most popular discussions were:
- If you shoot/perform hostile action on another character, you gain a status/flag which means you're IN PVP
- If you zone whilst under the status/flag IN PVP, then you receive a mallus preventing you from zoning into another zone for a certain cooldown (perhaps 10 seconds).
Other suggestions which are kind of in discussion, but have been debated to a lesser extent are:
- If you go from a PVP sector to a Safe sector, should armed guards such as copbots attack the IN PVP flagged characters, in addition to their cooldown which prevents them from zoning or using the GR.
- If they zone from a PVP sector into their own Faction HQ, would any additional mallus as above be applied, or just the cooldown.
- If a player has the PVP flag and escapes to a PVE area such as a Sewer, and they are followed and killed, will the SL and Symp loss of the sector apply, or a reduced penalty because it is a continuation of a fight that begun elsewhere.
- Placing doors/zones/protection status after zoning into a sector (However this was discouraged as an option by the Dev team, and for quite valid reasons.)
On a separate note, and to further Dribble Joy's discussion:
What if we made it so that if a PPU cast third party buffs onto a player who had the IN PVP flag, then they also gained that flag by proxy. This would discourage multiboxers/PPUs from intervening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dribble Joy
If this is going to be viable, Copbots need to have their damage improved, and their aim should be made accurate and to pass through other characters, otherwise this again could be exploited to kill runners in safe zones by using the Copbot's aggro as a tool.
after attacking someone, the player who damaged someone receives a debuff.
If you zone while this debuff is on you it will give you another stackable debuff that works like a "stackable DoT with a count down timer".
So if someone is continually Synching after they were the aggressor they could gain SI for each time they synched/had a stacked "dot debuff".
The SI would make them all around weaker and could not pk as indiscriminately, it would cause griefers to min max for lower tier'd weaponry In order to chase someone down (who is not returning fire and running for their life) through multiple synchs, just to gun them down for no good game reason, other then their own immature entertainment
every time they'd have to chase someone down who doesnt fight back they'd gain for example 15-25 % SI as lng as they have the intial debuf
So after attacking someone they get "attacker debuff" that does nothing in itself
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Shadow
How would that work if the PPU is logged afk (or on the other client) in the safe zone? He would get the flag and then what? Be insta-gibbed by the guards in said Safezone? Or would you use some other punishment?
What do Copbots have to do with zonelaming? I thought that their job was only to enforce the law on negative SL or do you mean faction guards or others "defending" the turf in some safezones.
The lines of discussion are blurring a little for me now with the 2 or 3 subdiscussions that have cropped up. I am not having a dig here, just seeking clarification.
No, I am simply repeating and expanding on what was said by Trivaldi:Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
Copbots protect the city sectors, and this should include protecting the city from runners who are actively fighting one another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trivaldi
My point about PPU's casting third party buffs on runners with an *In PVP* flag would mean that they would be shot by Copbots, however they would only receive the PVP flag, they would not have the cooldown (because they have not yet zoned with a PVP flag) which prevents them from zoning. They would however, be trapped in the next zone for X seconds, if they zone to escape the Copbot fire.
I plead for 10-30-s Countdown timer after entering a Zone b4 able to join the next, but it shouldnt affect normal playing, so smaller zones will Need a smaller countdown.
Spies shouldnt be able to Zone stealthed, and there should be a 10s wear-off after using stealth b4 able to synch.
This would also fix a few grinding exploits (like running past the small Mobs at a cave entry to get to the very last room in Caves to drone the bossmobs and would make it nearly impossible to get to Doy Tunnels lvl 3 by stealthing!)
NO wiping of any Buffs, because aoeing UG will take even more fun out of OPing and will always benefit the Group with the most ppus!
There should be one exception for Rejoining Sectors.
