The Big Weapon Study [unfinished]

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14-11-07, 17:24
jini

Quote:

Originally Posted by nabbl

fuckin 90% of all the weapons arent even usable. and u call it balanced?

did u ever see bugging lowtech speed tanks in op fights? i can kill everybody with my overpowered ion shotgun cannon, spies dont have a chance even with shields on them, im fast as hell, nobody hits me and i have so much constitution that im always down the sync before im dieing.

that is NOT BALANCED AT ALL...

There has never been a SINGLE tank on this server I wasn't able to hit. Tank tha I hit and dies? many. That they go in ug or they clip? many as well. But this is clipping and also this has to do with the tank being able to hide its canon and leg it. Big deal, and great help to the rest. I have never had ANY problems with these tanks ever. Sooner or later I will hit them and kill them. Which 90% of the weapons are bugged? I'm playing both with rifles and pistols. So which of them are bugged?

Quote:

and its not only the tanks, what about Riggers? Riggers can easily level down there in the ceres labs and cap themselves, make money, rare parts and woc discs in short periods of time.

that is NOT BALANCED AT ALL...

Nabbl you act like a noob. You are being a bit melodramatic. If we are speaking for pvp balance, then the droner has no place except maybe with kamikazes @ pp1 :p If we talk about droners and mc5, well it was allways like this, what's the big deal? Who makes a droner to pvp? Only nibs

Quote:

the weapons are NOT balanced, the classes are NOT balanced and youre wondering y all the people left from terra and quit the game? -.-

So, on Mars you have enforced some very special rules like:
1. USE only CS
2. No Hab
3. No clip?
If so, I'll start p[laying on Mars right away...

@Sir William:
Nice arguments Sir William... you went to all this trouble just to say I suck in pvp? Well try harder next time w/o too much maths in the equation and a lot more real fights. Better yet, try playing some OP fights, because the real problem is:

THAT 90% OF THE SERVER plays or "fights" in pp1 instead of OP fights. Just look at the map
14-11-07, 17:31
Brammers

Jini, you missed the point completely. This isn't about clipping or hit boxes, or your ability to shoot tanks.

It's to do with pure numbers which are not adding up.
14-11-07, 17:38
William Antrim

Jini as soon as you said "I can-" the validity of your point became moot at best. Your powers are weak old man...

Basically this is a scientific test - ie completely unbiased - you are saying "I can" you are by the very nature of the test, corrupting the data.

It is not about what YOU can or cannot do. Noone gives a shit, because if we did you would have told us all 4 times on ooc by now anyway. :D
14-11-07, 17:41
jini

But this is exactly where I object god damn it!
It's not just numbers. It never was just numbers. Furthermore I never really cared about numbers. I just took the weapons and tried them in pvp. In real pvp.

When I hear comments from this guy (Sir mafia) saying that his spy with PPU support dies in 4 shots from a tank, well all I will say Sir mafia, go play WoW.

For example: how do you incorporate Spy/PE stealth into your pvp equation? Can a tank do this in a fight?
14-11-07, 17:49
jini

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Antrim

Jini as soon as you said "I can-" the validity of your point became moot at best. Your powers are weak old man...

Basically this is a scientific test - ie completely unbiased - you are saying "I can" you are by the very nature of the test, corrupting the data.

It is not about what YOU can or cannot do. Noone gives a shit, because if we did you would have told us all 4 times on ooc by now anyway. :D

Sir William are you on drugs or are you on booze or something?
What now, you are also a scientist except a Sir?
In any case, the originator of this "scientific exercise" said already that he took data from individuals like you and me. I am not corrupting the data sir, I am contributing ...

On the other hand, you want to raise rifles? Raise them and create superspy hordes using stealths... and then we will see who will be more powerfull, ion tank? or the HL spy?
14-11-07, 17:52
nabbl

yeah he can jini... at the moment he can sync into the ug, take the GR, clip around trees, run away with highspeed... there are so much possibilities for a tank that hes not gonna die.

so now jini. go and test:

-slasher vs. xbow
-rolh vs. craftmans dream
-desperado vs. FL
-CS vs. ionic shotgun cannon
-RoG vs. Ionic shotgun Rifle

and so on ...

u can be as good as u want in aiming and so on. u dont have a chance killing someone with a burst weapon.
14-11-07, 17:56
$ir Mafia

Na, i�m not playing a Spy, was talking out of a Tanks view.

but: i think it�s pointless to go any further.
You�re not able to stay on the ground in any
conversation and it looks like theres is no way
that you could be wrong with anything.

If you get killed in any fight, you talk a lot of BS so that
it looks like you won and ask for standing ovations.
Farewell, i�ll go and buy a box of WoW, Caveman told me to do so.
14-11-07, 17:58
William Antrim

In response to your reply about "going op fighting" - Jini old son, I was opfighting while you were still crapping in your pants and rubbing it on your face.

He alleviated the "skill" by saying that the two people were IMMOBILE, ie not moving or clipping or all the other bs youre spouting. This is purely about the damage vs a standard yard stick (in this case a fully buffed ppu and all guns tested on ONE control subject).

You're Greek arent you? I would have thought that one of you blokes at least would have an idea of the concept of science chief. Lets put the petty insults down eh. Im not on booze, or drugs, I am at work and reading an interesting discussion that has been long overdue on the subject of damage from weapons in NC.

I understand the concept of a fair test indeed. It seems I am not alone as virtually everyone else in the thread here is in agreement.

BALANCE has to start with pure maths, or where CAN it start? