Woc Xp for a Private Eye

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27-03-13, 22:20
demonssword

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Antrim

Huh? Based on what figures?

Well PE cap for dex is 36-40mil for level 80 dex (I think) so if you went 100mil over that its say 140mil to cap + woc.
Vs
Spy cap for dex is 157mil to level 100 dex.

So 140mil (PE WOC) vs 160mil (Spy 100 Dex). If you are soloing you don't get your points spread between all your stats as far as im aware. Of course Spys would get an advantage of higher level drones in my example such as being able to use punishers (though both can use the RK drones given enough drugs and imps). So likely chance is given my theory that a PE if you only had to 100mil overcap to woc, could do before a spy could reach basic cap.
28-03-13, 01:12
William Antrim

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonssword

Well PE cap for dex is 36-40mil for level 80 dex (I think) so if you went 100mil over that its say 140mil to cap + woc.
Vs
Spy cap for dex is 157mil to level 100 dex.

So 140mil (PE WOC) vs 160mil (Spy 100 Dex). If you are soloing you don't get your points spread between all your stats as far as im aware. Of course Spys would get an advantage of higher level drones in my example such as being able to use punishers (though both can use the RK drones given enough drugs and imps). So likely chance is given my theory that a PE if you only had to 100mil overcap to woc, could do before a spy could reach basic cap.

I cant work out if you think this is a bad thing or not? I think even with your very rough calculations an effect like this can only be a good thing.
28-03-13, 16:05
demonssword

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Antrim

I cant work out if you think this is a bad thing or not? I think even with your very rough calculations an effect like this can only be a good thing.

I will reply with a post from the post you quoted asking "based on what figures?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonssword

I don't think I would agree that they should just have to get the X% above (I think its about 65%) additional xp overcap. However the 100mil overcap may also be to low as it means if you drone it solo you could get WOC on a PE before a Spy could cap.

So I still think that having to go 220mil overcap for a PE is way way way to much, however 100mil overcap because of what I said above I think is still to low. Even at 120mil overcap for a PE that is still just as much as spys need for 100dex, so split the difference, so PEs currently need 220mil and spys 100mil overcap to get to 260mil and WOC level. So maybe 160mil overcap for a PE (total 200mil).
This is hell of a grind without any progression till the end, and the spys would have an easier time maybe in grinding it due to having access to better equipment, however the spy would still have to be grinding out an extra 60mil for the privilege.
28-03-13, 18:03
William Antrim

But you have to factor in the damage done by rare drones that spies can use. If we could plot the time on a graph I am pretty sure there would be a credible rise at the point when a spy hits rare drones and thus a decent "sprint" to the finish line that is obtaining woc xp.

By your calculations and in order to give the PE an equal footing in this regard I believe he/she too would need access to a rare drone (incumbent with the rare dmg bonus that rare weapons as a whole get over store bought weaponry).

Rare RK drones for example would be awesome.

In another thread a while back I proposed the introduction of a filler drone (in between RK-1000 and RK-500) called RK-750 that would wedge in quite nicely for PEs wanting to Woc.

If these changes came in I would also sincerely love some form of rare RK drone too. That would be sweet.

P.s grinding 60m xp with a rare drone is not actually that much work. It is probably 7-8 hours solo in average conditions (normal play state i mean). I know of a person who grinded over 100m xp in 7 hours once (on Titan) at normal XP gain. So yeah 60m is not that difficult to achieve as a spy.

As a PE 60m is a fucking nightmare to gain and therein lies the problem. XP gain goes hand in hand with access to good weaponry, which coupled with extended level caps makes the PE a fucking nightmare to play, even though he is the best class in the game to play with (in my opinion).
28-03-13, 18:28
Dropout

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Antrim

As a PE 60m is a fucking nightmare to gain and therein lies the problem. XP gain goes hand in hand with access to good weaponry, which coupled with extended level caps makes the PE a fucking nightmare to play, even though he is the best class in the game to play with (in my opinion).

Best?! Most fun, sure.. But far from the best :p
28-03-13, 19:04
William Antrim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dropout

Best?! Most fun, sure.. But far from the best :p

What is the difference? :)

It is all about Woc Pe. He is the coolest looking (woc pa) and has the best versatility and durability of any class and is a demon when played well. Therefore he is the best as he is the most fun. Tanks are so simple and brutal, the PE is a finesse fighter. The only thing I can compare a PE to is a hybrid of old in terms of play style.
28-03-13, 23:25
Netphreak

Yup, PE's were always straight up fun. One thing that confuses me though was them having 65 CON and 60 STR, always thought it should be the other way round... But hey I'm going off topic.

P.S. PE's WoC PA looks awesome.
28-03-13, 23:55
Jest

The issue of PE WoC seems to be addressing only a symptom of the true problem which is the necessity of WoC for Private Eyes. The difference for my PE when he gets WoC is going to be huge and that's with a low tech rifle build without WoC armor.

Because of this, I disagree that it is unfair for a PE to get WoC before a Spy caps DEX. In fact I'd say it is essential that a Private Eye gets it earlier. But I'd also like to suggest that a fair trade off would be that a PE is limited to only 3 levels of WoC instead of the normal 5 of the other classes. Is it a fair assumption to say that no PE on Titan has reached level 4 of WoC or is that incorrect?
29-03-13, 01:21
Dribble Joy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jest

The issue of PE WoC seems to be addressing only a symptom of the true problem which is the necessity of WoC for Private Eyes.

As it is for spies as well, it's just that it takes considerably longer to reach it. Even if WoC is not a necessity, the imbalance should be addressed.

Quote:

Because of this, I disagree that it is unfair for a PE to get WoC before a Spy caps DEX. In fact I'd say it is essential that a Private Eye gets it earlier.

I personally would prefer that the time taken to reach WoC for all classes is the same.

Quote:

Is it a fair assumption to say that no PE on Titan has reached level 4 of WoC or is that incorrect?

More than likely, though there have been several PEs on Terra that have gone up to an beyond this.
29-03-13, 02:22
William Antrim

A natural by product of six plus years of levelling.
29-03-13, 07:11
Doc Holliday

Quote:

Originally Posted by demonssword

Even at 120mil overcap for a PE that is still just as much as spys need for 100dex, so split the difference, so PEs currently need 220mil and spys 100mil overcap to get to 260mil and WOC level. So maybe 160mil overcap for a PE (total 200mil).

aside the fact this last part confused the fuck out of me as to where your picking your figures from regards what the overcap should be DO NOT be dumb enough to fall foul of the comparison between pe and spy.

20 extra skill levels is more than enough compensation for the extra xp a spy has to grind for.

Anyone who argues that fact is simply dumb in my opinion. Just wanted to reiterate that point.
29-03-13, 08:19
Dropout

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Antrim

What is the difference? :)

It is all about Woc Pe. He is the coolest looking (woc pa) and has the best versatility and durability of any class and is a demon when played well. Therefore he is the best as he is the most fun. Tanks are so simple and brutal, the PE is a finesse fighter. The only thing I can compare a PE to is a hybrid of old in terms of play style.

Meh I dont like any PA's for PE's.. Hell I even had a noPA Freeman setup on Walker at some point.. If only the SWAT rifle wasent WoC.... :(
But a IAR PE (obviously with WoC PA) is actually probably the most powerfull PVP character possible atm.

Before 2.2, PE's was a very fun and versatile class.. Now, not really.. Its either Xbow or IAR, and not a lot of versatility... Yeah I miss shitbuffing and usefull DB...!
And obviously all the usefull lower TL weapons..
29-03-13, 11:42
Netphreak

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dropout

snip...
But a IAR PE (obviously with WoC PA) is actually probably the most powerfull PVP character possible atm.

Surely you are not going to be able to come close to maximizing the damage potential of an IAR on a PE unless you are sacrificing DEX implants and relying on being drugged up to the max to use the IAR...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dropout

Before 2.2, PE's was a very fun and versatile class.. Now, not really.. Its either Xbow or IAR, and not a lot of versatility... Yeah I miss shitbuffing and usefull DB...!
And obviously all the usefull lower TL weapons..

^ This.
29-03-13, 12:15
demonssword

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Antrim

By your calculations and in order to give the PE an equal footing in this regard I believe he/she too would need access to a rare drone (incumbent with the rare dmg bonus that rare weapons as a whole get over store bought weaponry).

Trouble with that being shop bought ones of course are recrafted to 99% for anyone who would be going for WOC, and likely chance is you aren't going to be using ones crafted from rareparts for the 110-120% dmg/freq. Though I know the rare drones do have bonus dmg above their TL, same as things like the Prototype TT Epic Weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Antrim

In another thread a while back I proposed the introduction of a filler drone (in between RK-1000 and RK-500) called RK-750 that would wedge in quite nicely for PEs wanting to Woc.

An RK-750 could help a PE, though as I said before a PE can actually use the RK-1000 given enough drugs and the right imps. So all adding this drone would really do is just be a bridge for any droner to get between the 2 of them, or maybe just be one you wouldn't have to drug on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Antrim

P.s grinding 60m xp with a rare drone is not actually that much work. It is probably 7-8 hours solo in average conditions (normal play state i mean). I know of a person who grinded over 100m xp in 7 hours once (on Titan) at normal XP gain. So yeah 60m is not that difficult to achieve as a spy.

As a PE 60m is a fucking nightmare to gain and therein lies the problem. XP gain goes hand in hand with access to good weaponry, which coupled with extended level caps makes the PE a fucking nightmare to play, even though he is the best class in the game to play with (in my opinion).

Yep I get this point, when soloing Regants on my spy with a Part-Nem to kill the boss quick then using a Punisher for the adds, I could clear the room in about 5 mins or so (I think) and walked out with around 3mil a run I think. While doing the same on my PE who is now WoC, I was lucky to clear the room in about 10mins and even though I was taking longer to do it walked out with a max of about 2mil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Holliday

aside the fact this last part confused the fuck out of me as to where your picking your figures from regards what the overcap should be DO NOT be dumb enough to fall foul of the comparison between pe and spy.

20 extra skill levels is more than enough compensation for the extra xp a spy has to grind for.

Anyone who argues that fact is simply dumb in my opinion. Just wanted to reiterate that point.

Only reason I used Spy and PE as comparison is both using Dex. But as I said in my opinion is that 100mil overcap for a PE is just to low, but I agree that going to 220mil overcap to reach the same as the other classes need is to much. Especially so if you take the figures I posted in this post above saying that roughly you are getting 2/3 of the xp a spy is getting for clearing the room (2mil for PE, 3mil for spy) and taking double the time to do it (10min for PE, 5min for Spy), So in essence you are getting 1/3 of the XP per min.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netphreak

Surely you are not going to be able to come close to maximizing the damage potential of an IAR on a PE unless you are sacrificing DEX implants and relying on being drugged up to the max to use the IAR...

That is pretty much the case to use the IAR, you need to be using Rifle MC5/Rifle Rare + another dex chip like a cord advancement (preferably an mc5 pistol or riggers though because its more dex and also a bunch of tech combat and weapon lore) the and dex/reflex backbone and all that lot. The last brain slot can either be a dex chip of some and 1 dex drug. Or go for a PPR or something and have to use all 3 dex drugs to get up to the dex needed for it. The other option being using a recycle or repair glove for a bonus to the dex but you sacrifice some tech combat and the ability to use psi stuff. Though using the pistol MC5 also stops you using blessed deflector without using a psi drug.

One suggestion that was posed in another thread though would derail this one a bit so am only mentioning it is that they could lower the requirements of current WOC items so that you didn't need to have as much to use them all. So PEs could use things like the CAR-47 if all WOC weapons were taken down to say 100-105Dex required with WOC 1. Its not a major change, but might allow a bit more balance between classes... though as said this is off topic and I'm sure the topic is somewhere else. Might also help if the S.W.A.T weapons actually were good, as currently they are to low in damage and the main ammo they were used for doesn't work as it was para ammo.

-------------------------

Having a play around with numbers, it is actually possible for a PE to use Punishers before being WOC as well. Using PA 3 + Exp-Ref booster 2.4 + All 3 dex MC5 + co-ord advancement 3 + Dex Glove and all 3 Dex Drugs you get to 115 Dex.... though you are also not great on the stats and without LE you are a bit vulnerable. However using the higher TL drone means you would probably do more damage and get more XP in a faster time.
30-03-13, 00:30
Dropout

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netphreak

Surely you are not going to be able to come close to maximizing the damage potential of an IAR on a PE unless you are sacrificing DEX implants and relying on being drugged up to the max to use the IAR...

Trust me, the damage a PE can do with an IAR is straight up scary. Obviously a spy will be able to put out more damage, but the PE can have (much) better resists than the spy.

To give an example: I did a test with a friend..
He had multiple GM spawned Ion pistols, I had 2 IAR's. Both PE's and both at 200-220 PC/RC.
We stood still, infront of eachother - headshots only.
He dropped with me still having more than half Health left - and he didnt have to reload the Ions either ofc.
And people have whined a lot about fast-switching Ion pistols in the past..

Uh and on topic: 100mil overcap needed on a PE would be perfectly fine. It wouldnt make the PE get WoC incredible fast or anything, AND as it is currently - A PE without WoC is a shitty PE :(

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