LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Kame
So you are saying macroing to gain money is OK?
I really don't think you've looked at how cheap to produce these cubes are...
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LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Kame
So you are saying macroing to gain money is OK?
I really don't think you've looked at how cheap to produce these cubes are...
This should be addressed with larger changes to the game, not something that needs to be changed now because its game breaking broken. The entire mission system as a whole should be addressed but likely needs a bunch more pve balancing before it is even feasible.
My question to you is, yes you make a profit off these missions but have you actually ran a stack of TL150 missions? That is 83 missions, if you have the patience and diligence to run all those missions than by all means you are an amazing individual is all I can say. If I can make it past running 10 missions I am doing good in a day.
The fact also remains you say how easy it is to level up etc etc. But, have you put the facts to how long it takes to select the mission and then run all those? You might actually level faster if you have all the weapons made first and level by killing repetitive mobs over and over.
Hell, if they take away ability to run all those missions and don't fix mission selection prompt. Why not just make ability of making a character that is almost capped or capped just so you can by pass leveling if your not into pve. See we can always complain on and on, and come up with more ridiculous arguments to possibly implement into the game. Sigh.
wow... i wonder why this is even an issue, but then again the BORED TO THEIR WITS exploiters want the easiest way to play! WTF. i say BAN people who are using this active exploit and take away the possibility to turn in those missions without the required skill. you are not even arguing two EQUAL sides here. you are arguing for an EXPLOIT to be left in the game because you can't be bothered with playing any more. go play something else. it's like those banksters say... you need money to make money. the game economy is broken as it is and you just want an easy cop out. to big to fail, to big to jail? i beg to differ.
You need to calm down there, no one's saying "don't ban exploiters, we want them in the game". If we knew and could prove, who is exploiting the missions, they'd already be banned. Sorry, it's not enough to just say someone is obviously exploiting because they're selling hundreds of cubes or have a lot of credits, so ban them. This isn't some 13 year old's counter strike server where you can ban anyone because they're "obviously cheating", there needs to be proof.
Honestly, I'm not fully convinced people are macroing, wasn't that annoying processor window move after every few uses added to prevent that?
Exploit discussion stops here for the sake of the thread. Macroing is not permitted in game. Let's get back on to the topic at hand.
Cheers,
It really doesn't take very long at all. You can run all 83 within 2 hours easily. In that time you should end up with at least 20 in every skill, and 2.5m nc. You can't get anywhere near that level of income at a low level that quickly, and could only manage to level you main stats that quickly through combat. The missions as they are render SL useless, destroy the economy with huge income and cause low level areas to be empty of players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornhusker
Without meaning to break Trivaldi's ruling in any way, the moving of the processor window really doesn't really affect exploiters. It is really really irritating when manually building a BP Library however, especially when you are OCD about your windows not overlapping :pQuote:
Originally Posted by hatmankh
Look i dont know why you talk like TL150s are easy. They are not, they require 225+ ressearch skill to be made and they take a TON of time to make.
I dont understand why you guys talk about the missions and deliberatly leave the ressearch and it's requirement out of discussion. The missions still have to be made by someone with a cap resser.
People are stupid to sell them for cheap. I personnally make all my BPs manually and would NEVER sell them at a loss to someone else : i run em all myself.
Firstly, I never said the RESEARCH was easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
I'm not asking for the missions to be removed. I just want it to be so that a researcher cant just sell stacks and stacks of cubes and other people then run the missions.
Secondly, the cost of making 249 TL 150s is around 500k, so the mission reward is 500% of the base cost. TOO HIGH!
Thirdly, they are easy. They don't really fail that much and they can be done while dual boxing with another char. Just turn up the sound and listen for the finish sound.
Don't make it sound like its some epic journey to make them and you get stiffed at the end. It's a ridiculously easy way to make a huge volume of cash in nearly no time. Compared to any other method of gathering cash, its by far the quickest.
(I too manually create these. Hey, I want the loophole fixed, doesn't mean I'm not gonna use it while it's there)
Personally (although I don't agree with exploiting) I would not really have any issue with players transferring stacks of BPs to their alts and then running tl150 missions to level up. The real issue for me is the effect on the economy. With these sort of missions being run the amount of money entering the economy is much greater than the amount leaving it. This is one of the contributions (although in my opinion not the main one). This means inevitably rampant inflation will screw the economy over in the long run.
Before Terra shut down it was ridiculous. For veteran players money was almost meaningless. I think at peak my chars had a couple of hundred million between them (cash!) and countless parts and rares and I wasn't even wealthy compared to some players. If a new player were to join in this state they would probably struggle horribly to buy rares at their over-inflated prices.
We have a great opportunity for a fresh start with the new server but as it stands the economy is going to end up in exactly the same state as Terra was.
And I can confirm seeing literally 10 people standing around the gogo at Chester. I was enroute to MB and initially assumed I'd run into an OP fight in progress when I saw the local. When I got inside I quickly realised what was going on (especially when no one responded to my chat messages!).
Deno, if you had so much money you obviously didn't do much in terra, I was broke on so many characters as I was always pvp'in to much to make money. Let alone I say this to, another route to 'fix' the broken economy is to make it so that repair guys can't repair as much and condition worsens instead of staying same whether all points in repair or just 30 points pretty much, along with making weapons such as rares that you had tons of parts back then break easier to make it so that the economy keeps moving for buying new weapons since 'everyone' is so rich. But, not everyone use to run missions as I never ran missions as it was extremely boring to me. But, then again it was me, everyone can say everyone does it, but look around I don't think everyone runs missions past that initial /20 to /25 area if they even do that. Reason why I am saying this is because, how many people did you know that would just buy a rare weapon for tons of millions of cash just cause they had endless cash.
I personally have to say this, yes people might start with it if they can, but not all can and the economy won't be messed up to bad, since people are selling the stack of TL150 missions for what? 1.5 or 1.7 million a stack? Maybe I am mistaken, but that does not mean they are getting 2.5 mil a stack as they had to pay for half already. Also, not unless you have a character you made first or someone nice gave them to you, you have to have at least one character to make money so you can pay for them...... well unless you made the missions yourself which again means you had already leveled a character.
I also want to point this out as well, others mentioned this as well, not everyone likes pve or pvp but likes to tradeskill, granted they are the oddballs of the game, but everyone has a thing they like to do in the game. Taking away the profits they like to do in game. As in profits in their regards might help you but will disappoint them and make them come here to complain on the actions you didn't like and try to force a change.
Maybe we are looking into the wrong venture is my opinion. Maybe to stop the people doing wrong, in not making missions themselves but by third party means, we need to think a means to fix the processor so that those programs are not viable anymore. Not sure if that is possible, but I think that would be the easier concept to try to work around rather than take away rights in the game that people that have played a long time on multiple characters means of fast initial leveling.
I don't know if the suggestion that all I merely did on Terra was 'sit around amassing wealth' was a thinly veiled personal attack or what, but it's hardly relevant to this discussion. For your information I spent 95% of my time PvPing as anyone who knew me could testify... It's not difficult to both pvp and be ridiculously rich when you've been on the same server for years...
Changing the game to make macroing impossible is probably too difficult (I doubt they can just put in a Captcha after every processor use...). I also think you miss the entire point about it wrecking the economy. If this practice is as widespread as people suggest it is, then huge amounts of money are entering the economy with nowhere else to go. Someone suggested making items degrade faster. This would increase the rate at which money left the economy, but could become annoying. Might be easier just to increase the prices of things.
Anyway, this thread isn't focused on the economic aspects. I personally think there's not much they can do about it (it is afterall a legitimate way of leveling an alt). It's an option that some people choose and other than the potential impact on the economy it has no detrimental effect on other players, although I personally can't stand the idea of spending several hours repeating the same mission over and over again...
A serious discussion on how we could improve the economy is definitely warranted though.
One sentence.
