Quote:
Originally Posted by Brammers
i hope to god it will contain balancing fixes, because hell, they have taken their time.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brammers
i hope to god it will contain balancing fixes, because hell, they have taken their time.
ohQuote:
Originally Posted by jini
my
god...
We got a TL100 Lowtech Weapon: It does for example 100/min Dmg.
We got a TL105 Hightech Weapon: it does for example 70/min Dmg.
Did you know that there is a hightech bonus, which is added to the total damage? But why does the smaller Weapon do much more Dmg? its totally unlogical.
What are u talking about resists and so on? it doesnt matter in that Sheet... the PPU has 92% resists EVERYWHERE.
i suggest u should have a closer look to the weapon behaviour. currently ure the only one who says that neocron is balanced ^^
I am the only one???
Well it's me, Sork, Okran, KK and GOD knows how many others that think the same. It's not a matter of democracy here... Can you SIMPLY remember what 2.2 brought and what was left behind? Do I have to remind you the powerfull apu/ppu combos that were able to annihilate a whole OP fight clan? Did you forget the 105/min capped HLs? That spies were weak alike sheet of paper? tanks were dieing in 10s against xbow pes?
Obviously the balance project is left unfinished and it was also rushed in. But at least now, you can take your tank, spy or pe in the OP fight anf have some fun with some decent ppu support, which levels Spies vulnerabilities in healing.
If you want sterile balance, then you should make classes with equal defense power, then you can apply this holy grail rule of balancing weapons according to TL you all seek at. And why do we care if a gun of TL100 doe more dmg than a gun of TL 105? Can you play the f**g game? can you enjoy it? thats what interests me. Whine whine whine all whine :o
Ye, if that "whole OP fight clan" wasnt able to perform a single
Shitbuff it was possible for that Apu/Ppu-Team to kill em all.
I dont think that a "OP fight clan" wasnt able to do that if
the clan didn´t suck. Which leads to this thought of mine:
People who sucked at 2.1 are happy now with 2.2.
And why do we care if a gun of TL100 doe more dmg than a gun of TL 105?
Because we want balanced Stuff? Logic?
Why should someone with a toothpick do more harm than a guy with
a longsword, hu? Maybe thats possible in your Twillight Zone but that
should not apply to NC. Anyways, im looking forward to teh xplaination from
teh ubar masta of knowledge.
Or, we could look at it another way. I'm not blowing smoke up my own arse by saying this, but for those that do not know me, I am someone that extremely heavily played NC1, and played and extesnsively tested every class in the game at some point - Including the odd classes like pistol tank back in the day (Which turned out to be a most pointless class to play) . I have also played NC2 extensively, and a fair bit of 2.1 - and Im just getting back into 2.2.Quote:
Originally Posted by jini
Let's look one of the things NC 2, 2.1, 2.2 have left behind from NC1.
Diversity & Variety
The fact that it WAS possible to set up a VIABLE H-C PE, using SpeedGat + TPC, or a Tank with a liberator was one of the most interesting aspects of this game. By adding WoC, and "Balancing", what has actually happened in reality, is that in order to compete in the "Balanced" PvP now, you must be at a completely equal level to your opponent. Not unlike other MMO's.
The "Balanced" PvP I see now is WoC PE (MUST use Dex based weapon), WoC Spy (Must use DEX based weapon) or a Tank with a Creed (MUST use H-C, as Melee is useless).
APU's and hybrids are no longer viable at all, and any variation on the above mentioned classes is fundementally flawed for end game combat.
I don't care that APU/PPU combos were insansely good. The lack of balance was made up for by the fact that each class had its strengths and weaknesses against other classes. IE -
PE's were strongest against APU, SPY and TANK.
A Spy with a good setup and enough speed could easily do all that a PE could do (See Kid Brainiac and Ayane Back in NC1 - Rifles and Pistols, repsectively).
A really good APU could take down any class (Except a PPU) if the APU was quick enough with their casting - surely that's how the APU should be
Tanks annihilated APUs and Spies, but struggled against PE's.
In my opinion, that I am sure by now MANY of you disagree with, the diversity in what classes could do, more than made up for the lack of balance in one vs one PvP.
