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We've had the discussion on PvP in NC before.
OP Fights yes, running back and forwards between the zone line no.
And Dropout yes there is the ability to have different setups but some one always has that better setup. You get people getting killed end up in here creating 100's of threads to change this and that to make it Easier for them to win.
It wasn't a serious suggestion, I know NC is awesome. I was simply highlighting the weakness of the "Fuck off and play a different game" argument. I'd prefer to keep exchanging ideas than resort to that.
Not this argument again.
Some people like PvP
Some people like PvE
Some people like both
Neocron should continue to support all of these, for the benefit of all of these.
Although I will say that Forget My Name is talking sense - balance PvP, then fix PvE elements that are out of line based off of that.
And that if easier levelling is the general will of the community, then that should be implemented broadly and systematically, ot through one-easy-farm-point.
But discussion of the OPs subject is only going to lead us into the same argument. Yes the issue is fundamentally flawed but as usual the arguments/discussions come down to exactly the same issues. When you boil away the water this is the resin that is left at the bottom of the spoon, Neocrack. It is fundamentally a huge change in game mechanics.
What the OP wanted to achieve based on his original badly worded rant we will probably not ever know. Sure we can dissect it all day long but I would much rather go watch porn. Essentially the game has some issues as we well know. Ordinarily the best place for these sorts of discussions is the brainport where logical reasoning and collective thinking flourish, hopefully. In this case I guess it slipped through the net. We will remain very stoic in our views on this topic evidently and based on how strongly so many people feel on the issue I can see it being contentious for a long time yet.
The only thing we can do is put forth our own ideas and hope that they are listened to.
Personally I would like to see NC1 pve levels with Regant's Legacy added. I would like to see the glass put back in to mc5 so we have some room behind it to hide. I would like to see nc1 drop rates for warbots too. I had the most fun in PvE during that time as we could go into caves in small groups and manage ok. We had good xp in lots of different caves. If you got to a high enough level you could actually go in some caves without a ppu (swamp caves) and everyone had their own favourite spot.
I would like the game to revert to this state in PvE and have some of the PvP fixes that I, and many of you, have been belligerently campaigning for for so long now.
I dont think that pve should be made (much) easyer, but making it harder would just be insane imo (with the exception of regants boss room - it IS a bit too easy).Quote:
Originally Posted by CMaster
And about the "much": Regants obviously shouldnt be easyer than it is. But other ways of leveling fast would be nice.
Double XP events please.
hands up who played all the recent FPS in "easy" setting. maybe because youre not interested in playing the game itself, just in fighting the end boss. really, folks, all this complaing about neocron beeing too hard and tiresome to play is somewhat, well, entertaining. at least to the vast majority of nc-gamers who are happy to live a leisuretime life in this unique and wonderful neitherworld.
back to OP: we all know how to raid regants, and yes, its not tough enough as can solo it, while it should be a team cave. so we need to remove tech part drop from regants and give those unlucky inhabitants some ranged attack, and more damage in general. just so it will be a challenge again, not a grind.
... Personally I always play single player games on "hard" setting. Single player games usually has FUN pve, NC do not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torg
Perhaps, but it's a lot more fun than most, if not all, other MMO PvE combat. [Target lock, mash 1-0], so yeah I enjoy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropout
I can't speak for anyone else, but I never said I wanted PvE to be easy. I said I want it to be FUN. Big difference between "easy" and "fun".Quote:
Originally Posted by Haxxor
I find killing fire mobs beyond thier aggro range "easy".
I find killing fire cave mobs with a group of people, especially with a PPU, "fun".
I find killing fire cave mobs alone without a PPU "boring".
I find killing Regants mobs by running around them in circles and dodging the laggy instant kill attacks of crawlers "easy and fun".
I find leveling with anything but a long range shooter or droner "boring, and in most cases, improbable".
I don't mind Regants getting an overhaul, I am all for it, but now is not the time. This is just how I feel, that's all.
Honest reply m8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forget My Name
Overall PvE needs a massive overhaul or at least a big change. I used to love my melee tank in NC1 now it would be suicidal speccing for Melee :(.
So many cave's for example havent adapted to the changes that have been made to the game. Worm Tunnel's for example aren't used, Swamp Caves have become less used and the Cristal Caves are pretty vacant. They don't suit runners who have come to rely on AoE as the primary means to level. Plus very little is gained is from them them caves.
So i would agree that PvE has become a chore. Personally im constantly gr'ing all over the wastelands to kill stuff as killing the same thing over and over has lost it's appeal.
Just to interject, we are aware of the shortcomings in a number of our intended high level hunting grounds. I'm thinking of ways to address certain areas in the long term as well as very interested to see ideas for different hunting grounds from the community. I will say this; Regant's Legacy does have a number of issues and is miles from what it should be based on the original concept. That, along with many many things, will be addressed in time*.
*When It's Done™
I have tried this, and this is my experience...Quote:
Originally Posted by Haxxor
"Alright, I am tired of leveling at either El Farid, Fire Caves, Outside Fire Mobs, or Regants. These are the spots I level at normally"
1) Y replicants in the south eastern wasteland sectors.
Their bodies are small, so hitting them at range while they move is pretty improbable. They hit too damn hard once I get close, so fighting up close isn't an option. Oh look, after 5 minutes of hill clipping and zone line hiding, I killed one. Oh, I have to hack it for my reward? NO THANKS.
Too hard to hit, not probable for a single player to farm for "fun", and reward makes it not worth it for non hackers.
2) Hovers covering every sector in the middle of the Wastes.
Giant bodies make them easy to hit across the zone, but they can kill you with near full resists in 2 or 3 hits as a Tank with 1.1k life. I finally killed one due to hiding in a building for 5 minutes... OH great, another mob reaKKtor decided to punish non hackers for killing again. What the fuck is with the original developers making everything end game non friendly to non hackers?
Easy to hit, but will kill you in a few hits, most of the time without an animation. If you do manage to kill one of these after an hour of hiding in a building, unless you have hacking, once again you are denied your reward for playing the game. Not worth it for leveling or looting.
3) Doy Tunnels. You need a group, or be a droner. To get any reward you need to be a hacker, once a fucking again!
Not worth it unless you are a loner droner, or doing clan farming. Also, unless you hack, fuck off, so even if you are in a group, as a non hacker, you just need to trust your team mates.
4) Swamp Caves. Who cares. Used to be fun pre 2.2, but now the mobs just poison and kill you instantly. For once you don't need to hack to get your reward, but no techs drop, shit, nothing good drops.
Not worth it in any circumstance.
5) Point Red like dungeons. Fun! The war soldiers are actually fun to fight against! HIding, ducking, shooting, fun! Oh... The boss drops a shitty rocket launcher I wouldn't pay 50k for a 5 slot version of? No tech drops? Once again, like Poison Caves, a mob you don't need to hack, but you get no reward for.
Fun to do a few times just to say you did it, but the novelty wears off after you realize the boss mob drops shit.
6) Crystal Caves. Biggest issue... Bats are tiny as fuck to hit. They also hit you harder than most fire mobs. Level design actually has spots where you can fall into a pit and you are stuck. You either have to die to the bats that fall down with you, or kill self, or reset position. Bat Queen does drop good loot, but people forget Neocron Melee is the most worthless play style in any mmo currently.
Fun to do for a bit, but once you get your bat queen set, you never go back.
7) Worm Caves. The ones I went into are empty. I don't have any opinion about them.
8) Johnny 5 bots. Found near DOY sectors. Meh... low rank mobs that need to be hacked.
Who cares.
9) Worms. Found near DOY sectors. Pre 2.2 used to be THE leveling monster for high level players. Sticking DOY in the game, moving mobs around, and mingling worms along side Johnny 5 bots, Terror Maulers and out door Soul Clusters makes farming worms a thing of the past.
10) Graves. Used to level in there pre 2.2, but after 2.2, mobs hit to hard to bother.
11) Warbots. I don't hunt these anymore, so no opinion. Need hack anyway, but with the tech drop nerfed, who cares. Probably the one thing rifle users enjoy hunting in the game due to large hit box.
"OOOohhhh..... So now I know why I only level in the following spots..."
1) Regants. Packs of mobs clustered together for wonderful EXP. Unique Mobs found nowhere else in the game, so the mobs feel unique, unlike the 500 hoverbombers spread throughout the wastes.
Fun to farm, and loot worth getting. Can be soloed, so in a low pop game such as Neocron, a spot like this keep high level players in the game who aren't droning in DOPY tunnels, playing. DON'T NEED HACK TO ENJOY REWARDS.
2) Fire Caves. Packs of mobs clustered together for wonderful EXP. Location of CRP Cave makes leveling as a group in neocron a possible thing to do, unlike the rest of the game where solo play is punished.
Easy to farm. Best spot in the game to find groups to play with. Location next to a GR, GOGO and DRT makes it THE best spot in the game to level over all.
3) El Farid. Place for droners to level.
4) Outside Fire Mobs. Probably THE premier way to farm techs if you aren't a hacking droner. Why? You can out range them, and they don't move as fast as other out door mobs... Also, YOU DON'T FUCKING NEED HACK TO ENJOY ENDGAME WITH FIRE MOBS.
Seriously... I remember when NC first came out, and people wanted Hacking to be an important aspect of the game... But shoving hacking into everything makes the game near unplayable. FUCK SHOVING HACK INTO EVERYTHING.
That is why I farm in the same 4 spots for all my classes.
My main problem with PvE in this game is that most end game content requires you to play in a group with a healer, but there are two issues I have found with making Neocron into a WoW Raid Clone...
1) The game naturally attracts self sustaining players. Hate me for saying this, but Neocron attracts people who want to run around and gank people willy nilly, have the best swag and swing the biggest dick. This kind of community does not make for a good grouping community. How many times have I been in Regants/Fire Caves where people refuse to group for Reason X.
Most people just want to level quickly for end game pvp, and slowing their experience for PvE teaming "fun" isn't on the menu.
For an MMO, Neocron is a single player experience.
2) Low population. Simply put, Neocron does not have the amount of players needed to saturate all the end game areas at all times.
So the developers want the PvE content to be Raid-like, but the entire design of the game promotes a single player atmosphere.
The original design of Neocon contradicts what the developers wanted to change Neocron since it's release.
/rant
people don't team due to the xp nerf of teaming. You will find this changes with the patch.
Your rant is therefore pretty much resolved as you can team with a hacker/join a clan with a hacker. I have a small handful of friends in my social circle who play nc. We usually go hunting together as a group and we always have a hacker if it is required.
If you are solo there are plenty of places to hunt solo, on every class.
I hope that the team exp balance fixes all the issues I have with PvE!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
Now let me log on my tank, and find a hacker, so I can enjoy end game :)
If people want to team again you will find your fun will rise exponentially as the xp will rise exponentially with it. It doesnt matter where you go as it will be better everywhere.
Then when you have finished having so much fun you will probably find that you have also been patient. In this time of great patience and solace the devs will have had chance to relax a little from their full time jobs and families and be able to work on some other burning issues. No not Christmas with their loved ones, NC for you. It is a much more important issue. As long as PvE is fixed it wont matter if they have to work New Years Eve or get up extra early in the first dawn light of 2013. As long as PvE is fixed. But hey youre still having fun right? Good, ok chief happy with that.
So yeah once that is done you might find some of these other issues also get resolved. Its all about you right. Yeah right on bro. In the meantime instead of ranting how about thinking about some of the other things that you might have looked at and thought of solutions to that someone else missed. Devs are the same as the rest of us. Human. They have opinions, feelings and emotions. We each have our own opinions and some of them are very passionate. That is one of the things that makes this community so great.
However the shortsightedness of some of its members is appalling. Its the "Now let me log on my....." part that gets me. However the money shot is that last line. That's the one that really sold me. Tank. The one class in the game that you REALLY can still solo PLENTY of the content with.
If you had said Pistol pe or rifle spy I might have had some sympathy for you. If you had said APU or pistol spy I would have definitely patted you on the back and shared your moment of grief. But youre whinging about a tank.... I had to laugh my ass off.
Everyone here knows the game isnt fixed. Far from it. Triv even weighed in on the subject you and you got an official comment. Well about as official as the Dev team can be.
Yet still you have to rant.
GG bro. Seriously, nice one.
Thats what they want in the brainport. Rants. Helps to test the game loads and DEFINITELY helps the morale and motivation of the guys trying to fix the game for you.
How about suggesting something more like this for improvements?
What about making mob dispersal related to zone and climate?
Have jonny 5s moved back to the Dome of York and surrounding countryside?
Have just firemobs around the canyon?
Move Y replicants over to the doy areas too and remove the hacking requirement on them?
Put hazard worms et al around the Apparition caves
Have hovers remain ONLY around TH
Basically have areas where mobs spawn, across 9-12 zones or so around the map?
Doy Tunnels - beef up the amount of non hackable mobs (doy soldiers) and decrease the amount of hackable ones - so that everyone can farm and having a hacker is a bonus.
What about boosting the hell out of the uplink bonuses? Like Plus 50 or something so that Uplink Levelling zones suddenly become uber good and highly sought after. I recall in NC1 before the GR rules came in about locking and unlocking we used to go to Northstar uplink and hunt warbots there with the hack bonus and only like one hacking chip and we could pretty much farm all day (on a non hacking char ordinarily). This way even Tanks could level up there and still get rares.
all of these are constructive criticisms and suggestions.
Other than that all i can say is join a clan and level with your clan mates. Theres bound to be some who will recruit still.
@OP
I'll keep it short.
Neither routes harm anyone. If you dislike then don't do it.
Long version
There is nothing stopping you enjoying your levelling. If you like run endless cave runs over the next few years then go for it. Enjoy yourself. I have no problem with this :D
If you want to level your XP quickly, and get involved with PVP and OP wars, then head down Regents a few hundred times. You might go blind in the process, or die from boredom, but the point is to level.
Neither option harms either players' route.
I am wearly of all this, so please grow up.
PS. There are so many other things to do in this game, than the above!
Just fyi William, I only hold discussions with people online who refrain from insults and actually WANT to exchange ideas. I don't know why you went off on a tangent there because I used the class "tank".
I never attacked you, so I don't know where all this rage/hate/anger/whatever towards me is coming from.
When you want to chat about game issues in an adult manner, I'll be here. :)
I'm stopping this now. If you have a problem with each other discuss it via PM. Don't make me come back to this thread for the wrong reasons.
i think we have discussed nearly all of the facts surrounding regants. this cave is the single most important grinding place for ppl wanting to skip PvE and going to PvP pretty fast. and it appears to me that we should leave it as it is. for now. since triv kindly acknowledged the lack of high-end PvE spots, we all are called out to come up with detailed ideas, stories, descriptions of MMO content.
one last remark on the manners question: every now and then language is getting pretty strong on the forums, so always someone would feel insulted. why dont we put up a truce for the brainport and bug report parts, and keep flaming to the "community talk"? deal?
I wouldn' t call that "discuss". All the trolls that only come to the brainport once a month to flame and defend their favorite exploit can suck my dick btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torg
Your rant annoyed me. It was counter productive. I am more than happy to discuss these matters in an adult manner. I try to in 99% of my posts. I am guilty of feeling as passionate as you and many other people. I have no personal malice. I just dislike people ranting generally and not coming up with some good ideas. I am as guilty as you are in that I had a pop back when it might have been better to just ignore it.
Well as said, I've no issues with making the nightmare experience a bit more sensible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodo
But Neocron doesn't have the setup to make just dumping in really hard mobs work. The aggro system is very simple and while not impossible to exploit tactically, certainly limited in so. Additional support classes don't provide any additional support. You can't just drop in a big uber-mob (or cluster of) and expect that to work in NC, the way it might in CD-based MMOs/RPGs. The tools aren't there for the players. That isn't to say that you couldn't design an NC experience that required large team numbers and careful coordination. Just that it would need to be designed for that from the ground up.
Bug reports should be fine. But the reality is that brainport is the P2 zoneline of poster vs poster combat. People are going to get pretty fired up about ideas they are passionate about, or ways they want to influence the game to benefit themselves. So tempers are always going to flare here. (also, some ideas are stupid. It's not always easy to avoid just shouting that back)Quote:
Originally Posted by Torg
I think what William and Dropout were really after was "faster" levelling rather than necessarily "easier" levelling, if you see where I'm coming from. Hence why I said that perhaps rather than one rather broken spot, it would perhaps be better to look at XP gains and so on across the board. Especially as having one place much better than others brings on a whole bunch of problems (competition for use of the space notably).
As for some places needing teams, and some things requiring hacking (although note that there's no reward worth speaking of from y-reps even if you do hack, and most ultis/illegals from DoY tunnels come from non-hack mobs), that's fine by me. Perhaps a bit less hacking would be good for wasteland mobs, but still.
Suggestion: Maybe a brainport thread for each hunting zone. People talk about their experience of it (fun, difficulty, what was effective, did they feel adequately rewarded). People can chip in with ideas about what could be done with them?
Ok, so I've decided to split of your post and give my opinion on some of the specifics you gave.
I have tried this, and this is my experience...
"Alright, I am tired of leveling at either El Farid, Fire Caves, Outside Fire Mobs, or Regants. These are the spots I level at normally"
I think this is another example of mobs seemingly being able to instantly target you, dealing far too much damage per hit and having huge range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forget My Name
Another example of mobs seemingly being able to instantly target you, dealing far too much damage per hit and having huge range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forget My Name
Team/clan content which I think is good to have, especially if the other issues here are addressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forget My Name
Another example of mobs seemingly being able to instantly target you and dealing far too much damage per hit. They shouldn't be able to instagib/2-3 shot players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forget My Name
From what I remember, you're right the mobs are actually fun to fight against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forget My Name
The Boss really should have a 'slim/rare' chance to drop rare parts.
