Ok I'm confused again Lupus - are you saying that if the total % of the skills involved are lower, then it is easier to cap?
E.G. X: 50%, Y: 25% (total 75%) is easier to cap than X: 60%, Y: 35% (total 95%)?
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Ok I'm confused again Lupus - are you saying that if the total % of the skills involved are lower, then it is easier to cap?
E.G. X: 50%, Y: 25% (total 75%) is easier to cap than X: 60%, Y: 35% (total 95%)?
The actual amount you have in one of the "statistics", ie: the points you have in construction, or the amount of health you have, is not simply based on the percentages of the skills you have.
The points you have in each skill only work towards the flip point, and then to the cap. In my calculations for NeoSkiller, the points in HLT flip at 100, and increasingly contribute less to the final value above that. However, the points for CON flip at 70, and the formula that gives the eventual value means that the lower the flip point is, the more the skill points you have in it contribute to the final value.
What does this mean? Well, in reality, HLT points give around 2.25 points of health each, and CON points give around 1.6 points, far from the half that the guide suggests.
So don't believe that the figures here give you a way to work out how much to put in each skill to cap it out. The figures here are only the ending multiplier for the calculated value of the skill, before they're added together to give your final figure. There's an entire step before that, and it can give a radically different figure than the amount of skill points you put in.
Hope I've explained things clearly enough and not given out information I shouldn't have.
AlphaGremlin
No. X 50% + Y 25% is a nerf compared to X 60% + Y 35%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siygess
Tho when this is done, in most cases (atleast with weapons) you won't notice it as you need a set amount of X + Y and sometimes Z for other things. Like the AIM on Pistols. You may notice the effect right off the bat, as AIM is now more inline with your other stats, but it will be capped when the rest of the stats are capped.
Some stats on certain things were too easy to cap compared to the others, so they were adjusted to be closer to the others.
Surely the "flip point" (ie rate change) effect should be applied after the "hidden stat" calc.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaGremlin
It is. The aim of this guide is to show you what skills are involved in the calculations, and their relative value. If you want to look at it another way. Take the skill that has the highest % and consider that 100% and figure out the others value based on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jernau
I.e. If (X = 60% & Y = 30%) then (X = 100% & Y = 50%) or (2 x Y = 1 x X)
I'm not sure what you mean by the hidden stat calculation, but the way I'm doing it (and I may be wrong, but Stamina and Health are spot on, so I'm doing something right), the flip point calculation is done BEFORE the Skills Guide figure comes into it.
They're simple division and multiplication calculations below the flip, so the order is not important, you can swap stuff around easily (thus Lupus is right below the flip, if I understand correctly).
The Skills Calculation ABOVE the flip point is not a simple divide and multiply though, so you can't rearrange them that easily. Above the flip, the figure from the Skills Guide is applied afterwards (ie: (Result of Flip Calculation) * Skills Guide Figure + other skill results = End Figure)
Regardless of the formulas specifics, the point I'm trying to make is that the relative values they have (the points they contribute towards something) are not exactly the values given here.
AlphaGremlin
Are you taking into effect the base values in your calculations? Ie the fact all characters start with so much health?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaGremlin
Ans yes they are the values given here. These are ripped straight from the file that sets it.
But then you've removed information ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus
@alpha - If the rate change is applied last you can reduce the number of calculations. You would need to have information that's hard to obtain by reverse-engineering though to get it working right. That doesn't mean your method is flawed, just that the game gets there by a different and more efficient route.
Yup, I have the base values in the calculations. And I'm saying that the values in whatever file you have are only the final part of the calcluation, and the flip point changes the values that go into it! I'll send you my excel file if you want, Lupus, and you can see for yourself! It has the calculations I have done for the Health, Stamina, PSI and Free Load.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus
Believe me, it took hours and hours with my calculator to work out what formula you guys used above the flip point, and then to work out the approximate flip points themselves. I reverse engineered nothing.
AlphaGremlin
@Lupus: What does this mean?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus
Well it's like this, I'm used to how the formulas are coded in this game, I've figured out enough of them and I have formula's from different things straight from the source code of the game. Thing is I'm also unable to discuss them as I'm under NDA on stuff like that. So unfortunately I won't be able to continue with a discussion like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaGremlin
As for the Drone stuff, I'll make all that a little clearer later on, possibly today tho I can't promise anything since I have to do some digging for that info.
No sweat mate :) I'm still interested in the Drone info though, waiting for that eagerly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus
AlphaGremlin
Alpha - no offence but you really ought to look up "reverse engineering" as that's exactly what you did. It's quite an impressive feat to be fair considering the way NC works. I've considered doing it a few times and shuddered at the prospect.
I am mainly talking about basic combat balance between the weapon systems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Siygess
AoE and other effects/bonuses are a separate issue and should (in general) be balanced seperately.
WEP is the primary stat in all weapon systems concerning range, thus it is the main skill that determines the 'arena of influence' that any given weapon system abides by, including melee (no WEP, 'no' range). The dissadvantage that a weapon system suffered from it's 'limit of exploitation' (nice military term there) was countered by the ability to spec other points, such as more psu, imp or hack.
By 'forcing' people to spec more WEP you will remove that.
The then increased combat power of the pistol users will be somewhat contested against, as virtually all combat is fought in close up.
I basically believe that all the weapon types should be equal in close combat, ability to extend thier influence beyond that should be represented by extra skilling.
Though pistols may be 'balanced' with rifles (in that pistol now spec as much WEP as riflers, and gain a more concentrated but short range offensive style countering the long range, slightly weaker rifles) it just feels awkward and riflers will become even less seen on the battle field.
The number of secondary tradeskills will also fall considerably, I don't know whether I will be a 115 poker anymore..
OmG love your post and everything you say is what I feel, too. Makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dribble Joy
/backs away slowly...Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthyAssassi
I don't agree unfortunately and I have multiple reasons for why I don't.
1) The class of weapon is used by PE's & Spies
2) a TL100 Weapon is 20TL's over the Cap of a PE, Where as the highest for a Spy is 13TL's over.
3) The lines between Offensive Setup, Defensive Setups, Tradeskilling Setups needs to be unblurred. Arguing that a Pistol PE may lose their ability to Implant at TL115 if they want to completely cap a weapon thats 20TL's over their DEX Cap is not a valid issue to me. Especially when it wasn't even an option before no matter how much they put towards the weapon.
4) I can not cater to one play style out of many especially when I'm dealing with 2 classes and the one making the most noise is the lesser of the two.
It's a balance issue. If I boost Pistol PE's to the point where they can completely cap a TL100 HighTech Pistol & Implant at 115, What happens to the Spies? Those who push their limits and strive for either as much damage, or as much defense need to have an advantage over those who want to be able to do everything especially when they're the lower class.
The only part of the community that seems to really push for this it seems are those who try to push those limits and don't get any benefit. Like the people who spec 250 in CST and don't like the fact that someone with 150 can do as good as them with the exception of slot chances and speed.
As I stated in a thread in the new runner section, I am more or less in favour of specialisation, simply because it does NOT allow us to do everything we want to. We are forced by it to make choices and sacrifices if we want to go full combat or full tradeskill or anywhere inbetween.
So yes I would be in favour of this change to pistol freq calculation, but only if it didn't effect the balance between rifles and pistol in the way that it will.
Pistollers WILL be at an advantage to riflers in any encounter where they both can engage each other. That is where I don't like this.
Obviously this is my personal opinion so it is completely dissmissable, but I would rather pistols and rifle be equal in thier basic combat effectiveness, and abilities above and beyond that to be represtented by additional skilling.
Rifles vs Pistols suffer from other issues and if they weren't ingame the whole idea of WEP wouldnt really be that much of an issue. when you compare MC to PC and RC, your forgetting the fact that AGL is to MC what WEP is to PC & RC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dribble Joy
Are the vehicle weapons considered like heavy weapons? Or are there seperat formulas?
@Sophie: I'm 99% sure that HC includes the vehicle mounted weapons.
@Lupus: Before you read the rest of this post, I want to make it clear that, as usual, we (I) appreciate the hard work that you have put into NC2 so far, especially the new skill guide and % distribution. However..
Quote:
I can not cater to one play style out of many especially when I'm dealing with 2 classes and the one making the most noise is the lesser of the two.
You see, things like that really tick me off - It implies that A) The PE is an inferior class because he does not have any stats that cap at 100 and B) The concept of the so-called"lower" class is entirely flawed and poorly thought out because the sum of it's flexibility is not be allowed to equal the sum of a specialised character.Quote:
Those who push their limits and strive for either as much damage, or as much defense need to have an advantage over those who want to be able to do everything especially when they're the lower class.
