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well, tbh, if its about time to end the reign of the "Uber" setup, then this is how we do it. For me, setups matter only in achieving the main skills like Dex levels for guns. Having -1 in agility wont make exactly the hell in differenceQuote:
Originally Posted by .hack//sign
Alternative 1.
Although 3 sounds tempting, if the loss based on /condition rather than condition/.
Setups will be gone anyways.Quote:
all my setups I spent time coming up with have gone right out the window.
There is no way around that when the way skills work is changed. (I.e. removing the skill hickups at higher level, aka the "with higher skill less effect"-bug)
Option one.
i have always wanted option 3
option 1 is just stupid. why even have a condition if they dont detiriorate
when your herk gets battered to hell and back you should sell it on the market for less than you payed for it and use that money to invest in a higher quality one meaning there is always a need for items in the economy.
option 3 is the best ONLY on the condition that items are only effected by there MAXIMUM quality not there current... then the more the item is used the lower its quality goes. and people will repair there armour and implants with reppers who have higher skills and less often
Option 1, there are better ways to make csted armor/imps worth it.
What I would do, is add slots to armor and imps and then let players mod items to customize the stats on it. So for armor you can, to a degree, choose to specialize in 1 resist or spread resists out. This is going to be even more useful with the new armor system.
For imps you can choose to mod them with small boni to things like agil, atl, resists, or subskills. This could also be used to offset the maluses on many imps, you can mod them to emphasize their functions or choose to negate their negatives.
Not a bad idea onero. i can imagine trade channel going "WTB 5 Slot SA! Paying OUT THE ASS!!!!" already.
another option is to make the imps break easier but not lose bonuses. then it pushes the trader aspect as people will need more things repaired more often. just a thought.
Unless you're radically changing how we obtain implants, this will only have an impact on the rarepart-only imps. All other imps are trivial to obtain in a xx/120 condition state.
If the goal is to make MC5 even more of a timesink, by all means choose something between Alternative 2-4.
If the goal is to have a true impact on gameplay, then either you're about to make a change in how construction skill impacts condition or you're about to radically alter how imps are created/sourced. Neither option sits well with me.
Seeing as how I don't believe you're going to "fix" the outstanding NC1 bugs, I'd really rather you just drop this altogether and focus on fixing NC1's bugs, therefore I vote Alternative 1.
P.S. Unless you radically alter implant creation/sourcing or impose character creation restrictions, none of the alternatives will have an impact on any of my characters, save possibly my MC5-using Hybrid Monk. I build or FSM-buy all the imps I use now. Push comes to shove, I retire the Monk.
Another problem with implants taking damage and then loosing the bonus is people just logging out on death.
It already sucks when people just lay around for ages waiting for their beloved PPU to rezz them but the whole implant problem would make it worse.
So either ditch the whole thing or give is a timer, i.e. after 10 minutes a dead guy will automatically respawn in his apartment.
mhmm
make all store bought imps only have 30-90 quality depending on where you get thema nd how much u pay (make outzone be dirt cheap low quality and make proper shops medium quality where as tech haven would be high quality. but user built items would be 120 quality
lowering subskill bonuses wont have that much effect on players apart from monk hybrids. most people spec over what they need to fire there weapons anyway and things like armour only have base stat requierments. maby freeze weplore and willpower and mst because again these are requiermnets to fire a weapon that peope spec the minimum amount. but apart from that degrading seems nice
make mc5's and such degrade much slower than normal so people are not constantly complaining.. or keep the degrading rate the same but make everybody happy and make them pop less often
This idea does make sense to have in-game but more the important thing most of you mustn't be thinking about is the impact any option other than #1 will have on the remaining population after the balancing is done. And the key words in that sentence are impact and remaining population.
Without even thinking of adding this timesync such as constantly repairing your implants every 2minutes for the sake of a bit of realism, how many extra techs are going to be added to the rare pool? With the current mob settings it's going to take considerably longer to farm techs, and at the current rate, death is going to happen much more quickly - so lots more death and annoyance when half your implants screw over.
-1 agility at a time doesn't particularly hurt THAT much, but if it's going to affect resists, and a whole bunch of other skills at once too, then those points all add up Neocron has always been a game where every little makes a difference, and still is in most areas.
Even more so: Think of how these sort of changes affect the general/new player, and particularly their newbie low level characters during the levelling process. So far the most people have been doing on the test server is seemingly running around on capped characters with the best armour they can wear and all artifact items; and we think the mobs are stronger? I wonder how they'll think of it all being a newbie with degrading skills and nothing but a Jones heal and a bit of armour that's artifact?
Adding extra nonesense timesyncs to the game for the sake of realism isn't the way forward. People need to be encouraged to play the game for what it is, preferably shooting each other rather than running around thinking "oh no, my implants are going to be wrecked, I don't want to waste yet another hour sat in TechHaven repairing all my gear" and the whole array of other reasons.
option 1 or...
maybe 3 if its 120/120<--- that matters and not -->120/120
also i think only after /60 imps should start degrading.
I dont want another big timesink. I want to PVP and PVE. Lately there hasnt been much PVP anywhere outside ops... please dont give me another reason to leave when i just got back.
Alt 5:
Implants repair up to 120/120 instead of degrading after repairs, but implants still degrade in bonus's excluding main skills. This means that a user who has an implant at 0/120 can rep it to 120/120.
Also GM's replace stolen items :D
However I don't see you implimenting that! HA So....how about LEAVE IT ALONE!? Alt 1. Why? Because I don't like the idea of replacing my implants! It will push up the market and place more pressure on MC5, which will just be a pain in the arse!
I'd love that to a limited degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by onero S
csted items having 1 slot; armour allowing you to add 10% of the normal resistance in one damage line, imps allowing you to add 5 (random number, not enough to make a major difference but enough to matter) to a sub skill.
Whatever you do don't let it effect mainskills.
Even though we still know very little of all the changes that will take effect in evolution 2.2, I still find it hard to see how this “Implant scaling based on item quality” needs to be implemented at this point and time?
Since no one really knows how the other changes (changes that pretty most have been expecting and craving for, for a long time) will work out, why not wait and see how the major and more critical issues have been solved and what side-effects come from those...
Armour would have to have so many slots to make it useful so that would require either armour to have 5+ slots, or buying/building alot of armour!Quote:
Originally Posted by onero S
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zheo
Not really.
Armour exactly the same now, but with the option of adding a little to one damagetype.
I don't think he is asking for armour to have 0 resists until slotted.
Well you wouldnt make the armor stats depend on the slots only. I'd rather want armor slots to give slight extra resists up to a maximum of maybe 5 resist points per mod. So you could still compete without having to get the best equip possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zheo
Quote:
Originally Posted by SorkZmok
yea, 0 slot armor would be 95% as effective as 5 slotted armor. But for instance, lets say you were worried about PSR, if you put a PSR mod on every peice of your armor you could get a good 30 bonus poison that way, so having 5 slotted armor wouldn't make or break you, but generaly you'd want at least a couple of slots on armor.
And obviously the effectivness of the mods can be tweaked, its more just the idea that I was suggesting.
I must say that Alternative 1 is the old way but...NO.
I am going with Alternative #2. I think that it really brings out more of the game that it is. A lot of people posting have ideas that don't take into more of the real elements that take place.
For instance, if you are wearing armor and it starts wearing down, would you be able to take more bullets? Of course, because your armor is beat up a bit more.
If not #2, #3 or #4 is just fine.
Is the option4 the one that affects the negative of the implant ?
If yes then i vote for that.
First its a good design.
Second, if anyone worries about not being able to move because you get a few more -ath or something we have to not consider whatever the person says. He has no clue at all.
Third, i think anything that affects the (+) positive/bonus aspect of implants is a big NO NO. Were not talking armor here, ppl defenetly base setups on the bonuses of imps. Think about TC, wich is directly linked to runspeed.(of course runners want to have as much as they can in agil)
Affecting mainskill bonuses is out of question.
Now the only downside i see to that is that its gonna create implant bugs, of the likes of the "i-see-my-imp-127/120 or the trade-me-to-see-if-broken"
As far as the whole project, i think the aim is to keep bugs to a minimum ?
Keep that in mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOD OF HELL
If you want realism spec 0 in all resists so you die in a few shots.
I'd rather have a fun game.
Going off topic with all this armour garble...
There's already enough items that people whine about losing when they die, which results in them zone whoring, and be unneccessarily PPU buttplugged over (with DB+Paraspam) so they don't die. And now people are talking about introducing armour where slots decide how effective the resists are? All that will do is add another end-game requirement which people will cry over when they lose their 5 slot piece of armour.
If armour was given slots and in my preference the maximum amount of slots should be either 1 or 2, the only difference it should have over unslotted armour is the ability to use a condition modifier. These condition modifiers would take the armour condition above the standard 120/120, so the advantage is only that the armour will last longer than normal armour and require less time repairing it in the beginning.
As hinted above though, the problem with Neocron over the last couple of years is that people don't want to lose their precious items however low level/worthless they may be, which results in lame PvP such as zone whoring, clip whoring and using every E-word in the book in order to cheat death. Adding more precious items will make things worse in that respect.
Having said that, I wouldn't mind an optional set of unique 'blank' armour that has no resist types except possibly a bit of energy or something by default, and can get the full 5 slots to then be modded to your own preference. The other armours would remain with just the condition boosting mods. Being able to mod every piece of armour with extra resists just seems like an easy way to make your character more uber without sacrifice (unless of course the resist boosting mods give penalties in another area as well).
The blank armour could have quite a lot of modifiers (some possibly only usable on a particular armour type (ie. helmet, vest, etc) to help make particular setups that bit more reachable. For example, you could have less armour resists but more skill in say Vehicle Use or Agility. The Modifiers would range from giving bonuses to all the various levels (int, str, con, dex, psi) and then the various subskills, not forgetting resists.
As long as those modifiers are balanced together according to the other armour types and classes, it might add that bit of variation that was talked about but doesn't yet seem to be all that achievable.
@God Of Hell: You've seen that newbie in the other thread asking why Neocron is so empty, at the moment this whole idea should be flushed down the toilet as it'll add to making things much worse for the casual and even PvPing players. As you've mentioned (I think it was you at least), quite a few of those players have either stopping playing Neocron or been banned. I agree with mccaff.
Most people can't be bothered logging their tradeskiller (me included if I still had mine) for people they don't know (such as random newbies), there's no real profit in it anymore. We already spend too much of our own time with the various Neocron grinds to get cash or rares. That's one reason people come and go, the economy favours the rich, which leaves new people screwed these days. Good look to those casual players/newbies in finding people to research, then construct, and no doubt repair those items not long after because of the choices made here.
Might start a quick thread about the newbie situation at some point and hope it gets listened to for balancing.
I like the idea of Alternative 3, however I think the 'negatives' are still a bit harsh especially when some of us have taken literally years to obtain a single MC5 cpu.
So, instead of:
I think there should be no quality deprivation between Artifact and Good, only once it reaches the 'bad' status then have reductions in place. Also I think 'shabby' quality should be a factor of 0.8 rather than 0.75.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Doe
I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think that armor slots would neccisarily become a huge end game hastle.Quote:
Originally Posted by unreal
1) No armor is rare, that means you can use slotties on armor
2) The boni will be small enouph, that although having no slotted armor and having 5 slotted will be a big jump, the guy who builds 3 slotted armor and the guy who has all 5 will not have a large difference between them.
Option 1.
But since the majority say option one, and a few have said option 3, kk is going to choose 3. And in this case, make sure its based off of MAXIMUM CONDITION not minimum.
and just to make it stated again... (in regards to removing hard caps on weapons)
REMOVE BUILD CAPS OFF NON RARE WEAPONS/SPELLS.
Option 1 to avoid more unnecessary time sinks, but if this is not an option (!), then I would vouch for option four.
option 1 for sure. Implant penalties are rediculess. You work hard for these good chips and now we are gona need multiples of each. no way.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian
option 1 all the way.
i can see the reason for doing the other options but the problem with takin away or giving imp/armor bonuses based on condition makes the game less based on skill and more based on items. nc has always been based on skill and not on items.
i mean ok u need to spend some time gettin decent slotted stuff and sure it helps to have all 5 slotted shit but a guy with 2 slotted weapons can do just as good as somebody with 4 slotted weapons.
if u wanna do some kinda bonus loss for imp/armor condition then make it so u can repair to 120/120. nc wont be more cyberpunk/hardcore if u away bonuses when condition gets low, because u will have a few ppl with more bonus advantage so it will just make nc less based on skill.
i see that u r tryin to keep the current content alive with this idea; i.e. go back to mc5 if ur imps get shitty etc but it gets old and annoying after a few dozen times. ppl dont wanna relive the same shit over & over they want new stuff.