LE & Vehicle Protection

I love it lol. Run away or get your vehicle blown up, yeah that sounds fair. Le'd gunner in a rhino kills a grim, UN-LE'd tank with a creed stands over the corpse. LE'd rhino cannot loot their kill because they have to run away from the UN-LE'd guy stealing their loot because thats his only choice. Yeah that sounds so fair.

Take out your LE and fight back? While leveling noob chars? Against capped pvp ready characters? Yeah that also sounds fair.

You wont get people to take their LE's out, you'll get them pissed off because their rhino's and every other vehicle they own keeps getting blown up and they have no way to stop it (besides running away) People will just leave because of this.

You know, I kinda breezed through reading this so I am sorry if I am addressing this in another light and over looked someone else's idea as I see this might be a compromise.

Here is my idea: Instead of opening a new can of worms here with the endless complaints this will bring lets go another route. If we have so much issues with LE'd players blocking etc etc, make it so that in order to use a vehicle you need to be un-LE'd unless it is a non combat vehicle such as Quad etc etc. I think this is very fair idea in regards to complaints I saw as if you are going to level through rhino or other vehicles you need to be a decent level already and in which case you level extremely fast anyways.

Also, I feel that the damage a player can do to vehicles such as the rhino is a joke, if your going to do this route to vehicles regardless, you need to make them suffer FAR less damage from guns such as pistols, rifles, melee, etc etc. Why have guns such as Anti-Vehicle Launchers if they do same amount of damage or less than weapons that I mentioned up above. Maybe I am being to picky about this, but if we are going to fix the LE'd vehicles (rhino) issue then all the issues need to be addressed at once, so there is no BS about well you did this but not this and the damage normal weapons do to vehicles is complete BS as everyone knows it.

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Originally Posted by Faid

Take out your LE and fight back? While leveling noob chars? Against capped pvp ready characters? Yeah that also sounds fair.

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That sounds so wrong.

So you are levelling noob chars by killing 120/120 mobs without being able to get attacked... Don't you even partially think that could be wrong in some way?

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Originally Posted by Faid

I love it lol. Run away or get your vehicle blown up, yeah that sounds fair.

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Well that's how it is for an un-le'd driver in that situation as well.
As I said the bigger issue is that it is so easy for a vehicle to be destroyed by common firearms in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Faid

Le'd gunner in a rhino kills a grim, UN-LE'd tank with a creed stands over the corpse. LE'd rhino cannot loot their kill because they have to run away from the UN-LE'd guy stealing their loot because thats his only choice. Yeah that sounds so fair.

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Most mobs have a larger hit box than a player does.

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Originally Posted by Faid

Take out your LE and fight back? While leveling noob chars? Against capped pvp ready characters? Yeah that also sounds fair.

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Yes, we all used to level with no LE's in, why does it have to be so different now?
Also, there are always players/characters out there that will be better equiped/skilled than you at any given point whether leveling or capped.

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Originally Posted by Faid

You wont get people to take their LE's out, you'll get them pissed off because their rhino's and every other vehicle they own keeps getting blown up and they have no way to stop it (besides running away) People will just leave because of this.

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Or they will appreciate this isn't some easy mode care bear game, and that you have to be aware of your surroundings at all time and allies can be/are invaluable.

Well I give up, obviously some of you want to be able to blow up LE'd vehicles and you want to force LE'd people leveling their chars to take out their LE's. It appears this is what the DEVs want as well so fuck it. I'll be the first one to say I told you so when this shit-storm hits. I thought the point of moving forward with the development of Neocron was to make the game better, guess I was mistaken.

Enjoy blowing up every LE'd vehicle you see for fun, I know I will...

Don't let them discourage you Faid, the 'hurr I hate carebears' argument is played out, and the empty can does indeed rattle the loudest..

I just wanted to add one last comparison example to all this, that I would like people to -seriously- consider for a moment before discussing or deciding further on this subject:

Scenario this decision seems at least partially based on: One of a handful of trolls parks a vehicle on a mob someone just killed, and blocks it from being looted. Final outcome? Well, there's an infinite number of every mob in the game, now isn't there? Likely some bickering will ensue, but in the end both will move on without any serious damage being done to either party beyond their egos.

Scenario that will occur after the 'solution': Now say the same troll is out in the wasteland and finds someone driving by, and decides to continue his legacy of being a jackass - they attack and probably destroy the passerby's vehicle, for reasons only someone like that can comprehend, and probably succeeds because lets face it, if they were out there looking to stir up trouble doing this, they're prepared enough to kill anyone's stuff they decide to target. Final outcome? An expensive piece of equipment is destroyed irreovocably and someone ends up losing up to or even exceeding $250,000 ingame money that they had spent on it in a matter of minutes. Not to the incredibly dangerous monsters roaming the wastelands who are indeed still QUITE A VALID THREAT TO EVEN A RHINO, but to one troll who put it upon himself to just destroy a serious investment of a fellow player 'just for the lulz.'

I hope you all take the time to let that sink in. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Faid

Enjoy blowing up every LE'd vehicle you see for fun, I know I will...

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Get over yourself.

You have moaned in every post. Clearly people are bored of it. Come up with some suggestions to fix it instead of making another whiney post dude. You used to be so much cooler than this. These days you just dont sound like the same person.

Solanox cool avatar but if you want to be taken seriously please avoid the use of words like trolls etc and the seemingly obligatory flammable terminology.

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Originally Posted by William Antrim

You have moaned in every post. Clearly people are bored of it. Come up with some suggestions to fix it instead of making another whiney post dude. You used to be so much cooler than this. These days you just dont sound like the same person..

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Same mobbing procedure as every year, "James". It's easy to defame other opinions as whine posts, but it's a bad style.

As Faid said:

1. Some people here (pro faction) want to blow up every vehicle. No hint/ no need for RP or story setting, simply "it's a harsh world. isn't it ?".

2. Some people want to force player to take out the LE.

3. People won't - they will count the blown up vehicles -. and leave the game.

If it is the Dev's intention to make better game mechanics - this is no good try.

You want substancial suggestions ? Nothing easier like this. How is that:

We keep nearly everything like it is actually or like it was: LE'd driven vehicles cannot attack other player/Vecs and cannot be attacked by other player /Vecs.

It is that simple. Deal the non-ROC matching behaviour like blocking locations/ loot otherwise/ more intelligent.

Reed

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Originally Posted by DR REED

Same mobbing procedure as every year, "James". It's easy to defame other opinions as whine posts, but it's a bad style.

As Faid said:

1. Some people here (pro faction) want to blow up every vehicle. No hint/ no need for RP or story setting, simply "it's a harsh world. isn't it ?".

2. Some people want to force player to take out the LE.

3. People won't - they will count the blown up vehicles -. and leave the game.

If it is the Dev's intention to make better game mechanics - this is no good try.

You want substancial suggestions ? Nothing easier like this. How is that:

We keep nearly everything like it is actually or like it was: LE'd driven vehicles cannot attack other player/Vecs and cannot be attacked by other player /Vecs.

It is that simple. Deal the non-ROC matching behaviour like blocking locations/ loot otherwise/ more intelligent.

Reed

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For instance:

Runners have the option to spawn either an LEd or non LEd version of a vehicle, regardless of their own status. Only LEd players
can get inside LEd vehicles, and LEd vehicles can be clipped through at will (so no blocking). Anyone can get inside a non LE vehicle, but it will still be destroy-able (even if an LEd player owns it, is riding in it, or driving) and LEd players may not gun it.

This would seem like a fix to all of the vehicle abuse problems without opening up people to griefing.

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Originally Posted by Netphreak

Well that's how it is for an un-le'd driver in that situation as well.
As I said the bigger issue is that it is so easy for a vehicle to be destroyed by common firearms in the first place.

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It's not the same at all. An Un-LEd player can simply shoot the LE player standing on the corpse.

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Originally Posted by Netphreak

Most mobs have a larger hit box than a player does.

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It's not about hitbox sizes. A Player could shoot the thino to death before it can loot and get away.

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Originally Posted by Netphreak

Yes, we all used to level with no LE's in, why does it have to be so different now?
Also, there are always players/characters out there that will be better equiped/skilled than you at any given point whether leveling or capped.

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It's different now, because now a huge % of the population are old players who have done everything and are happy running around ganking. Combine that with the fact that levelling areas are so condensed now that you will rarely be alone in one of them, someone will start abusing people with this

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Originally Posted by Netphreak

Or they will appreciate this isn't some easy mode care bear game, and that you have to be aware of your surroundings at all time and allies can be/are invaluable.

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It's more likely they will simply leave, especially when anyone wanting to level (kind the idea of the game) gets repeatedly ganked by "pr0s" that already have their capped characters and are running around bored.

The term carebears gets thrown around way too much nowadays. It's utterly ludicrous, and most people that use it are just as bad as people that get called it just on the opposite end of the scale. People want to play a game to have fun. Most of the fun is endgame. Most people do not have 90% of their time free to play, and thus a need for protecting people until they are into the fun portion of the game exists. This is the LE. It's not supposed to be a mechanic by which players play forever, it's supposed to be there to stop jackasses getting easy kills through boredom at the expense of server population. There is a lower limit. They will not continue running this game if noone is playing it.

Honestly I'm not going to argue about this change here. I'm going to simply destroy every vehicle I see once this change is deployed.

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Originally Posted by Lucas Kell

It's not the same at all. An Un-LEd player can simply shoot the LE player standing on the corpse.

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Wait, what? Non-Le'd players can't shoot LE'd players. Please clarify.

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Originally Posted by Lucas Kell

Honestly I'm not going to argue about this change here. I'm going to simply destroy every vehicle I see once this change is deployed.

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Y'know what? Faid said this too, and I can't respect saying "Well I think it's a problem and *even if it turns out to not be* I will make it one." That's like saying "I'm going to protest gun laws by shooting up a schoolyard." it's protest via terrorism and it's bad form.

So, griefers are assholes and you don't want griefers on your server? So you protest rule changes by griefing? Um, what? Explain that again. Non-Le'd players don't have to be pricks and rules that allow for bad behavior don't equate to bad behavior. That's conflation.

I also think it's important to consider that these aren't "mounts" this is not WoW, the rules can be different. Stop comparing this game to other, more recent western mmos. The very potential of Neocron is its divergence from that paradigm and adherence to the 'virtual world' ideal.

Finally, I'd like to close with my usual notation that there was a time when the LE didn't work in the wasteland *at all* let alone as extended to your vehicle. Many, many (like most) PvE/PvP mmos have "0 security" or "lawless" areas where players have no expectation of safety. This was clearly the intention for the Wasteland and Outzone areas in this game, and LE protection for players and vehicles didn't come until later, corrupting that ideal.

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Originally Posted by Dope

Wait, what? Non-Le'd players can't shoot LE'd players. Please clarify.

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Well if an LE player sits on a mob with a Rhino, the un-LE player will simply be able to shoot him... So yes, a Non-LE player will be able to shoot an LE player.
Obviously out of a rhino the un-LE can just drive over and loot.

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Originally Posted by Dope

Y'know what? Faid said this too, and I can't respect saying "Well I think it's a problem and *even if it turns out to not be* I will make it one." That's like saying "I'm going to protest gun laws by shooting up a schoolyard." it's protest via terrorism and it's bad form.

So, griefers are assholes and you don't want griefers on your server? So you protest rule changes by griefing? Um, what? Explain that again. Non-Le'd players don't have to be pricks and rules that allow for bad behavior don't equate to bad behavior. That's conflation.

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The point here is that things said on this forum don't amount to much. The only thing that seems to amount to anything is when people in game start complaining a lot. So the only method of arguing against this is through taking action to cause those complaints.

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Originally Posted by Dope

I also think it's important to consider that these aren't "mounts" this is not WoW, the rules can be different. Stop comparing this game to other, more recent western mmos. The very potential of Neocron is its divergence from that paradigm and adherence to the 'virtual world' ideal.

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Noones comparing these to mounts. Just if you are going to let LE players get griefed without being able to fight back, you should simply remove the ability for LE players to drive vehicles. The way this is being put in simply opens a path to grief with no ability to fight back. And with how badly the features of this game are documented, new players wont understand this can happen until they have already lost a vehicle.

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Originally Posted by Dope

Finally, I'd like to close with my usual notation that there was a time when the LE didn't work in the wasteland *at all* let alone as extended to your vehicle. Many, many (like most) PvE/PvP mmos have "0 security" or "lawless" areas where players have no expectation of safety. This was clearly the intention for the Wasteland and Outzone areas in this game, and LE protection for players and vehicles didn't come until later, corrupting that ideal.

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That's great, but the game isn't the same as it used to be. Back then, the population was nicely mixed. Now the population has a high level of experienced players with nothing better to do than grief.

What I meant by mounts was "achieve them once, have them forever." They decay, like everything else in this game world.

And I honestly get what the fear is, I'd even be OK with restricting vehicles to non-LE'd players, but I think that's unnecessary overkill, some peeps are still going to be willing to risk it I guarantee.

To me, if it's clearly messaged that "all vehicles are subject to player attack" then it seems perfectly fair doesn't it? No privilege is being given either way, the only issue here is that a runner needs to be exposed to attack (i.e. pull an LE) if they want to attack another, and if all vehicles are subject to attack, that means runners will have more opportunities to want to shoot at another runner (i.e. they feel that their vehicle is threatened.)

It's not really as condescending as it sounds to say "you can leave, or pull the LE" because, to me, those with LE's in have chosen to limit their options in order to be protected from arbitrary PvP. I think it supports the ideal Neocron environment perfectly.

Why not do a brainport discussion on modifying loot rights if the LE VHC sitting on top of a corpse is the issue? Is it hard to code proper loot rights for whoever tags the mob first vs. who does the most damage? Don't other MMOs do this?

If loot rights wasn't an issue then you could propose the LE vs. Non-LEd VHC version or perhaps if the driver is LE everyone in the VHC becomes LE?

Why not put a temporary vendor in place with reduced prices rhinos or make them cheaper to construct temporarily until a better alternative is put in place?

As it stands an LEd vehicle being able to destroy an un-LEd is ridiculous, and if we're talking about griefing it'd be perfectly plausible for that to happen now LE->non-LE (as has happened multiple times to myself). Since Titan i'd say i've seen the game mechanics abused in such a way by more people with LEs in than not, and once again it's probably a tiny proportion of the community doing it but enough that the devs have taken note.

Am I correct in believing as long as the driver is LEd the vehicle cant be destroyed also? Surely this means you can have non-LEd running around at OPs etc, jumping in to an LEd rhino when it's getting rough and driving off merrily into the sunset? Being able to enter a vehicle and becoming untouchable doesn't sound fair either.

Sounds like people should join clans and make friends for protection.

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Originally Posted by Strife

Sounds like people should join clans and make friends for protection.

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A clan can't protect you from having your vehicle griefed. What are people going to do, never go anywhere without a capped escort? At best a clan can retaliate on your behalf.... but this works much better in a ganking scenario than a griefing one where someone is just going to blow up your stuff and run off.

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Originally Posted by Faid

This is no compromise it's an outright exploit against LE'd vehicles. UN-LE'd people can shoot and destroy something that cannot shoot or destroy them back. It's an exploit and it will be abused as an exploit. This is a horrible idea and it's only going to screw things up way more than they already are.

If the Devs cannot see the problem with this change then I fear we are in for more trouble than we know. I guess it's back to typical KK behaviour. sigh

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Wastelands = Dangerous place non Le'd players can be killed by other players non Le'd cant so wheres the danger for Le'd players apart from mobs???? If a non le'd person is griefing in a zone they can be killed them as you farm but you cant do that to someone with an LE so they should have some sort of downside end of LE'd players should not have a complete shield around them at all times.

Plus most tanks rolling about are all double logged fools, and sorry to say but its probably easier to farm with a normal car and a weapon since my Rav and Creed both out dmg a rhino... plus the fact Le'd players consistantly block loot on Doomreapers Grim chasers and Grim percy's, I have many a screenshot as I have had this done to me alot! 2 times yesterday and attempted 3 other times infact.

If you want to solve the issue with expensive vehicles simply give a respawn count depending on the cost of the vehicles IE bike has max 3 spawns a tank has max 6 spawns ie it can be repaired at depo after being destroyed 5 times the 6th time it will be lost completely.

Make it cost half the original key price to have a destroyed vehicle recovered.

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Originally Posted by William Antrim

Make it cost half the original key price to have a destroyed vehicle recovered.

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This is about as far from addressing this issue as can be.

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Originally Posted by Dundonian

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Plus most tanks rolling about are all double logged fools, and sorry to say but its probably easier to farm with a normal car and a weapon since my Rav and Creed both out dmg a rhino...

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It is not foolish to level barter, resser, conster, driver, APUs, PPUs easy in DEX/INT/ with double logging as driver/repairer same time as you can collect rare parts. What's wrong with this?

This would be destroyed as an excellent an funny game option to avoid boring Dex/Int levelling.

Another fail patch which only prolongs the boring levelling of this char types.

Often simple changes make things more worse in a complex environment, therefore this "simple" patches should be overthought more.

Reed

Still waiting on the official statement which will probably never come. [edit]

This is starting to remind me of the drone nerf discussions a few months ago.

Also, this still sidesteps an issue. Duel logged, LE player in drive seat with 69 VHC and everything else in rep. Non LE player in gunner seat. If attacked, the LE player jumps out snd starts repairing like mad, the Gunner can still continue to fire.
A Non-LE team can't do this as the gunner would simply shoot the repairing driver.

LE players and non-LE players shouldn't be allowed to enter the same vehicle. That's the majority of the issues that this change resolves, still resolved.

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Originally Posted by Lucas Kell

Also, this still sidesteps an issue. Duel logged, LE player in drive seat with 69 VHC and everything else in rep. Non LE player in gunner seat. If attacked, the LE player jumps out snd starts repairing like mad, the Gunner can still continue to fire.
A Non-LE team can't do this as the gunner would simply shoot the repairing driver.

LE players and non-LE players shouldn't be allowed to enter the same vehicle. That's the majority of the issues that this change resolves, still resolved.

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Your proposed change will also not prevent a LE from repping a Rhino while a non LE is shooting.

This example shows clearly that there never can be a perfect environment for LE and PvP together.

We will always have to compromise.

Your suggested change will separate the players. The opposite is the goal and making LEs buffable by non-LEs shows this (in the patch).

There will still be LE'd people who will use a Rhino even if it can be attacked now. People will learn to cope with it.

Everybody will learn to survive in the dangeous wastelands before the gates of the city.

Well LE players shouldn't be able to rep a non-LE vehicle either then :D

And in my opinion we shouldn't be trying to help LE and non-LE work together. I don't think the LE is doing very well as so many end-gamers use it. I think we should be separating LE users out even more, to encourage people to move off of the LE.

With this change this just opens up grief though. I'd be much happier if LE users simply couldn't use vehicles. The current change is just going to cause new players who are unaware they are unsafe to spend a lot of money on a vehicle only to get blown up by a bored non-LE user. it wouldn't even need to be a big character, a /30 can rip through a lot of vehicles fairly quickly.
All this change does is move the grief from affecting non-LE users to affecting LE users.

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Originally Posted by Lucas Kell

Well LE players shouldn't be able to rep a non-LE vehicle either then :D

And in my opinion we shouldn't be trying to help LE and non-LE work together. I don't think the LE is doing very well as so many end-gamers use it. I think we should be separating LE users out even more, to encourage people to move off of the LE.

With this change this just opens up grief though. I'd be much happier if LE users simply couldn't use vehicles. The current change is just going to cause new players who are unaware they are unsafe to spend a lot of money on a vehicle only to get blown up by a bored non-LE user. it wouldn't even need to be a big character, a /30 can rip through a lot of vehicles fairly quickly.
All this change does is move the grief from affecting non-LE users to affecting LE users.

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Very nice idea: because LE player with vehicles could be griefed all the time we simply took away the vec option from them :P

Better way is as described: no LE/ Un-LE mix in vehicles is allowed, then make the rules clear and LE's cannot attack/ cannot be attacked even with vehicles.

Reed

Doesnt solve LEd parking on dead mobs.

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Originally Posted by Nidhogg

Look, we're aware of the issue and we're considering it in the wider context of how the LE should work in general. We need some time to think that through, and it isn't being forgotten or ignored.

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Any other absolute gems of ideas we can expect implemented that hasn't been thought through?
It's all part of the same issue as I see it. We've been told to wait for numerous things (balancing springs to mind) because they tie in to more/bigger aspects of the game and we've been quite accepting of that. Why couldn't this wait as well? I greatly appreciate all the work that is being done by the team, but in future, if you could think things through first, that'd be great!

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Originally Posted by Kame

Doesnt solve LEd parking on dead mobs.

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Except this change just means that unLEd can now park on dead mobs, and just shot any LE vehicles that comes nearby.
It's not a fix if you are just changing the target of the problem.