Its like saying 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 + 20 shouldn't be allowed to equal 100 because 25 + 75 also equals 100.
I understand that the PE's must make it much more difficult to balance skills and classes in a system that is perhaps increasingly encouraging specialisation, but KK really needs to sort it out. If the template for the PE doesn't fit with NC2's roadmap, then for goodness sake, rebuild the PE template or scrap it altogether.
Roll on "PE" week, thats what I say :(
5.2. 1 Private EyeQuote:
Originally Posted by Siygess
The Private Eye is not specialized in any particular area. All his skills are relatively weak at the beginning, yet equally developed. A player choosing this class for his character strives for equal skill levels in all areas, but must be aware or the fact that he can never be as good in any one skill as a class specializing in that particular area.
Strengths:
• No real weaknesses
• Versatility
Weaknesses:
• Equality in all skill levels, but limited in their development
• No real specialties.
A Judge using PE was the basis point for reworking the Pistol skills. In fact I used the info I was given in the thread where I requested player setups for most of the reworks.
With that said I took a PE that was had a setup that leaned towards as much pistol boosting implants as they could get, not including Pistol Combat booster 3, nor any drugs. Then with the exception of DEX since that has to be a minimum of 100, I took 90% of what I got PC & WEP wise and adjusted the skills so that it would be enough to cap the Judge.
That still leaves room for those PE's who want to reach for even higher since they have an additional 10% or so ontop plus they can get into using drugs, and high level PPU buffs as well.
Tradeskilling at a TL115 level as well as capping a weapon that is 20TL's over what your character reaches base wise is I'm sure likely to be possible with the right setup and access to things like Op's or lvl3 buffs, or drugs. However those areas are where you're on you're own when it comes to PE's.
My only concern is that it will hurt spies (btw i have both rifle and pistol spies and pe's). We don't want to see it hurting the tradeskillers, but i see your point about having to balance it with PE's too.
And no matter what people say i think spies are still weaker than PE's even though a spy is more fun to play. Spies have paper armor besides their Xray resist from PA and Energy resist from Heavy Energy Protection Belt. Excluding the insanely high xray resist spy PA gives, a PE can easily get much higher armor resists even 10 lvl's before STR cap.
People will say use drugs and zerk2 and moveon etc. for inq 1. But really i hate the fact that a spy has to use nightspider for shelter just to be competitive, which if we read the class description you'd think a spy wouldn't have to drug for shelter anyways.
Basically what i mean is for a spy to be more powerful it has to specialise, and it can't have any decent armor if it goes along this path of using combat implants.
Anyways sorry for going off topic, and great work Lupus, i know the community can't say it enough. :)
True, its either taking lots of drugs, implanting lots of strength implants instead of combat implants or doing a bit of both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Netphreak
Yeah, and if you try to do abit of both then your combat strength is weaker than a PE and your armor is alot weaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthyAssassi
Glad you understood what i was saying, as i wasn't too sure if people would understand my point.
Anyways of to test the patch then we can make up our minds about it.
Aren't we missing the melee frequency equasion?
That's impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaGremlin
It's so rare you see people ...actually, trying.
These days it's just skill managers heh..
Lupus;
I'm not going to pass judgement on these changes until I get ingame.
Though looking at it, I do feel a tad concerned.... (remember specialisation?)
We'll have to see though, I do have faith in ya...
Never been one.Quote:
Originally Posted by whifix
Damned blasted one hour edit rule :p
6minutes.
Jeez.
Anyway;
After altering my setup to this patches version of what it was last patch, I've lost 20% aiming, and gained 40/min. (ok 37/min).
I love that WEP is now more useful.
However you mighta overdone it a little bit ;)
Amen to this. But if and when we have a rifles theme week. is the need for less WPL for capping the dizzy and healing light reasonable now? cause i have (base) 140WPL and (imp'ed/buffed lvl 1) 189RC and that pushing it as a spy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupus
So what benefits are rifles seeing out of this. its nice to see pistols are yet again WAY to easy.
I hope to god this is only a first step along the road of balance tweaking ... if it stays as it is now without further fine tuning we might be rather screwed.
Dear old tankehs now have the aim of pistols, the range of rifles, and the damage of APUs.
Sure - HC prior to the patch needed *some* work, but it's a tad overdone.
Oh - and the freeing up of HC points now means HC tankehs can easily spec for a melee shocker as well.
Great :rolleyes: