*Searches the Like button* Hum well cannot find it, however I like that idea, but we have to dig through the code to have a look at how broken it is. We will put it on the todo list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faid
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*Searches the Like button* Hum well cannot find it, however I like that idea, but we have to dig through the code to have a look at how broken it is. We will put it on the todo list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faid
Sounds like a good idea, but I can already imagine ways to exploit it. Plus, it doesn't solve the root of the problem. Sometimes it is out of your control who you kill regardless of your pre-planning. The other day, I was bumrushed by a friendly (in a clan I consider friendly beyond the simple faction alignment) and then I had to make the decision to accept death or a huge SL hit.
That isn't good gameplay.
Many people prefer to take a SL hit over death, which makes it stupid easy to have a batch of 'kill me' characters with 100 sl in different factions just so you can set people up to go red. Clan wars won't fix that. People will still exploit the gaps in coverage and the argument will just morph into its new variant.
The system needs to be less convoluted, not more. More rules only makes it more difficult. Fewer, more defined and balanced rules, with respect to the fact that SL negotiation is stateless, will tighten up the process in more ways than one. Not to mention, the coding commitment and time to release are both significantly reduced.
/edit:
The current SL system applied to RL:
You are walking through a rough spot in NYC with many unsavory characters around you. Approaching you is a 15 year old kid with a mind to join a gang and a target in his eyes for initiation.
He gets closer and pulls a gun on you. Just before he pulls the trigger in front of his homeboys, you belch so loudly that you explode his head like Chuck Norris would.
That's self defense dawgs. You shouldn't take a 100 sl hit because he was 0/2 and had 100 soullight himself. It's not your fault the dumbass got the idea in his head, no matter how much Torg says stfu I'm here to impede real progress and make large posts asking for new support class shit because we're in the middle of a different initiative that isn't relevant to my interests.
Okay, so lets take a look at your example. You talk about the guy having high soul-light, and killing someone else.
You say the options are to die, or to kill them and accept a huge soul-light loss. So it's completely out of your ability to avoid the confrontation, or the killing, and get to a location which is safe, such as protected by police (cop bots) and I'll play into that because, well, you might not be the kind of individual who likes to run. Or perhaps you're not in a location that you can get to some assistance.
Doesn't the loss of soullight also apply to them?
so you want to change the rules (game mechanics) according to your style of playing. i just doubt that is going to happen. you want NC to be more like counter-strike, i want to to be less like counter-strike. you want the game to fit your ideas, i want the game to fit the ideas of many different people. including yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divide
I haven't played Counter Strike since before I played neocron. I don't yearn for CS in any way, nor do I have a desire to see the game become a respawnfest where you buy your weapons 3 seconds after you load in to the game. Quit putting extremist views on people other than yourself. Your perception of others is shallow and jaded by your own illusion of martyrdom.
saadow,
If a player has 100 sl and you have 10 sl, or maybe -5 sl, they know they are safe to attack with regard to their soullight. If a player with -5 sl kills an allied player, in an outskirt sector, with 100 sl because of a forced confrontation, the result would be something likely to the tune of -40 or lower which restricts use of GR's and is auto-aggro for most protective npc's. If a 100 sl player kills an allied -5 sl player, they will likely lose something between 5-10 and be perfectly safe. Do you honestly believe that to be good game play? A 100sl player can confront a -5sl and kill him probably 10-15 times before going negative, let alone red. A -5 would be -100sl himself after killing the 100sl 3 times.
Yes, actually that makes perfect sense to me, because A) The player with negative soullight has that amount for a reason. B) The person with one hundred soullight has that for another reason. We'll call them players A and B
If player B attacks player A, I would see their act as being a good samaritan. You're dealing with an individual who has aggregated negative karma for themselves through their actions, careless or not. This was immediately seen in a much more ruthless manner in the game Mortal Online. People abused this system to do something called blue blocking, but truly it was your own fault for hitting the blue player, if you weren't aware of your surroundings, and didn't take into account the -type- of area you were in, hitting that player was a death sentence, intentional or not. You learned quick not to fall for it.
Look, killing anyone should be an act of gravitas and weight, on one hand, killing a player with little or negative soullight is just that, it's killing a dangerous element that disregards the lives of other people. We call that a hero.
Killing someone when you have a lot of soullight, is not an action taken lightly. If you kill someone with a lot of soullight themselves, well, you just murdered someone who has shown significant worth to the world to be regarded as such. I don't think it's reasonable to consider even an accident as being an exception, If you can't control yourself and your environment in the battlefield, why should you be on the battlefield at all? The same thing with a vehicle. If you lose control of your vehicle and hit a pedestrian, you're at fault: you lost control of the vehicle.
So, basically if you have low soullight, you should expect that your actions will come back and haunt you. Accidents or not. If you have high soullight, you've garnered a significant karmic balance in your favor that if you kill someone who has very little soullight, the impact is minimal to you. That certainly makes perfect sense to me.
I'm gonna side with Divide when it comes to SL hits you get when you are attack by others. It can be quite difficult to get away from attacks in certain areas, and for certain classes. So if you travel outside safe zones without an LE, you would have to make the decision that Divide talks about fairly regularly. I do however realise that it will be difficult to implement any check to this. However, the idea that a model citizen can just go on a rampage to kill non-model citisens is absurd. They should probably be punished even more, since their bloodlust would be all the more shocking to society, lowering their status quickly. And therefore their loss of soullight should be even bigger. From a RP standpoint at least, which seems to be what you are arguing from.
I see the potential SL hits as somewhat discouraging PvP outside opfighting. For many of the PvPers who seeks smaller fights, like in Pepper park, there just aren't enough people in enemy factions to feed the bloodlust. So the current numbers on the server make the faction system as it is unfriendly to small scale PvP. I am one of those who feel factions should atter more, and I will very rarely kill allied faction members without provocation. And I think there should be a penalty to friendly fire, though maybe not as harsh as it is at the moment. I mean, hours and hours of missions for soullight can be canceled out in minutes. The penalty is disproportionate. However, if people spread out more when it comes to factions, as well as some factions acquiring some more enemies, some of this would be sorted. Also, small scale PvPers should move to the more criminal/non-establishment faction, since they tend to have more enemies. So some of this can be fixxed by the population itself.
Another problem with the SL system is that it tends to be unfair to certain classes, such as tank, who can neither hack the belts their enemies drop if they want any aim worth speaking of, or stealth to retrieve their belts. Spies however, even with the now often worked true sight sanctum, have it much easier. Spies for that matter can also just stealth away from allied attacks, getting them out of the problem Divide mentioned. PEs to a lesser extent.
The pay extra for no SI upon death idea I see as difficult as well, as it would favour the defending clan in Op-fights. Where is the need for resurrection when you can just bounce back free of SI in the underground. Even if an implant or 2 fell out, the clan could just have a poker there, sorting people out so fast you would hardly notice they were gone in the first place. The attacking clan however, would be reliant on a poker in plaza 1, then having to wait off SI as they gr to the genrep closest to the fight, and then run to the fight. Massive difference, and massive advantage.
I also think there should be an automatic recovery of soullight, after all, last years sins are easily forgotten in the dog eat dog-world of Neocron. Wouldn't it be natural that someone with low sl who stops doing bad things will drop off the NCPD radar? I mean, I wouldn't want the gain to go any higher than say -16 or -20, but enough to drop you off the ncpd list.
Oh well, that's all for now, hope the game is back up =)
So what you are saying is, it is not only ok, but expected that a fully capped 100 SL player should kill the 0/2 noobs that are created with 10 SL because it is low?Quote:
Originally Posted by saadow
Without trying to come off as a complete ass-- Haven't you been playing this game for about 3-4 weeks in total now? Do you have a character with an LE out? Have you PVP'd at all? What is your depth of personal experience with PVP, and the soullight system in Neocron?
You may consider that individual to be a good samaritan, but the SL system clearly doesn't.Quote:
If player B attacks player A, I would see their act as being a good samaritan. You're dealing with an individual who has aggregated negative karma for themselves through their actions, careless or not.
Again, why is it that the SL system punishes the 100 SL player for killing the allied -5 SL player if they are a hero?Quote:
Look, killing anyone should be an act of gravitas and weight, on one hand, killing a player with little or negative soullight is just that, it's killing a dangerous element that disregards the lives of other people. We call that a hero.
I appreciate your thoughtful comments here, but I'm afraid your short tenure doesn't lend you much, if any, expertise or ethos.
now, for real, Divide: what you are lobbying for is easier PvP, fighting with a smaller danger of penalties. fine. i believe everybody is ok with the idea as such. and NC has a lot of battle areas available, namely all outpost zones. its just, youd appreciate fighting within city limits, too. even among friendlies. hm, why not. the tiny problem here is: how would you want to regulate non-consentual PvP? Imagine a situation where i'm a capped tank, while youre a half-baked allied or neutral un-LEd PE, we meet in pepper park, and bang, youre dead. What penalties would you like to confront me with, for that act of senseless violence? how would you balance that? would you rather get rid of SL and have everyone keep the LE in until woc'ed? are you interested in the whole situation, or is your individual fun at PvP all you care of? please tell us.