Runners should be able to rejoin the Zone they came from if the Zone he/she is currently in is a safezone. After entering the pvp Zone he has to stay there until the timer runs out again.
edit: Besides, since Opfighting Teams have to Stay like 30 seconds outside of the UG, times between hacking layers should be either set to 90s or 120s. I think that will also allow more and faster show-ups of the attacked Groups since the op isnt already gone b4 theyre set up. Maybe there will even be less ninjaing...
inside city sectors is a cooldown ok, i think 20 secs be enough
This will kill people in wastelands so it does affect normal playing very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by ulx
Typical scenario: You zone in wastes (a very large zone), look around and see 6 Hoverbots above you.
How it works so far: You zone back and seek another entry point.
Your idea: You're dead.
This is also what happens when zoning from OZ station to the Outzone, because of the Dragon Wrath Members often left near zone line. So above scenario applies for city sectors as well.
Mind that if you travel diagonally on a quad you also change zones very fast. If you zone in a corner, there is about 1s between zoning.
Idea: ban some buffs (eg shields/def/absorber, resist and combat boosters, *maybe* heals) from safezones, just like normal weapons. (Maybe only foreign cast) This would certainly fix the "hop into safety to recieve buffs from afk ppu" problem.
What are cons of such ban?
I still think suggestions need to be specifically oriented to a PvP Situation. The topic is about Zone Whoring, which to my understanding is specifically: getting into a fight, then zoning back and forth repeatedly, or into a safe zone to avoid death.
I do not think people should be getting wires crossed and applying any behaviour discussed so far to standard game play such as crossing the wastes, unless you are specifically referring to a PvP scenario. This change should affect PvP only, not casual game behaviour such as driving through the wastes or running around in OZ.
What there has not been enough discussion on, is Outpost Fighting behavior, and whether people believe Trivaldi's suggestion of a PvP Flag would remedy the situation. For example, should PPUs be vulnerable for these 'PvP' flags or not. (Say if they Damage boost, De-buff or Anti-heal another runner)
If anyone is reading this and simply agrees with a suggestion that has been made (and therefore doesn't post), please reply to let us know which suggestions are agreeable to you, that helps everyone and guides this thread forward in the right direction.
I think we've skipped the most important part of any problem-solving process: identifying problems. There is lot of confusion even about what "zonewhoring" is. Can we prepare exhaustive list of behaviors considered zonewhoring? Then we could work it one by one and analyze solutions in context of every scenario.
Some of them I believe are not even confined to the zone line: like holstering a weapon and hiding behind a copbot. This was sidestepped by removing most cops from PP - which resulted in ppl running to the nearest cop: in next zone.
Now if generic solution would be cops shooting everyone with PvP flag, it'd also apply to cops holding guard on Plaza side of PP/Plaza zoneline - no more zoning malluses necessary here other than stream of hot plasma from CPR.
To complete the chaos and digressions in this post I have one simple and ready to use solution: post Storms on PP side of zoneline.
I believe cops were stationed there at some point in time, and got removed exactly because players wanted to hug the zoneline.
lets be serious: is there any real problem with zone-laming outside of outposts (underground entrance)? in fact anyone complaining about lost kills because someone else jumped back into plaza 1 safety should be pointed and laughed at (my opinion). if you want to duel sans zone-laming, dont go to plaza 2. problem solved. and if someone else flees from you in the wastes by constant frequent zone-crossing, he or she might just be better than you when it comes to using game mechanics. i think we should concentrate on op fights and how to improve them.
Its not like i didnt take that into consideration, Yes, there are dangerous zones, if you are on foot you might still die and imo thats tough luck ppl have to deal with, with a vehicle, ur even better off just stepping on it than turning the car (takes forever) and zoning back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent L
And how often did ppl get stuck in synch on a vehicle when driving diagonal with 2 or 3 sudden synchs...how about u just adjust your driving? Too tough is it? Driving less diagonal? xD
Or just free vehicles from the timer, its impossible to zone whore with a vehicle anyway xD
But still, i dont see your point, i havent died yet in OZ too and i actually own noob apps in OZ1. Especially if the wrath members are at the subway stairway the next corner to safety is not far. Its not like theyre spread all over OZ xD
edit: And this will improve opfighting since ppl have to give at least a 30 seconds fight
These suggestions go much further than addressing zonewhoring and negatively impact the rest of the game, reading your post it seems like you'd prefer the zones didn't exist and are trying to force people to behave how they would if there were no zones at all. There are several problems with this, one being that if there weren't any zones you'd be able to see what dangers lie 10 feet in front of you and if you're trying to avoid death wouldn't go there to begin with. Another problem is every time you try to zone and run into this zoning block timer you're thrown out of the game and it all starts to seem plastic, in other words it makes no sense at all and breaks suspension of disbelief, not to mention how annoying this would be while trying to travel in the city or out in the wastes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ulx
The no zoning while stealthed idea obviously hurts solo PvE and spies a lot, this sounds like something you'd hear a year ago when drone exploiting was still possible and prevalent, it no longer is. PvE is messed up at the moment so its best to save suggestions that would drastically change things like this until after the team have gotten around to balancing PvE. It's no good looking at how PvE is right now and using that to base your suggestions because everything you see now can and likely will be changed, let's see what the team have planned for this first.
Bottom line, this thread is about zonewhoring only, maybe I'm misunderstanding that term but I believe it applies only to people zoning constantly in PvP to escape death. If you want to talk about PvE and have suggestions I wouldn't do it right now but if you must, then make another thread for it.
The problem is right now zone line whoring is an essential part of pvp, people might not like it but lets imagine a world with no zone line whoring...
You zone out to find a full OP team of enemies waiting for you and die obviously VERY quickly. You think to yourself, should I go back and try to kill some? NO cos you have no chance to escape really
You go for the intention of having some fun fights, you go out once, fight for 2mins and die, you then spend 15-20mins getting pokes rebuying armour and waiting for SI before finally going back for another 2mins of fighting OR you win and wait 20 mins for the other guy to get back for another 2mins of fighting.
As for ppus at zone lines... well thats a issue that needs fixing in an entirely different thread which to put it simply would be based around ppu buffs being about 50% less effective (or perhaps even less) when used on other people. Yes I know that ppu buffs used on themself already are better but its still to much when used on other people. As I've stated a million times if you have a 2v2 fight, 2 tanks vs 1 tank 1 ppu the tank and ppu will win about 90% of the time as the tank with the ppu will take almost no damage and the other 2 will be taking a TON of damage thanks to damage booster. In a perfect world a 2v2 fight 2 tanks vs 1 tank 1 ppu would be a 50/50 affair. To put it bluntly, the outcome of fights right now are almost completely decided by the number of ppus per side. this is dumb.
Yes, my Solution is a blunt one.Quote:
Originally Posted by hatmankh
And yes, you mostly dont know whats waiting after a Zone line, welcome to Neocron.
The Problem with zoning and the timer has been mentioned, why the f*ck do u bring it up again?
Spies with an Obliterator can literally go anywhere. Caves like Doy Tunnels ARENT MEANT TO BE SOLO'ed! Get that in ur head
besides, ist just sth that would get fixed along the way but it is rather meant to even the chances a just a Little if he has to wait 10 seconds after stealth wore off b4 zoning, but yes, it will be a big bother to all the gimped pvp Setups with just a jones stealth! (and i find that a good Thing=P)
Those were great times when ppl had open fights=P
Alright, ur actually telling me that you nor your clan ever sends a Scout first b4 going to the OP and die? Well thats actually not a Problem of my solution but your Problem not to collect Intel b4 joining the fight, so lmao!Quote:
Originally Posted by DIABLO666
Spies would still be able to stealth away (right after zoning out) and Report to the clan, while they can decide to fight or not. Even if the Scout dies he can tell his ppl about how many ppl are there. cmon, thats Basic knowledge in NC.
And Dont tell me u e.g. liked being just 4 against 10 just because u could always Zone back to the UG? Do u call that Fun? srsly?!
And as i said b4 dont touch buffs. Removing them after zoning or anything similar will just make aoe'ing more common, u guys so hot for being aoed in p2 or at any OP when leaving the UG? Gone mad?!
Seems like only carebears and/or griefers talking here who want to Keep things as is.
Zone whoring is not an essential Feature. Ist just a nowadays commonly used Thing which got even favoured by several changes they did to the game way back
edit: Others having buttplug ppus/Medics is not only an issue in this game. Just get your own buttplug or deal with it...
In current situation (removal of turrets), zonewhoring the UG is pretty much the only advantage left for defenders...
So is it really a problem, or just a makeshift solution to entirely different problem?
my english is bad i hope ist same imprtantly with german
da ich finde, dass man den runnern oder in diesem fall den flüchtenden nicht die Möglichkeit nehmen DARF wege zu gehen oder wegzulaufen, wie die Zone zu verlassen.
die zonegrenze oder auch gullideckel auszunutzen und sie in schleife zu benutzen sollte man anders zu unterbinden wissen.
vielleicht hilft eine art sync-zähler, wenn man innerhalb 60 Sekunden 12 mal gezoned ist kann man für 10 Minuten die Zone nicht verlassen als strafe.
da es so dazu kommen kann, dass sein verfolger ein sync mehr hatte zu anfang und ihn deshalb nicht verfolgen kann, sollte diese 10 Minuten sperre auch nur dann in kraft treten, wenn gleichzeitig sein Gegner im gleichen Sektor ist.
ist allerdings sehr schwer umzusetzen. eventuell hätte ich da noch eine Idee.
das Problem ist ja nicht, zum flüchten den sync zu benutzen um Richtung safezone zu flüchten. sondern innerhalb kürzester zeit so oft wie möglich zu syncen damit das life hochregg. eine strafe könnte sein, dass nach 12x syncen innerhalb 60 Sekunden der Transport auf null fällt und Agilität und atlethic ebenfalls für 5 Minuten auf null fällt und man zusätzlich in de rmitte des sectors (spawnpunkt) spawnt, man aber immernoch syncen kann.
da das auch alles sehr schwierig ist würd ich nach dem shema (Brieftasche) gehen, 12 mal syncen binnen 60 Sekunden und eine Warnung zeigt an, dass pro weiteren sync der soullight um 1 fällt. nach 10 Minuten wird der negative Effekt natürlich aufgelöst. Bin mal gespannt wer sich damit ins minus schiesst.
man könnte aber auch den sync den man überqueert hat für 30 Sekunden sperren und er kann einfach nicht zurück und wenn innerhalb 3 Minuten 4 mal die gleiche Zone grenze überqueert wurde kann man diese auch für ne Minute speren. da ist es halt schwierig, dass man nicht ausversehen den verfolger straft, das negativ soullight bestrafungs System fänd ich besser.
Mir ist noch eine gute Idee eingefallen.
Angenommen man synct öfter als 30 mal innerhalb 3 Minuten, dann bekommst du einen soullight zähler.
Das bekommst du als verfolger natürlich auch, da du den gejagten ja hinterherkommen willst aber du läufst als verfolger ja nicht Gefahr zu sterben.
wenn also der verfolgte und der verfolger jeweils 50 mal syncen haben beide ein negativ soullight zähler von 50 und derjenige der stirbt, verliert dann 50 soullight, derjenige der verfolgt hat wird der negativ soullight zähler von 50 nach 10 Minuten wieder resettet.
so kann man verhindern, dass der dominante jäger die gleichen Konsequenzen trägt wie der gejagte, der das sync-whoring ausnutzt.
way too complicated,overthink this again
what he said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostface_Speak