It was fun that I could try and defend an OP on my own with my PE + Turrets.
This has turned into more of a rant than a point, granted. My overall point is that the "balancing" has lead to an overall complete lack of balance, and totally FORCED specialisation, to the point where I cannot even consider being able to ride a bike on my PE.
The "Balancing" has pissed all over fun's very own cosy little bonfire. :rolleyes:
The grass changes, that came in with NC2.1, not 2.2. Also 2.1's grass improved the rendering time for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by jini
As for APU's. To me APU's where fine in the early days for NC2.2 beta testing. Whether KK though my APU was overpowered or not from watching my Quan video, you have to ask them. However, APU's can fight to a point, but I agree they are too weak in damage dealing and also they are not strong damge receiving wise.
If KK are public, at the end of the day, we are paying the shareholders. We wont pay the shareholders if we don't pay and play a game we dont't like. Also would you invest in KK if you read this forum?Quote:
Originally Posted by jini
Granted they have 5 years of experience, I just hope they don't make the same mistakes again with BP. However I only have to look at another MMORPG with their way they approach customer communication. That is called EvE. They have regular dev blogs on what they are looking at. To take one example they was talking about a slight nerf to one ship recently (Carriers), the devs told us what they was thinking, the community came back with their alternative ideas, and CCP listened.
I do have to give KK credit for involving the community for most of the balancing work in 2006, but since 2.2 has been released, I've not seen that much feedback on balancing.
Balancing does not end ever it's a forever never ending process on any game. The same applies for customer communications.
Edit:
Amem to that. If anyone knows the original NC1,2,2.1 Brammers was a constructor and droner, which I was good at. Now I did take the opportunity to change Brammers into a rifle spy in 2.2's skill release, but there was no way I could be a good constructor and droner in 2.2 with one character. Hence now I have a Brammers for killing people, and a seperate "Mr Brammers" clone for construction!Quote:
Originally Posted by L0KI
All that you say about nc2.1and 2.2 changes are irrellevant now. There has been huge discussion threads as to where things are moving and how, and decisions were taken. Actually what you do is, you put the same old subjescts in the blender and you press the "ON" button.
Things have moved away from the 105 HL APU and the 105 para PPU and for a good reason. Live with them changes.
Yes, Pes cannot be melees nowadays, but this is not due 2.2 in ubalanced, but because kk is not helping the game. And how kk can help a game that leaks popularity as time goes by? Or it leaks because 2.1 was better than 2.2 you think?
I don't give a shit about melee pes or hybrids. Give me good balanced main characters that have good balanced weapons and later, kk willing yes fix those "exotic" things.
Brammers, you compare kk with the EVE team, maybe the single one example of a product and a company that, for several reason succeeded making a game that uses basically some screensavers as backgrounds and big spaceships as players. Either way comparing kk with EVE is a mistake. You cant compare them two.
1.) patch the client back to evo2.1 status.
2.) delete Dmg boost, holy Para, tl10 jones heal.
3.) edit Weapons just like, Xbow, CS, SH, FL and so on to make them viable and balanced again.
4.) Insert Evo2.2 Armor and Resist System.
5.) Insert Runs and Armors of evo2.2
6.) Insert Nanites (reworked!)
7.) Edit PPU Shelter/Deflector, make shitbuffs useless.
8.) Give APUs AIM!!!!
-> nice game.
i'd propose
1)patch back to 2.1
2)remove pe and monk pas
3)remove holy para
4)fix xbow (damage and reqwise)
5)fix drugflash
6)exchange rifle and pistol aim
7)nerf foreign buffs
8)advertise
9)profit
:p
Time paints memories pink ...
It wasn't that easy solveable as you would like to promote it here.
yeah erm.. and it isnt solved yet -.-
Didn't say it is, or did I?
What i implicitly said is, that your "recipe" is nothing more then a daydream and the review lacks acknowledgement for many more things that were wrong in 2.1
ffs ahahahaahQuote:
Originally Posted by nabbl
if you do all this, you get evo 2.2 nuuubbbbb :p wtf!!!111, well except the last 8) about apus everything of what you describe i been done in 2.2, yet you keep claiming 2.2 is unbalanced. In detail:
2) db makes no difference if you use it or not. Same goes for holy para, hence no decent ppu uses these nomore, and tl10 isnt what it used to be, or, more specifically it is the same in power, only now you need twice the hp.. therefore it is cut in 2 in terms of power...