What I'm lobbying for is multi-fold:
1- Acknowledgement that the existing SL system is plagued with many, many flaws.
2- Fleshing out the flaws, one-by-one, and determining what the root of the flaw is.
3- Actions that make sense to the community and devs to address each of the identified flaws in the game's best interest.
4- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GGL0qGk5lA I'm the defendant, you're the prosecutor, SL is drunk duo being questioned. Maybe this should have been my first and only comment.
you chose not to discuss but keep making various claims. a part of your rights as a free citizen, i suppose. good thing i never signed any paper so i'd have to take any of that serious. my conclusion: you got an idea, and cling to it, ignoring whatever else there may be. i believe this will work pretty good in both directions.
I'm not prepared to launch an entire revamp of the SL system by myself at this point. It's not that easy as you well know. Solving a problem is more about understanding the issue than blindly setting forth any type of change, which you both seem to think I want, and expect of me.
I'm a 16 soullight noob. I've never taken out my LE. The LE is very well explained in the beginning of the game in the MC5 area, it's not entirely easy to get out of MC5, without either knowing what's going on, or having previous knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divide
If you're a noob, or savage murderer, with 10 soullight without an LE in, you made that choice, no matter what.
You put yourself in that system, you exposed yourself to that responsibility. Nobody forced you to remove your LE, and I'm sure if for some reason it was forced, either game bug or other serious problem, then I'm certain you could go to GM's and staff for help.
Your entire example is just not possible unless a new player was tricked into removing it--which hey, if they're new and still at a lower level, they can put it back in--or a person who knowingly removed the LE to enter this system of checks and balances.
Nobody needs to be in a clan, you get plenty of support from your faction and fellow faction members, if that's any reason to remove your LE, the only reason to join a clan is the expectation of getting involved with PVP, as I've never seen any clan focused strictly on RP and being active, which would likely be the only reason I ever remove my LE. (Spoiler, I'm not removing my LE. Period, end of sentence.)
And really, all your closing statement above was directed to me as Ad Hominem. You're considering my entire argument invalid because of my experience with PVP. The conversation encompasses all players of all skill levels, because everyone is going to have to deal with what you are actively looking to change.
I'm considering your entire understanding of the soullight system, PVP, and Neocron in general to be so shallow at this point in time (3-4 wks in) that your authority on such subjects is non-existent. Your contribution is appreciated nonetheless.Quote:
Originally Posted by saadow
This is not how ad hominems work. Refuting a persons qualification on a topic by identifying inappropriate expertise is not an baseless insult. Its simply telling how it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by saadow
However, since there is no set entry level to this discussion and any such would undoubtedly lead to a circlejerk conversation...
To remind you: be kind and polite to each other! A fresh look on things is always good and very much appreciated. Sometimes the more you get used to something, the longer you had to deal with it, the easier it is to miss some of the shortcomings of the system which new players might stumble across.
If the community wants to take the initiative and work out together a complete and fleshed out proposal, then start to do so :)
Either way, the upcoming content patch (the one following the bugfix patch on wednesday) will finally deliver some long overdue stuff :)
Saadow, while articulate, intelligent, and an obvious excellent new member to the community, has no skin in this game now, or plans to in the future. His contributions, while valued, only affect people who remove their LE, something he has declared he will never do.
If someone was never going to ride a motorcycle, would you take recommendations from them as you were designing it? Why would that person even care to contribute in the first place?
As for the community review of the SL system, I would love to see that take place and may have some time to facilitate.
Fairly Divide, I certainly would. Were I in the role of design, I would want an opinion from the individual without any intention to ride a motorcycle, because my goal as a designer is to design something for as broad of an audience as possible, within the confines of the scope of the design itself. If I wanted to design a motorcycle, I would want my motorcycle to be so good and enticing, that someone who had no intention of riding it, would reconsider their position.
Now you brought up an interesting question, why would that person want to contribute? Were I looking for opinions, and found someone disinterested in riding a motorcycle, my approach would be to ask them why they aren't interested in riding a motorcycle, their opinion could be something to consider in the scope of design.
You'll have outliers, individuals with no interest what-so-ever with riding a motorcycle for example. They still may have interesting ideas, worth listening to if they're willing to provide them. So lets look back at PVP? I had a conversation with some people after hours on the IRC server, and I had said, the only thing I'd really consider removing my LE for would be fighting off players in hacknet, it's the environment I care about in my interests of the game. I feel you could empathize with that, as you're a player interested in fighting other players. You have a vested interest then in that system, like I have one in the hacknet system. The two could potentially intersect, especially if we develop more systems that appeal to broader player-base and bring more individuals into the game.
