Printable View
Must be honest here, weapon damage is pretty messed up, i mean i would love to see the slasher back into play, and the libby, wyat , PE Melee weps etc. The only good solid competitors now are xbow PE's and HC tanks , and quite frankly im getting bored using the same old weapons :(
PS, Allways liked your graphs Cmaster, Simple and straight to the point ;)
Well at least you do know whos IS NOT going to continue with this study. Balance in 2.2 is achieved in its most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by CMaster
APUs need some rectifying.
Good news is, that all of them that say is not, will ultimately help you with the project :)
At the same time, I will keep playing with my spy and enjoying the game
One person does not make a study. all i can say. good work cm my god your have time on your hands :)
This is definitly something to work from, but it can not be used on it's own. Other factors are involved, which maybe could be also put onto a similar graph and overlapped over the first graph to get a better picture.
I have to say now I have only used my capped Rifle Spy since 2.2 so I can only make comments on this class and weapon type.
Other factors include weapons that do not do location damage, like the Healing Light for example. Sure it looks like it does a nice amount of damage, but you have to consider that it cannot increase it's damage from aiming at the head, nor slow its target down by aiming at the legs.
Other considerations as mentioned earlier are aiming speed and run speed compared to damage output (really there shouldn't be a setup possible to deal high amounts of damage AND be really fast at running - but there is if you are a Tank!).
...but not with a cannon out
Yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by $ir Mafia
Lets Kick0r some asses^^
Adding to my earlier post, a neat thing would be if KK could implement some kind of logging code for any runner in a combat zone longer than say 2 minutes, the logging would start immediately but only be recorded/sent if the runner stayed in the zone longer than 2 minutes.
The runner's weapon choice and relevant combat stats would be recorded, and the kills the runner made, or if the runner died. This could be fed through a statistics management program to determine what weapons needed tweaking (after significant stats crunching) It wouldn't be necessary to record opponent weapons or stats, since each weapon would have it's own stat line and each runner would have a recorded data set based on weapon used (so opponents would naturally feed the complete data set assuming they weren't zone hopping)
It also wouldn't matter if you had 10 xbow users to one of any other weapon, since all that would do is provide a very accurate picture of the xbow's DoT potential, and a less accurate picture of the other weapons (just an example) However if the data was collected long enough, any weapon in use would eventually have a very complete data set that would provide an accurate indication of it's damage potential.
Normally, I'd say that would be a great idea. Considering the already fragile state of the "netcode", I think it would just stress the whole system even more, and reduce playability though. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Glok
OMG!!!111Quote:
Originally Posted by Glok
You violate sensitive personal data act this way!!!
Really though what is the point to all this?
Instead, you could simply try playing the damn game, but you lot wanna "play" the mad scientist :p
@Ash: Ashley, make a rfile spy and join us mate. Get rid of the same old same old cannons. You'll love it! With a semi decent setup, some ppu support and you wont die ever :p (much like I do)
At least I'm giving easily replicated examples, and not things like "the AK bullets are small (ROFLECOPTER) therefore FL and AK are single burst :PQuote:
Originally Posted by nabbl
Also correct if I was wrong, but it was you and your friends that persuaded kk to lower damage in pvp, leading to increased clipping and tanks not dieing.
Also it was again you and your friends on Mars, claiming that low frequency/high damage shots are best, killing APUs with low frequency spells.
Now there is the myth of burst/single shot guns that floats, I wonder what will come next
Hey man NC is the product of mad scientists! Besides it's fun.. I think every forumgoer that's still here has had their turn at trying to fix KK's game, and a few times player input has been implemented, especially if you consider the beta period of NC1.
i didnt say they have small bullets ... OoQuote:
Originally Posted by jini
i said they have small bursts. which actually means that when u hit the mouse button only once, there will only come 2 bullets out of the gun. and thats the case with FL isnt it?
they HAD to lower damage... without that, the tank was much too strong. everybody was dieing too fast, but the tank. now spies and pes have a chance against creed and so on. but before everybody was dead in seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by jini
the goal was to make fights last longer, but not to make some classes invincible. did u know that, with the damage reduction patch, the ppu shields got better? from 25% to 30%. thats a problem of balance too.
erm... no. ive never said such a thing Oo. show me a quote plz.Quote:
Originally Posted by jini
its no MYTH. CARNAGE CONFIRMED IT.Quote:
Originally Posted by jini
but u arent able to read i think -.-
put on your pink glasses, maybe that will help.
Jini youre not being in the slightest bit constructive so stay out of the thread eh. Noone here honestly cares what you think as far as I can see, you have proved your lack of understanding of the point of the thread once more.
@ Glok: I like the idea, its a shame it wont ever get implemented. I think in all fairness the only way we will be able to plot this information is to continue as Cmaster has done so far.
I volunteer to help with testing as and when needed (I have limited time during the week).
WTF does THAT has to do with it being burst or single shot??? ARE you drunk? And the FL shoots green bullets, does that affects the use also? NUBQuote:
Originally Posted by nabbl
And what if FL has 2 nd AK has 3, AK is still easier to use why?
Another stream of pure b***hit... Reduction was 10% to EVERYONE, and it means what it means: ONLY AFFECTS DAMAGE you noobie. Not the time it takes for your character to die, because in this extra time frame you can get a heal a hab a pad everything. On the other hand, the creed is bugged and on the other its not, killing spies in seconds? very strange indeed...Quote:
they HAD to lower damage... without that, the tank was much too strong. everybody was dieing too fast, but the tank. now spies and pes have a chance against creed and so on. but before everybody was dead in seconds.
the goal was to make fights last longer, but not to make some classes invincible. did u know that, with the damage reduction patch, the ppu shields got better? from 25% to 30%. thats a problem of balance too.
He confirmed what? show us his confirmation, would really interested to see itQuote:
its no MYTH. CARNAGE CONFIRMED IT.
but u arent able to read i think -.-
put on your pink glasses, maybe that will help.
u dont understand a thing. -.-Quote:
Originally Posted by jini
btw... im not allowed to drink alcohol during work. thats just for workless greek people without a reallife.
these burst weapons are closer to singleshot weapons. therefore the difference between them isnt that big. im not quite sure where is exactly the problem with the burst weapons. carnage said, that it has something to do with the high amount of bad shots even on closed aiming.
ure not good at maths are u? fights in pp3 were a JOKE before the damage reduction. u came there with a spy or PE and you were dead in seconds. fights 1 vs. 2 or 1 vs. 3 were only possible as a tank. u had some time to run away or sync, because of the high constitution. As a Spy u ran into two enemies and u couldnt even get the stealth tool in your hand. And whats up with the newbies? people who were pvping for the first time maybe, couldnt even learn anything. they were dead as soon as they pulled out their weapon. it was absolutely no fun for them. The Damage Reduction was a nice move of KK and totally RIGHT!Quote:
Originally Posted by jini
On the other side they shouldtnt have increased the shield percentages... Op Fight against Tanks with sync is a joke.
im gonna search for it. it was in german forums. maybe carnage could give a small statement here, because im not sure im gonna find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jini
Wouldn't be a surprise to see it slip away, but if everything suggested over the last 5 years had been added the game would be 10GB!Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
yea sure... well I am allowed to drink on mine, since I am the boss nub:p, something that you need a lot of time for you to achieve. So, for the time being your small pitty job of pushing papers is exactly right for you atm. And when you realise that you must land that big sissy arrogant nose of yours you might also allowed to drink at work as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by nabbl
After those personal insults, there is only one problem with burst weapons since you obviously dont know them: their disadvantage of having to permanently lock on the targets at all times and thats not easy when everyone and everything is swirling round and around. The single shots dont have that. All you need do is lock and fire
That happened when none knew how to setup right a spy. A lot of people still don't know. 10% didnt change the sky after all. The damage reduction was a move that made tanks almost indestructible. And a lil after the known introduction of clipping, it made them invincible.Quote:
ure not good at maths are u? fights in pp3 were a JOKE before the damage reduction. u came there with a spy or PE and you were dead in seconds. fights 1 vs. 2 or 1 vs. 3 were only possible as a tank. u had some time to run away or sync, because of the high constitution. As a Spy u ran into two enemies and u couldnt even get the stealth tool in your hand. And whats up with the newbies? people who were pvping for the first time maybe, couldnt even learn anything. they were dead as soon as they pulled out their weapon. it was absolutely no fun for them. The Damage Reduction was a nice move of KK and totally RIGHT!
On the other side they shouldtnt have increased the shield percentages... Op Fight against Tanks with sync is a joke.
im gonna search for it. it was in german forums. maybe carnage could give a small statement here, because im not sure im gonna find it.
Like i used to say aeons before, the only viable solution was to fix the lighting speeds. Instead of that you gave a 10% advantage to the tanks.. great
lol... gl & hf..
Nabbl, Ich lieber dich ;)
*points to title :P
What about DPS (damage per second) and isn't that information published somewhere on this forum, I'm sure it was during the beta server test... You can't go off damage amount alone, what about the many different setups which are possible? Which effect runspeed ROF/Damage and resists/hitpoints and Maybe there is an issue with burst weapons missing to much but don't burst weapons normally do more DPS?? So if you can aim them they are better and reward a good pvper this all looks like nubs who can't pvp crying that the weapons are broken.
