LE & Vehicle Protection

Actually this effectively solves the "parked on mobs" issue. Either side can now shoot your vehicle if you use the vehicle in a non-intended way to cause others trouble (by parking on a mob so they cannot loot it.) Seems to me that "all vehicles are subject to damage by other players." solves that neatly.

The only argument I could see for this being a "bad change" comes from a position where the player believes that they are intended to be able to play the game completely PvE without ever interacting with other players in a PvP mode. I believe a core design premise of this game is a lack of safety and an air of tension in the wild places, and as such, this change seems to support that intent.

As an aside, without a Dev's call on whether or not Neocron is intended to be played "alone/together" (like WoW/CoH/EQ etc.) or whether Neocron is intended to be a community game that cannot be soloed safely in it's entirety, it's hard to know where the focus should be with regard to changes.

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Originally Posted by Dope

Actually this effectively solves the "parked on mobs" issue. Either side can now shoot your vehicle if you use the vehicle in a non-intended way to cause others trouble (by parking on a mob so they cannot loot it.) Seems to me that "all vehicles are subject to damage by other players." solves that neatly.

The only argument I could see for this being a "bad change" comes from a position where the player believes that they are intended to be able to play the game completely PvE without ever interacting with other players in a PvP mode. I believe a core design premise of this game is a lack of safety and an air of tension in the wild places, and as such, this change seems to support that intent.

As an aside, without a Dev's call on whether or not Neocron is intended to be played "alone/together" (like WoW/CoH/EQ etc.) or whether Neocron is intended to be a community game that cannot be soloed safely in it's entirety, it's hard to know where the focus should be with regard to changes.

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I don't know hwo told you that players which play a while (!!) / or for long time their chars do play the game solo/ alone or without interacting with other players? This is an error. NC is intended to have a LE-option, this is part of the game, too.

The only difference is that they take the option to avoid beeing ganked by other players, especially by those "experts" which are going WOCed with all-mc5 to kill everything which is not on the tree count to 3 :p

Reed

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Originally Posted by Dope

Actually this effectively solves the "parked on mobs" issue. Either side can now shoot your vehicle if you use the vehicle in a non-intended way to cause others trouble (by parking on a mob so they cannot loot it.) Seems to me that "all vehicles are subject to damage by other players." solves that neatly.

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Either side cannot shoot your vehicle, only the UN-LE'd side can shoot your vehicle. This is what makes the change unfair. I'd agree that if both sides could shoot any vehicle regardless of LE staus it would at least be fair. But only the one side gets to shoot vehicles in this patch, LE'd people get screwed hard.

Wait, really?

I misunderstood. I thought that *right now* on live, vehicles with LE'd owners could not be destroyed, but those with Non-LE'd owners could, and that this would change that so that all vehicles were fair game regardless.

If that's not how it is being implemented then I'm clearly confused. I'm not on Vedeena though, I just read the forums.

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Originally Posted by Faid

Either side cannot shoot your vehicle, only the UN-LE'd side can shoot your vehicle. This is what makes the change unfair. I'd agree that if both sides could shoot any vehicle regardless of LE staus it would at least be fair. But only the one side gets to shoot vehicles in this patch, LE'd people get screwed hard.

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Sorry Faid, but that would just be silly..
If LE's could shoot unLE'd vehicles, we would end up with unLE'd people being defenceless (I am here speaking of a LE'd who is not in a vechicle btw)..

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Originally Posted by Kame

Doesnt solve LEd parking on dead mobs.

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So does this mean we should be exploring a loots rights problem instead of a LE/unLE VHC problem? Root cause analysis!

OK this is why we need an official explanation of what is happening with vehicles in this patch. People are very confused as to what is actually happening to LE'd vehicles. They don't realise that UN-LE'd people will be able to destroy any LE'd vehicle whithout any way for the LE'd vehicle to defend itself. Almost everyone I tell about this can't believe that the devs would actually do it and they think there must be some mistake. And this is just for the few dozen people on these forums, the majority of the actual in game players have no idea what-so-ever. Anyway still waiting on the explanation of why the devs think this is a good idea, it's only been a few weeks since they said they would try to explain their decision...

And to clear things up a little more for those that dont/haven't played for years, right now any combat vehicle regardless of le can blow up a vehicle. The change will make this so ONLY UN-LE'D can damage ANY VEHICLE. As it is on retail right now is a bug that was never intended. Patch 181/182 is the bandaid.

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Originally Posted by Faid

Almost everyone I tell about this can't believe that the devs would actually do it and they think there must be some mistake. And this is just for the few dozen people on these forums, the majority of the actual in game players have no idea what-so-ever.

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As far as I'm concerned I'm playing a game I love for free, and as it stands all the devs are currently asking for is feedback and input to make this game better.

Regardless of who you tell or their feelings on it, it's irrelevant because they're not here expressing their opinion. So instead of whinging to your mates or demanding answers from the devs why don't you ask your friends why they're not contributing to the future of this game, whether it's through laziness or ignorance.

If the game take directions they don't like and they weren't here to get their point across they have no recourse.

Right Roger that makes perfect sense, the devs should cater to the tiny minority that make up forum posters. Never mind the actual population, they don't matter anyway right? Neocron was so great when we had 1 - 2 % population for years. If you think that my trying to address a huge problem with this patch is just me "whinging" then there's no point to any of this. The people I've told about this patch arent my friends they are the general population of the game. And if you don't think that they are directly contributing to the future of Neocron simply by playing the game then you are mistaken.

Faid, I also doesn't think the new VHC rules are a problem and I think you're just whinning.

This ruleset fixes more than it breaks.

Serves you people right for using an LEd chars and VHC to grief others.

I hope this thread gets closed, we've been around the issue 2-3 times already.

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Originally Posted by Netphreak

Not trying to be funny here but how does what you've said above actually relate to mokoi's point about common firearms doing too much damage to vehicles. It has nothing to do with damage against mobs.

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(Refer to Page 2 in this thread)
Didn't take any offense so no problemo. I was simply stating that if
Logic A: Weapon damage against mobs in which rare weapon dmg > vehicle damage,
then it should be constant with
Logic B: Weapon damage against vehicle in which rare weapon dmg > vehicle damage;; = true.

I hopes you can follow this!

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Originally Posted by Assimilator

So does this mean we should be exploring a loots rights problem instead of a LE/unLE VHC problem? Root cause analysis!

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I agree with you Assimilator, I think we should be exploring different ways to loot mobs since that seems to be the argument that most Un-LE'd people are taking. They can't get to their mobs which they killed because an LE'd person sits their Rhino on the mob. Maybe we should look into a way to implement a sort of "/loot" command that is common throughout MMORPGs.

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Originally Posted by DR REED

This would be destroyed as an excellent an funny game option to avoid boring Dex/Int levelling.

Another fail patch which only prolongs the boring levelling of this char types.

Often simple changes make things more worse in a complex environment, therefore this "simple" patches should be overthought more.

Reed

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I agree 110% with this.

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Originally Posted by Faid

Right Roger that makes perfect sense, the devs should cater to the tiny minority that make up forum posters. Never mind the actual population, they don't matter anyway right? Neocron was so great when we had 1 - 2 % population for years. If you think that my trying to address a huge problem with this patch is just me "whinging" then there's no point to any of this. The people I've told about this patch arent my friends they are the general population of the game. And if you don't think that they are directly contributing to the future of Neocron simply by playing the game then you are mistaken.

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Of course they shouldn't cater to a tiny minority, but if they are the only people being vocal and expressing their opinions, which the devs have asked the community to do, then that's exactly what will happen! Forget what they do in game, they need to be on here giving their input. They have the chance to be more than numbers on a server.

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Originally Posted by RogerRamjet

Of course they shouldn't cater to a tiny minority, but if they are the only people being vocal and expressing their opinions, which the devs have asked the community to do, then that's exactly what will happen! Forget what they do in game, they need to be on here giving their input. They have the chance to be more than numbers on a server.

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Getting a little off topic with this one... fine, regardless of the fact that it would be better if everyone who played posted, the fact of the matter is this is not the case. If devs only listen to the (minority of) players on the forums when making changes, they're going to drive off much of the population. Obviously some issues are hard to solve, in complex situations forum feedback can be invaluable. This is not one of those times, a change which obviously opens up a segment of the population to griefing (in this case the new player segment of all things!) is obviously not in the best interest of the game.

It's funny that people on here accuse Faid of whining. What does he have to lose? He already has multiple capped chars, a clan full of support behind him in the event someone tries to grief him, and huge amount of resources at his disposal should his property be destroyed. It's hard for me to think of anyone that would be directly hurt less than him by these changes.

The reason Faid (and others including myself) are so upset, is because this change will alienate new players. Those without caped chars, without the ability to call in a dozen friends ready to fight, and without access to millions of nc. Does this description ring a bell to anyone? It's exactly the demographic least likely to post in these forums.

Of all the problems neocron has, let's not have it fail to the self cannibalization of its population by the vocal, experienced, minority.

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Originally Posted by onero S

The reason Faid (and others including myself) are so upset, is because this change will alienate new players. Those without caped chars, without the ability to call in a dozen friends ready to fight, and without access to millions of nc. Does this description ring a bell to anyone? It's exactly the demographic least likely to post in these forums.

Of all the problems neocron has, let's not have it fail to the self cannibalization of its population by the vocal, experienced, minority.

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YES! I just wish people who accuse Faid of whining would get this through their thick heads.

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Originally Posted by Kame

Faid, I also doesn't think the new VHC rules are a problem and I think you're just whinning.

This ruleset fixes more than it breaks.

Serves you people right for using an LEd chars and VHC to grief others.

I hope this thread gets closed, we've been around the issue 2-3 times already.

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I don't even Rhino, I have multiple capped un-le'd characters. The only Le'd people I have are tradeskillers who don't need to level anymore. This vehicle change doesn't effect me in the least. It effects the 75% of the server that are currently LE'd and it will effect them negatively. It is unfair, and unlike you and some others, I'm concerned with what is good for the game as a whole, not with how it effects me.

There is another point that nobody discussed about before.

The LE-players that use drones. In the vehicle update for LE-players is the following sentense highlighted.
"The law enforcer only protects the player and NOT his belongings.

So now lets try to think another step forward. Vehicles count to belongings and how about the drones? The drones represents a remote controlled gun that if the drone get destroyed the player is still alive. For me it's a kind of properties too.
If vehicles will be attackable when a LE-player is in the vehicle I think the drones should be attackable too. At the moment there are a lot of LE-players with drones who pull the victims to a non-LE or LE-player and drop the drone if the victims are in range. After this the victims automatically attack the other players and kill them. That's really a kidding way to abuse players who want to level or farm rare parts in the mc5.

So all in all I think the drones should be attackable too.

Yes to the drones idea and armour counts as belongings too so we should be able to shoot a LE'd runner and damage his armour but not his health, this way we can shoot their armour down to 0%. Oh and gloves count too, they aren't really implants since you wear them, they aren't inside your body, we should be able to shoot a LE'd monk's CAG gloves down to 0 condition so they can't use their spells anymore.

I also believe LE'd runners should drop belts when they die, same as everyone else. It's a contradiction to say the LE doesn't protect belongings and yet when you die, you don't drop a belt, clearly it is protecting your belongings here.

It's a harsh world! Don't like it? Find a zone with no other runners or take out your LE.

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Originally Posted by hatmankh

It's a harsh world! Don't like it? Find a zone with no other runners or take out your LE.

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It's really hard to sell the game to potential players with statements like that. This isn't EvE with its big bag of tricks and the sandbox to entice players to join. We're trying to prevent potential griefing tactics that might alienate the new player base.

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Originally Posted by Assimilator

This isn't EvE with its big bag of tricks and the sandbox to entice players to join.

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Not flaming at all, but isn't this a sandbox with a fairly unique bag of tricks?" (Vehicles, hacking, droning, etc.)
I think so; Admittedly telling people to shove it is a tough sell for those that don't like PvP, but if PvP is an intended bit of game (lke it is in Eve) then it behooves the Devs and playerbase both to just say so.

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Originally Posted by Dope

Not flaming at all, but isn't this a sandbox with a fairly unique bag of tricks?" (Vehicles, hacking, droning, etc.)

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No offense taken and a fair point, but due to the age of the game and lack of "modern conveniences" compared to other MMOs we just don't have as big of a mass appeal than most MMOs. Why risk alienating ourselves even more?

Setting and atmosphere aside, the end game OP fight PVP is definitely where I get the most out of NC (for me). Unfortunately for new players there's quite the hill to climb to reach that point... So why introduce a rule set that has potential to be used for griefing? I just think there's a better solution out there both in the short term and as a permanent solution.

Some players have said to just remove the LEs if they want a way to defend themselves. I think this rule set hurts the low to mid level players the most. Do you really think they'd remove the LE to defend themselves? How exactly does a mid level player defend themselves from a capped player?

Again, if LE players camping dead mobs is an issue look at changing the loot rights. If an unLE gunner is hurting others and is protected by a sitting in a LE vehicle look at changing the LE status of the users in the vehicle / not letting unLEs in.