There are so many more important things to fix than 150 missions.
Okay, another few sentences.
The introduction of more money sinks is a more viable solution to a money laden economy. Money doesn't buy a whole hell of a lot lately, as trades have always been more beneficial to high-level, devout players. And the people that buy stacks usually already have a ton of money if they are spending upwards of 1.5m on cubes. If a researcher has capped STR, CON, and PSI, it is more beneficial to him to sell the cubes rather than run every cube he made to get him to that level. 1300 XP is nothing to a tradeskiller when it takes a couple million points to level; why not do what is most prudent, i.e. sell the cubes to someone that gets more use of them creating a profit for your time spent?
You realise that the reson that money doesn't buy a hell of a lot, is the generation of money such as this has devalued money to the point that it is close to worthless right? That's the whole point of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by braydagner
If you are a new player (the type we are trying to encourage to play to bring the game back) the economy means you can't join in with everyone else as you simply can't draw enough money.
Just to add to the discussion:
As of just now, according to the stats there 5,104,462,465 nc in the system across players and clans. When you think about how small the player base is, this is a ridiculous amount of cash to have floating in the economy.
It is the same with techs. Getting Techs is too easy. Same with money.
The current cost-benefit-ratio is very good for casual players at the moment. But it is even better for the hardcore gamers.
This system has to be rebalanced in some way. (Same with OP-rewards and so on)
Easiest and most correct way to fix the problem: Make tl150 research missions completed upon actual completion of the cube. Exactly the same as the kill missions. Problem solved, you don't have to worry about the economy, the money, the XP, people macroing at Chester, none of it. Make it the way it is intended to be. Do the same with recycle and construct missions. Why is this so difficult?
Yeah, this is /signed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Faid
As one of the people at Chester, I do not agree with nerfing tl150's at all.
I level my resser there (on my secondary monitor) while leveling another character/watching movies.
I use these tl150's as a source of income and a way of leveling noob characters.
The problem we have to address is the ones that we are not allowed to talk about. With that problem fixed, NOTHING is wrong with tl150's as it is a VERY time consuming process, it require quite a Funding to get startet.
Except it doesn't take that much funding to get started. It takes 500k to produce a Stack, but if you produce 9 cubes then hand in you can quickly ramp up how many you need to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropout
Think about the reason you use that method to make income and level your alts. Its the fastest way to do both right? And you do it while watching TV or playing another character? So you are saying the best way to level and make cash can be done while as close to AFK as you can get, and this isn't unbalanced?
Come on...
Again, I think the whole point of the research mission is that you get credit for actually researching the item, therefore you should only get credit for completing the cubes as you do them. Just like the kill missions are designed that people get credit for killing the designated mob. Recycle and construct missions should work the same.
I understand that people want to keep them the way they are because it's a ridiulously fast and easy way to level low chars and get rich, but it doesnt mean it's right. Used to be that droning was the fast easy way to level and get rich, but they fixed that. How is this any different?
I have a counter Idea you should pick your PC up dont unplug and rip it out of the wall and throw it out of the window and dont come back ggQuote:
Originally Posted by Lucas Kell
Honestly the Devs time is much needed on things that are currently breaking the game rather than whining about the fact others are making easy money and your just bitter about it id like to add I do not have a researcher but from time to time i bore myself to death and do them to help level my noob chars
OK angry :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Dundonian
In my opinion, the state of the economy and the effect that has on new players is a fairly critical issue that needs to be addressed. I'm not telling you you have to agree, but viewpoints others that your own aren't necessarily wrong.
As for being bitter, why would I be bitter? I've said a few times in this thread (if you'd bothered to read it) that I myself run these missions. They are the best way to level noobs and make cash, so of course I run them. But I'm willing to look at the bigger picture and say "This is not good for the game. This issue needs to be addressed, even if it cuts off a major revenue stream for myself as well."