However, I'm also a roleplayer, and any decision that affects the soullight system, the ease of playerkilling, and the locations where playerkilling occurs, will affect me as a character and as a player. If I see violence in the street, I'm going to react, in a broad range of manners. Example: I was exploring the outzone--something I totally plan on writing a post about--and down several levels in, a hostile, high-level NPC began to attack me. I took cover, and I played the scenario out in my head. Finally, I took the initiative and fought back. This kind of scenario is not unsimilar to what might happen in PVP, except the AI and human intelligence are vastly different things. Now, not being interested in player killing, scenarios where players are gunning down each other in the city regions because it were easier, or the soullight system were more forgiving, I'd have to react to that kind of situation. I don't want that to be easier though. I see the amount of copbot presence in these areas and feel that it would be very difficult for someone to not be seen or known considering the level of surveillance technology. I could understand if perhaps in outskirt sectors if the loss in general were more forgiving, because you'd expect violent crime there. I feel that the few who benefit from the situation would be greatly outweighed by the people who would use the system just to make for violence wherever they go.
Perhaps I should have asked a question from a realm I am a bit more knowledgeable as to set the proper scope. I just about asked the question before realizing- who cares.
Not every designer creates something for a broad audience. Some designers create things for a very small audience with very specific needs. They focus on the needs of those whom commissioned them to ensure their resulting product is the proper fit.
Of course, everyone's desire, in the end, is to bring new blood in to the game. Players need new players as much as the game needs new players as much as the devs need new players.
On that note-
Devs know, as the community does, that there are a large collection of players at bay with this game who are patiently waiting for the right time. SL is a factor, and they are clued in.
This game has significant work due to deliver a proper experience which draws a broad player base in. This goes well beyond the soullight system, which would have to be part of the rework no matter how you slice the cake. Improving the systems you have for the players you have is a strong investment in your foundation while you are planning your future.
As an individual with your LE permanently installed, you have no personal stake in the soullight system as we are discussing it. As an individual who identifies themselves as a role player, you have now have immunity in argument. It is unfortunate that the senseless slaying of players in zones you could find yourself in may create such a broad range of reactions that, who knows, you may actually get up and slap yo momma if it gets so bad. That is an unfortunate affliction. It is your gameplay experience, and ours shouldn't impact it in any way at all. Unless you want it to.
On the other hand, think of all of the post-worthy content if you took that stupid thing out of your head and played the other 50% of the game. Talk to Dribble Joy, he runs an RP clan called The Skulls- unless memory fails or something has changed.
btw@Alduin: We're looking forward to these patches. Keep em' comin' :)
Well, I'll fairly devils advocate against myself, as you've taken a step in my direction, I can at the very least do the same for you. I'm sure there are times, just like when the high-level NPC and I had our run-in, and it developed story, that story can develop from conflict with other players as well. However, things can be lost, irreplaceable or difficult to replace belongings can be lost in these conflicts. People can abuse this system and do it with the purposeful intent to damage my enjoyment of this game. I'm not interested in exposing myself to those people, I'm here to have fun, and the few times where combat could be a viable situation to involve myself in, I see combat as being a clumsy arms race. If you aren't a combat-perfect character, your options for viability in a situation against people who eat-breathe-sleep this situation are just not viable. You'd get squashed. I've seen people also abuse the combat system.
What I like is that we've come to a point of agreement, so if I take a step forward, I'll say this: If I could reinstall my LE after level */30, I'd have no reason -not- to take part in the occasional fight if the storyline took it up to bat. Fairly, I feel that should also mean clans should have an option to allow players with an LE chip if they so chose to, as a setting they can change at will, so long as that's a feasible feature for management to include.
So what we have here is a combination of optimal systems, a person can chose when and where they want to expose themselves to murder, people who already made that election gain the ability to go back on their decision, they could stop fighting for a while if they want to socialize, or run quests without risk of injury or loss. Players can avoid losing vital equipment if they're out questing, unless they chose to for the interest of fighting again, and then any improvements to the soullight system would truly be for anybody, opening the floor up again and returning us back to the topic.
I at that point, can share your frustration with someone abusing the soullight system to completely ruin another players experience, just like I wouldn't want mine ruined by taking out my chip and being completely vulnerable to others whims. Because even if I put my chip back in, had I killed someone already and went into such a steep decline in soullight, regaining it is very very difficult!
Edit: same here, Alduin! Though off topic, I can't wait to see the stuff you guys do!