Aiming in general seems to be a real issue against small/relatively fast moving mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forget My Name
There should be more level's of these mobs about with a chance to drop rare parts, giving a reason to hunt them rather than avoid them. Needing to hack them makes sense though as they are robots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forget My Name
Like other mobs, their instant target, huge range and high initial damage needs to be fixed/balanced.
Considering all the zones there are up at that part of the map, separating them a bit shouldn't be too hard to do. (still nice to come across other random unexpected mobs now and again though)Quote:
Originally Posted by Forget My Name
I find this is the same with a lot of mobs, they simply hit far too hard per hit to give you a real chance. I've nothing against difficult mobs and have a good chance of killing you, but they shouldn't be able to instagib/2-3 shot players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forget My Name
Need to be restored to their pre 2.2 tech part drop rates, and have more of them randomly about the game world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forget My Name
All in all, I think a lot of the issues actually boil down to some issues with mob mechanics in NC.
Mob seem to be able to instantly target you the second they see you. (you have to wait a fair bit before your reticule is closed enough to try to hit them)
Most, if not all high level mobs simply deal far too much damage per hit to give you a realistic chance of trying to kill them, especially when you add in the fact that they can instantly target you, making trying to hide behind cover between shots pretty much a waste of time (quite often mobs will still be able to hit you when behind boxes/crates etc as well).
Then there's the issue of range, a lot mobs seem to still be able to hit your consistently at huge range that even a rifle user can barely use and will miss a lot of shots at.
My apologies for going a bit OT, but it's all relative when it comes to mobs, their difficulty and damage.
Possibly my points may be better in a new thread/topic.
I know this isn't a huge contribution but I agree on the Y-Reps being unfair in that they: are very thin targets, have a large aggro range and a HUUUUUUUUUUUUGE attack range (imagine a player shooting like that..), do tons of damage, and aren't worth the loot. I actually thought they DID drop techs, but if they don't they really should.
Hoverbombers, I actually request that these guys are not modified, aside from decreasing their mob density per zone, and also decreasing their overall world map locations (the latter of which was earlier suggested in this thread, too). The reason that I ask that they stay the same, as far as difficulty/rank/AI is:
- I like that I'm terrified of them.
- The tactic(s) you might use to kill/hunt them, are, as far as I know, unique to them.
That said, yes, lessen their population. It's not cool to see 8 HoverEyes having a sky orgy.
Like nets ideas to be honest. I would like pve to go back to nc1 pve as well or maybe a tad harder.
Afaik Y reps can drop techs ive looted 1 or 2 but i think the drop rate is comparable with warbots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izeo
If its the ones in the south east i think theyre there for storyline purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
Maybe for the storyline 1 faction is able to control them and takes them somewhere else, something goes wrong and they end up a new high level levelling spot.Quote:
A few weeks later, the CityAdmin commissions Tangent Technologies to construct Ceres Cyborgs using the blueprints. It is intended to assault the Twilight Guardian with their help. Very soon, preparations commence in sector C-12. However, the cyborgs turn out to be utterly uncontrollable and are left in the sector, while development is continued elsewhere.
Yup, that is my entire point. high end mobs hit waaaay to hard in 2.2, and if they are supposed to be so damn hard to deal with, their loot is either unacceptable or not even accessible at all.
120% agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forget My Name
Hopper's being a prime example.
If Melee is going to be an made a viable pve option in the future how on earth would they deal with the AoE attack from a Grim Persc.
Spiderbot's hit alot harder than they used to (what happened to make the smaller one higher combat rank to the larger one?).
Pve was broken imo in nc2. not .whatever.
As for the hacker comment. well it is an mmo. your not supposed to solo everything. Its kinda encouraging you to team with others. thank god its not like wow with a dungeon queue ;)
Pve is its own seperate entity and to simplify it all will probably be a gargantuan project to ensure the right mixture of balance vs challenge long term. That said i think the outdoors mobs need a good nerfing so that it IS possible to let all manner of classes compete semiviably again. (melee vs grim was the nail on the head. no pun intended)
Caves still need to remain hard but should be doable with a decent team with the correct support. It should not exclude classes from going in there though because they are too weak to stand up to the mob that are there.
Ps. graves isnt actually THAT bad. we been there the other day. You just cant run through smashing it like the old days and you certainly cant solo it.