careful. people might think you have a sense of humour bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
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careful. people might think you have a sense of humour bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
You cant just take zoneline PVP as basis for your analysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
What about the lone sniper for example, is he supposed to walk around in plane sight while looking for prey?
The spy needs stealth because he has low resists and for now nanites suck and psi shields are kinda useless.
How do you plan to compensate for that?
If you only allow 10 sec stealth then you can remove it altogether.
How did people deal with stealthers all these years and why is this suddenly such an issue?
Jack the Music Man! I'm afraid you're missing the sarcasm on William's post. I don't think you should take what he said too seriously :)Quote:
Originally Posted by J@ck on Cr@ck
Blackmaze is partially correct. Only the last line of my post was sarcasm. Yes you can argue all you want that the Spy needs stealth. I do not think they do. I had a spy before stealth was invented and held a good account of myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by J@ck on Cr@ck
The APU is akin to a spy and he doesnt have stealth. How do you plan to compensate for that? I am playing devils advocate.
Removing stealth altogether instead of having it capped at 10 seconds is a good way of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Psi shields are not useless but they do need to be addressed. Nannites need to make the spy have good solid resists (whilst they're active). These are external issues to the subject at hand however and should be disregarded when discussing stealth in my opinion. They ARE issues nonetheless and you are right to point them out. However keeping stealth as a band aid (plaster in english) to shore up these weaknesses is, in my mind, not a viable solution.
I would rather see these things fixed and provide a more accurate and deadly combination of nannite use and stealth tool use for the average combat spy to make himself useful.
The obliterator is useful for its 90 second reconnaissance and scouting role but in my opinion stealth 2 and 3 need to go. All they do is give the spy chance to get away and heal up. They are not used for their intended purpose - reconnaissance.
They are used to get out of jail free.
Ascension (the only APU I have seen actively playing and an experienced player) doesnt whine that his class needs stealth even though they have been shafted all over the place by the changes in 2.2. I do not see why spies should need it either.
Stealth to me should provide a breathing space, not be a fight winner.
I like to disagree. I use Stealth 2 at the moment for reconnaissance. Might also use Stealth 3. I will always try to adapt my stealth time to the situation, and Stealthtime of Stealth 1 is very often too short, whereas all other Stealth times might in many situation be too long. Especially the Obliterator suffers from that, and it must always be considered that stealth cannot be exited easily. There sadly are too many situations where you have to wait for your stealth to count out quite some time before you start the next one, only that you can take another step, because you know you need longer to run by a few enemies AND find a hiding spot they cannot see at the moment. Cause when they see you only once, stealth is useless against NPCs.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
If I remeber right, on Mars I mainly used Obliterator for two things:
1) Speak Propaganda in the Plaza 2 and annoying all those that came to kill me. (DoY Times)
2) Infiltrate HQs and other safezones, as you cannot use the stealth tool a second time in them.
All other situations went better with lesser stealth tools. And mostly I used Stealth for reconnaissence, not for battle.
Some one mentioned something about getting hit with something like a drug flash when you use stealth repeatedly.
What if using stealth gave you some kind of radiation exposure that stayed in your body for a certain amount of time.
If you re-stealth before it the radiation wears off the radiation concentration is then increased/doubled (think nanites).
Doing that for the third time with for example a Stealth Tool 2 will result in the radiation concentration level being high enough for you to become crippled (or maybe just like a drug flash). You'll still be stealthed but severely handicapped.
The reason I'm suggesting something like this because you can easily change the level /amount of radiation given by each stealth tool.
Also you can easily set how long the radiation stays in your body. Higher tool makes it stay longer?
To me this would hopefully allow things like the obilitorator to be used for reconnaissance, as you can plan to wait out the radiation somewhere.
While people spamming it in combat will soon regret it.
To me the hardest to balance would be the PE stealth tool, as it forces you to spam it due to its pathetic duration in order to make it of any use. Maybe if it took 5 uses within the time period the radiation lasts for that would be OK, but I'm not sure, just as I'm unsure how you would calculate the duration the radiation stays for. Possibly three times the duration of the stealth tool you're using.
E.g. if you're using a 10 second stealth then you have radiation for 30 seconds (remember 10 of those seconds would be while you're stealthed)
Scale this up you get the obilitorator.
90 second stealth means you would be radiated for 270 seconds, or 180 seconds after the stealth ends.
There are already many ways ingame to combat stealthing. Just because YOU can't do it on your ONE character doesn't mean it needs fixed. (You, in a general sense)
I totally agree with strife. There are many ways to get a spy down when he uses stealth. And as a Spy you're mostly absolute helpless against that, you simply die. How about making stealth stronger, to compensate for this? Maybe add some sort of additional shielding when stealthed?
Ok, the last part was just kidding, but I really think stealth is good the way it is.
Tbh, I'm largely fine with it as it is though some people do seem to spam if if they take any damage what so ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grogor
I still think PE's need another stealth tool that lasts about 10 seconds to be fair.
Anyhow, if stealth had to be changed I've given a suggestion as to a possible way to do it above.
Stealth is for cowards. Not every class has a way to fight it so no this is not a viable solution in my mind.