I remember befor 2.2 balancing the exec did a little bit less like 3 points less damage than the xbow but the xbow was far better due to I think ROF and different damage type ammounts. It was also easyer to aim I heard, it also let you have a better resist setup etc, where a PE using exec had to use PA 4 and druging like a mofo. See you can't just go off some damage chart theres many factors to balancing. Take a xray CS to a persons face while they are hunting fire mobs with full fire armor on and overloaded with loot so they are running slower and they will DIE. See where I'm comming from?
burst weapons suffer from extreme inaccuracy. You can't judge a rapid fire weapon's dps based on damage to a mob.
EDIT: get it.. "judge" haha... i miss my judge PE :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trep
Silence infidel, you are allready controlled by Satan and his
evil point´n click game. Shame on you, i thought we get
married someday :mad:
I miss my Judge Pe too....
just for JINI
http://forum.neocron.com/showpost.ph...5&postcount=78
i hope your german is good...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnage
no its not, but i just saw Cs spreadsheet, so while you translate to me, ill say something else...Quote:
Originally Posted by nabbl
What I understand of it is:Quote:
Originally Posted by nabbl
As a rule, the reticule expands itself in every shot of the burst (from recoil or player movement), and you also have a higher level of inaccuracy and a slighter lower damage from the burst, than in a single shot weapon. We are already working on a solution for this problem.
Did I understand that correctly?
Well what I dont understand is, that if he really said that, how did he -as a Quality Assurance Manager- gave the green light to that game, or patch or guns that are affected or whatever? Besides I disagree. If that's what he said, reticle closes fine unless he referred to the pre 2.2 era.
As to the thread starter, Cmaster, that accused me of being the man standing in the corner with my ears shut :p, well C, here are some questions:
1. What is the result of your "study"? I look everywhere but I see no results nothing. I only see people jumping to conclusions, as they like fit. What is the single big issue that this study really solves and show us with all them numbers?
for example:
2600 dmg points difference between burst and single shot? remember that the Terminator is 6 TLs lower.Code:Terminator 87 154 140.76 120 10 91.4025974025974 914.025974025974 8.57142857142857 7834.50834879406
Pain Easer 93 151 37.093 279 30 24.5649006622517 736.94701986755 7.09923664122137 5231.7612860826
TL100 against TL105 and the Ionic Cannon wins? Whats up with the T-C Bonus?Code:ion Shotgun Cannon 100 156 166.266 42.5 8 198.439102564103 1587.51282051282 5.51020408163265 8747.51962323391
Cursed Soul 105 150 58.797 208 40 39.198 1567.92 4.43181818181818 6948.73636363636
questions and questions and even more questions -.-
Well I had a slight hope that you would be smarter than that, but unfortunatelly no. You play this game for so long, and yet you have not understand the basics of balance. To be more specific:
1. The PE, I have said that it needs a boost. Ther is really a chance that KK did blew it with this gun, but we dont need a scientific study to prove this. I have said it already by giving the destroyer example, so you violate open doors with that.... However the second example is... sad
2. You compare a high tech weapon against a low tech, thats like comparing apples and oranges. And you really think that you are a vet?
the answer to your nibish remarks: besides offense there is also defenses, aka armor and natural resists. So I ask: how easy is it to raise force/piercing damage over pure energy, or energy/xray? Why do you think they turned a pure xray weapon like the crossbow to energy weapon huh? Which classes have it easy to fortify against energy? and which are not?
Thats how you demand from kk to balance? by not even being able to understand games mechanics?
example: a spy can easily get 90 in piercing, but how easy can a tank get 90 in resist energy?
Sigh... great study.. but where are the results?
We been telling KK for months, that the job isn't done, there are holes that need fixing. For 2.2 Carnage had his milestone list and a deadline to get the the job done, and probably preasure from higher up to finish up so he could be assigned to work on Black Prophecy.Quote:
Originally Posted by jini
The problem is, KK haven't been working on Neocron for months...Or they have been working on Neocron, with very few resources. Or they could have everyone at KK working on Neocron. But KK's policy of telling the community hardly nothing is not helping. All we know is the upcoming patch is the F6 changes, but is that it? Will balancing come into it or not?
kk's Job was to balance the game and it did that in the most part, but, in the meantime it killed a class (Apus) and cretaed huge lag with this stupid grass thingy that you cant turn off. We cant level everything all the time...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brammers
Their only commitment as a company is to their shareholders, provided they have gone public, or to their board of directors if not. Since when a company reveals its plans to the public? And they have revealed more than enough already, but let's be fair here...Quote:
The problem is, KK haven't been working on Neocron for months...Or they have been working on Neocron, with very few resources. Or they could have everyone at KK working on Neocron. But KK's policy of telling the community hardly nothing is not helping. All we know is the upcoming patch is the F6 changes, but is that it? Will balancing come into it or not?
And their product is good and succesfull. Solid history of 5+ proves it.