What I don't do is suggest people leave the game simply because I disagree with what they have to say and can't think of a counter point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas Kell
It also takes a (almost) capped resser and a ~1mil tool. And hopefully 2-3 ressearch chips like a ~2mil SS or ~2mil TH CPU. Now add to that your 500k value for empty cubes and substance.
Leaving facts out of the equation again arn't we Kell ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas Kell
Over and over you completely disregard the main requirement for making TL150's, which is the char and and the imps and the tool. That alone is a 20-25 hrs playing to get the XP (without cubes, remember you can't make them ?) and then saving up to for the chips and also SS CPU can be quite rare and not always available for purchase.
I don't think anyone's arguing that the original resser shouldn't get credit for doing the missions. As you point out it's rather difficult to get started and I think the large reward for these missions should be rewarded to the researcher who has to go through all the trouble of buying the tool, getting the chips etc. Not some 0/2 noob char who is too lazy to level the intended way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
The underlying problem I see here is that he (OP) probably only bought the cubes from someone dumb enough to sell them under market price because they're either dumb or because they're dumb.
My cubes are precious to me, highly valuable good that are worth a lot for the XP for the starter chars, it's true. This is why I don't sell them.
Selling cubes at under market price is the problem.
As for OP, if you think cubes are easy to make, you havn't ever made them thats for sure.
I suggest you just go ahead and make one. Make a spy from scratch and lv it however you want and spec the necessary 225 ressearch points and buy a tool and make a few 249 stacks.
Then come back and tell us how you feel about TL150's.
If they are sold under price the effort to make them must have been quite low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kame
The reason must be that an illegal way was being used to make them.
Countering that would be very good. This is an old subject.
Crazy idea: Maybe researching should be changed to be more like hacking ;)
Or a more serious idea: All processor slots are numbered. After researching is started a number is seen flashing. You must press the appropriate number on the processor to start the next res. This is a kind of captcha, as someony jokingly suggested before.
People are missing a subtle point here when discussing the effect on the economy. They say the cost is huge (5 mil for tools/implants). With the exception of the tool ALL the money goes to other players. So the only money sink (as in money that has left the economy) is from the tool and the raw materials. The net influx of cash into the economy is therefore massive. Personally I think they need to decrease the cash payments received upon killing higher level mobs to really address the problem. After leveling through El Farid and other AoE dungeons most players are not short of cash.
Look, if I wanted to, I could go out and make over a couple million in a night without selling to players or running missions. The money is always going to be farmed in one way or another, there is no getting around that. And some researchers use OPs to help them be able to research/contruct said cubes. Are they supposed to spend half of their time waiting off SI every time they want to run one mission? How is that fair to tradeskillers? Again, it's just another idea to screw over non-PVP aspects of the game.
When you first start researching 150 cubes, you break and fail more than you make, but the XP is still worth it. You're losing money from the start, why not make it up later on?
And 500k to make a stack sounds like a barter's price for the materials. Not everyone has access to a barter.
Your argument is like Swiss cheese. As in, you think it's holy and I think it lacks enough substance.
Even at the cap, the failure rate of researching the TL 150 cubes is around 33%. Of that, 33% of those are critical failures where the cube is destroyed (ok, yeah, cube cost is trivial). I remember the discussion back in the day and the resulting change to the research mission system - this is the reason for the really high return on investment for the TL 150 missions. It helps to recover the cost of the research lube that you chew through in doing this. Of course, regardless of having a barterer or not, the 30k still way more than covers it.
And for the record, research missions DID used to be random. Each mission would always ask for 3BPs from a pool of 3 predetermined items for each mission TL level. For example, a TL 40 research mission would always ask for 3BPs of either implant xyz 2, implant abc 2, or implant def 2. You wouldn't know which one until you took the mission, and it was random. So you used to have to research stacks of these three items more or less equally. Then, at the next mission TL level, 3 whole new items.
I'm with Kame; I don't sell my cubes. Far too precious to spare the 800k-1M nc lost to selling the stack. 2.5M for a couple of hours running 83 missions is worth it. All that work for up to 1M nc less would kill me a little inside.