I like the idea of stealth giving a radiation damage tick though. That would be good. Get a radiation stack every second you're in stealth that would be smart.
Why go through such troubles when you could simply die for activating stealth ...Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
I like that idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by J@ck on Cr@ck
Because if you weren't spamming stealth/stealth whoring the radiation damage would be relatively negligible.Quote:
Originally Posted by J@ck on Cr@ck
Especially compared to a Cursed Soul to the face!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Netphreak
This.
I am assuming that you are talking about 1 on 1 situations and random PVP and not about OP figths since "Not every class has a way to fight it so no this is not a viable solution in my mind." is no valid argument during OP fights. Plasma weapons for example are able to hit people while stealthed. Then there are AOE weapons, winding argument comes to mind, which can "mark" spies and make them visible for everybody. And of course there is the true sight sanctum, USE IT!Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
As for 1 on 1 situations ...
I fail to see how these radiation stacks would enable, say a rifle PE (any class really) to kill a spy in 1 on 1 situations. I believe all these radiation stacks would achieve is discourage PVP, because spies would simply stealth sooner than they do now or they just stealth and run away.
I get the feeling people are upset about the spies healing up during stealth, but you should keep in mind that spies cant use nanites during stealth and usually you dont have the time to inject yourself before stealthing when you are in the process of being killed. Even if nanites are still running while stealthing their duration is very short. All this means is that the person not stealthing can heal up even better than the spy.
You could simply disable health regeneration during stealth, but again this would discourage PVP.
None of that will discourage pvp. If the spy can die while he is in stealth then that is a good thing. If he has to run the risk of dying by his own hand then that too is a good thing. It will stop all these stealth as soon as you get hit wannabe spies.
My first char was a spy. I took him to op fights when there were only a handful of good spies playing NC. I went to fights before stealth and I died as much as I killed. It was a better time back then.
It wouldnt discourage pvp it would make the spy think about his fight and whether he could beat the opponent or not, not when would he need to hit the stealth and get the fuck out of the way before the other guy had a chance to retaliate.
P.s healing rate? huh? What class can heal faster than a spy? (besides a ppu) Spy can use the heal tool or the heal spell just the same as the PE. Tank can only use tools. Healing rates are pretty similar across the board tbh. Damage output whilst not receiving too much by return is where the spy wins. He wins a war of attrition more or less every time vs another class. Because of his stealth.
This is why the stealth needs to have a penalty. A radiation stack OR your idea of no heal while in stealth are both valid ideas. The spy needs a penalty of some form on his stealth. It should not be used to carry on the fight if the other class doesnt have it. That is what makes it OP.
In reference to your original question no not every class has a way to combat stealth. Yes tanks have another gun they can bring, PPUs have TSS yeah also true. APU has a barrel which might catch the spy if he is incredibly stupid. HC Pe might catch him with a fire stack sure. So ok HC and PPU can find the spy - you mostly find those at op fights. So that means you "rely" on those guys to catch the spy out.
No this is not a valid solution. Pistol PE has no way to fight the stealth (No DoT from the Wyatt Earp any more), nor do APUs (No DoT any more from anything visible - Fire Apoc is all burst now I believe). Damage boost is not a viable option as it is too slow for the PE to cast and only the holy one is any good for lighting them up due to RoF and range.
Rifle PE has nothing to fight it that I can honestly think of. Other spies have nothing to fight stealth barring their own stealth so no I do not know what other stuff you can use.
You cannot balance pvp based on situations either. It has to be balanced 1v1 first in my mind. If you try to start to think of every single combination of chars and balance them all then you will be here into the next decade tbh.
It would be nice if there was some sort of handicap for stealth like a drug flash when they come out equal to using 1 drug and perhaps a lower time of use, it might be unpopular to say but spies can compete in fights and even in 1v1 thanks to their speed and damage so it is a bit ridiculous that they also have a free get out of jail free card with no downside, hell I'd even take a slight buff to spies to have something like this if people really think spies would be so useless without a never die ability.
People might be trying to say *oh but you can just aoe and plasma* and to that I answer have you ever tried killing a stealth with plasma... IF you slowed them and you aren't slow and you are right up next to them when they stealth yes you might do it, most of the time you wont though, as for aoe.... yes right after a fight where I might be on low hp all I want to do is spam mindless aoe around me in hopes of hitting somebody that could have gone in any direction that sounds like a great plan!
As for people saying a spy without stealth is a worse version of apus spys have the speed advantage, I've never seen a apu move faster than a spy and spys have the smallest hit box, a further advantage AND they have nanites with which they can get great resist (something people tend to ignore for some reason).
So when you combine all this together at the very least reducing the stealth time so its breathing room as was said instead of *hah to slow* tool is the least that should be done, that or a nerf to spies so they really need a get out of jail free card they can use as much as they like with no downsides.
You choose spies, or else I'd like apus and tanks to have a shield reducing outgoing and incomg damage by 100% for 60s so we also have a free escape tool, granted it wouldn't be quite so handy cos you could still track us but it would be balanced out by the potential suicide aoe spam not working against it.
i like the OP idea, but tbh i like it more the way it is now.