3) the xbow lost 35% of its freq, but the bigest hit was that it lost its main damage: dont forget that it did pure xray, and that there are not xray armor in game. CS was fine as it was, FL is now the rifle it should have always been: a highly accurate weapon, that needs a lot of skill to use. (much like CS that is) SH got a revamped magazine, so now you dont need to rload every 4 shots..
4,5,6,7) are all features of evo 2.2 and have been done, so ... are you drunk or what?
And as for 8), well i guess a lot of whiners worked about that , but if you remember, 2.2 apus needed full aim lock to shoot, and there was LoS, but whiners kicked in and poor kk, to please them lifted both LoS and aimlock, giving you what? 80% of the click and shoot dmg or something?
yeah but the list of changes which have to be done is a little bit longer in evo2.2
to your xbow blabla: the xbow does 50 dmg to a tank even when ure not hitting him. that means u can shoot to the ground and your enemy takes damage. well but ... its BALANCED.
like everything else in nc2.2 youre right!
hm maybe alle the players quit because of the climate warming? we must ask Al Gore for the correct answer i think.
Can you please show me how an xbow can do something like that? Who knows i am using a gun for 2 years andmaybe I dont know how to use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nabbl
The players quit because there is no content updates for a year. Thats why they quit.
only for you jini:Quote:
Originally Posted by jini
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4SXKM4BM
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=5GT1PA1N
wtf :wtf: I love my Jones heal :lol: an my belssed damge boost :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by nabbl
XBow should rise up to dex 115 : i am sick to see xbow spys with 3-4 resi Implants in to get an con setup like an fullcaped Pe o_O because of that cheap 100 dex xbow
ok this would mean that an xbow only would be used by spys but only with dex imp in ( an not with overpusht resi imps)
yes it would nerv the Pc Pe but :
make the Burst stuff fixed und crease up like Judge or Liberator
well this shit megaupload says that all slots are full, and i need to d/l their spyware. I wont get it
works fine for me jini Oo
it was exactly that easy to balance, problem was everyone wanted shiny new features and stuff and that ruined the whole balancing before it even began.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty Max
xbow is was one of the biggest imbalancies in game, just look how it affected con setups. the other one was the apu ppu team, but that's almost it. tanks needed a boost pes and spies were 99% balanced, the latter just whined all the time.
This reaction is exactly what i meant with memories getting painted pink.
You are
- forgetting a lot of things (dippled skillcurves, i.e. resis @114)
- ignoring them on purpose (they just "whined")
We have had the discussion on what was wrong at the time they were that way, have a look in the threads from back then to refresh your memories.
Not read the whole thread.
Way to little data and which weapon system was used? How much skilling?
I'm assuming that weapons of a single type was tested, Ie. uzi, raygun rifle or laser cannon.
This need to be completely redone using as many examples as possible, and present each main weapon system (pistols rifle, heavy, melee and APU) on separate graphs so each in dividual sub-type can be compared to the others.
Also I'd recommend not using skills set so that you reach 100% dmg as this is going to cause issues. A set skill amount will then give a better dmg/tl curve.
Of course this won't paint a true picture as people with a higher tl weapon will generally have higher sub-skill values.
i fail to see why a resicapp is balancing relevant at all, especially as not even the toughest class capped all resists. that just supports my point btw, as changing loads of unnecessary stuff is counterproductive for balancing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty Max
about that whining, when i read that again it still is whining. problem is many players of that class just didn't like pes and wanted them out of the game or saw the pe as noob class before choosing ones 'real' class and thus their arguments were extremely biased against pes while having nothing to back up their claims but the xbow which is hardly a reason to nerf a whole class. sadly the devs don't play their game and listened to the ones that cried loudest which lead to the exploding numbers of players you now can find (if you're lucky) when logging in.
I wasn't refering to the cap ...
i was - and i named it - referring to dippled skill curves. When skills at lower value had more effect then at higher values.
Same happened to weapon skills, or const i.e.