Having enough money for a Rhino and for repair nanites means you are not a complete newb to the game anymore, in my opinion.

A Rhino can cost you up to 300k, and with 100 packs of nanites you've spent ca. 500k. This is a lot of money for a new player, believe me. I've been helping new playeres ever since and they even cannot afford to buy a new weapon at the vendor nor do they have the money to get them built. So if we really want to do something for the newbs it's helping them out with equipment in the start instead of changing rulesets that many of them don't care about until much later.

I reckon that if you've gotten that far in game you should be prepared for some of the dangers of the Wastelands. I think People will learn to cope with it especially when they are told about it by other players.

However, because there seems to be so much concern about the vehicle ruleset maybe the impact on the LE'd player can be lowered by making Rhinos for LE drivers always respawnable at the ASG, like the quad.

Of course one issue of this will be that LE players will very rarely need to buy a Rhino again, but this is the case anyhow if the vehicles cannot be attacked and destroyed by other players.

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Originally Posted by Assimilator

Some players have said to just remove the LEs if they want a way to defend themselves. I think this rule set hurts the low to mid level players the most. Do you really think they'd remove the LE to defend themselves? How exactly does a mid level player defend themselves from a capped player?

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Yes ... but Low-Mid leveled players should not go rhinoing and kill high leveled mobs should they?

I mean I can somehow understand that the newbie who just bought a hovertech won't find it that funny if his new vehicle gets shot down. But that is another thing. Vehicles should have better armor and maybe more hitpoints.

Maybe the patch should not be released with an according vehicle power change. But that is up to the devs. Fixing the LE exploits has a higher priority maybe.

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Originally Posted by nabbl

Yes ... but Low-Mid leveled players should not go rhinoing and kill high leveled mobs should they?

I mean I can somehow understand that the newbie who just bought a hovertech won't find it that funny if his new vehicle gets shot down. But that is another thing. Vehicles should have better armor and maybe more hitpoints.

Maybe the patch should not be released with an according vehicle power change. But that is up to the devs. Fixing the LE exploits has a higher priority maybe.

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There were some very good threads about changes that should be made to vehicles in order to encourage people to use them not that long ago.

• Lowering requirements,
• Allowing you to salvage parts from a blown up vehicle which contributes >50% of the parts to making a new one,
• Increasing armor and hit points of vehicles,
• Improving the handling of some vehicles
• Adjusting damage of attack vehicles making others viable again

If the above changes were made to vehicles then there would be viable alternatives to just using a Rhino.

You can't "fix LE'd exploits" by creating UN-LE'd exploits, which is what this vehicle change does.

All the Dev's have to do is change the loot rights rules. A mob can only be looted by the person or the team that killed it. This solves the LE'd rhino parking on our loot problem.

Make rhino's susceptible to damage if any of the occupants are UN-LE'd, whether it be the gunner, driver, or passengers. This solves the LE'd driver with UN-LE'd gunner problem. If the UN-LE'd gunner hops out kill him, if he doesn't hop out kill the rhino then kill him.

Make rhino's susceptible to damage in OP zones regardless of LE status of the occupants. This solves the rhino's blocking UG's at op fights problem.

All of these solutions would fix the current problems regarding LE's and vehicles without creating even more problems down the road. This would be a decent way of going about things.

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Originally Posted by Faid

All the Dev's have to do is change the loot rights rules. A mob can only be looted by the person or the team that killed it. This solves the LE'd rhino parking on our loot problem.

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Bad idea, that makes the problem worse the rhino can just sit there until the mob despawns. That idea also removes the ability for other players to loot unwanted mobs.

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Originally Posted by Brammers

Bad idea, that makes the problem worse the rhino can just sit there until the mob despawns. That idea also removes the ability for other players to loot unwanted mobs.

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OK then change the hit box of the mobs so rhino's cant park on them.

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Originally Posted by Brammers

Bad idea, that makes the problem worse the rhino can just sit there until the mob despawns. That idea also removes the ability for other players to loot unwanted mobs.

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Or even more easily make LEd vehicles clipable.

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Originally Posted by onero S

Or even more easily make LEd vehicles clipable.

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Or even more easily make LEd vehicles damagable !

wait... that would be too easy...

I will close this thread for the time being so we don't go driving in circles.
This is not putting an end to this topic - be assured that this discussion will be reopened in context with the aforementioned official statement.