Well i fail to see why your opnion (your likings/opinion) are more valueble then the likings/opinion of "many players". Other then to have an excuse to ignore them.Quote:
about that whining, when i read that again it still is whining. problem is many players just didn't like it
i never experienced that with weapon skills, const has nothing to do with balancing and if you know that the best resist you can get is 114 you simply don't put more points into it and that value is high enough as to not be balancing relevant. only few bugs had any relevance to balance (eg the drugflash exploit), the others should simply be ignored in a balancing attempt and taken on later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty Max
the difference is that when i don't like sthing i simply don't play it whereas those people wanted to make a class they don't like unplayable, which they managed to a good extend. i had very interesting discussions on ts about this so i know that some ppls ultimate goal wasn't balancing but the exclusion of classes they felt didn't fit into the game from it. that is a huge difference from my personal affection to a class in that i don't want to force people to play the way i like. that's why 4 of the 6 changes i listed would affect the pe btw, though some are only targeted to specific incarnations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty Max
/edit
oh and plz quote correctly or don't quote at all. your little change gave the whole sentence quite a different meaning.
Well there was, there were several points whe you could invest another point and receive less output, on the other side there were some points where the damage output increased massively by a single point.Quote:
Originally Posted by yuuki
While the inconsistency in the skill didn't, this statement is still wrong.Quote:
const has nothing to do with balancing
The construction part of Neocron game has an impact on balance. The higher base stats on rares vs non-rares boosts the effect of any existing imbalance in the distribution of rares between the classes.
If it changes the skill distribution of whole classes, i would say that it is relevant.Quote:
and if you know that the best resist you can get is 114 you simply don't put more points into it and that value is high enough as to not be balancing relevant. only few bugs had any relevance to balance (eg the drugflash exploit), the others should simply be ignored in a balancing attempt and taken on later.
This were not all, rather a minority of those which wanted a nerf for some classes. I played and i am playing APU myself, and even i voted to nerf APUs. Not because i wanted the class i was playing to be unplayable. But for a better balance. I wouldn't call my vote as a whine for "my class is too strong"Quote:
the difference is that when i don't like sthing i simply don't play it whereas those people wanted to make a class they don't like unplayable
You can't allways only balance by boosting.
It's like an instable table
If you are cutting the longer legs again and again, there probably isn't much substance left when they all reached the same length. Often it is much better to just put something (i.e. a rubber foot) under one of the legs.
Granted, my error. Typed the wrong word, after i missed the end of the sentance in the c&p.Quote:
/edit
oh and plz quote correctly or don't quote at all. your little change gave the whole sentence quite a different meaning.
Like it ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorMike
Again, the game is fine as it is...
Minor problems are:
1. The pistols PE has no other choice than an xbow setup. this must be fixed, by boosting the libby. The libby deserves to go back to its first glory
2. There is a problem with nanites on a spy and thats that he cant essentially heal. Make a spy only psi heal as effective as the tl40 nanites heal is, or take nanites concentration out of nanite heal (a better approach), and the spy is balanced against other classes
3. Fix the dev stacks, they last way too long. And the WA stacks same...
4. On a recent duel with apus in NF, it seemed that the apu is not that easy to die, if played by a decent player. Recent tests in pp1 can confirm this as well. They are just not the overpowered units that once were, aka 105/min on a capped HL :p
yeah... if everything will get fixed, the game is fine and perfectly balanced! ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by jini
and pistol PE will be fine when the libby gets boosted!
well ok we wont see any slasher, judge or RolH PEs, but that doesnt matter, because libby, xbow and freeman are perfect.
Slasher is fine actually, did you ever tried it?
Rolh is almost out of reach from a PE w/o going into huge sacrifices.
Judge by own means, fix it... but
As long as they decide to boost WoC weapons everyone will go for the xbow.
If they dont boost WoC weapons, none will care spending time leveling, paying/finding the WoC disk, or using expensive WoC pas. Certainly, the game is not broken because the judge is useless right? Nor did the people left because the judge is a piece of s**t did they?
I also said that they need to fix only 3 things... it's not everything, it's -just- 3 things..
And I still can't use that megaload thingy, what is it you wanted to show to me?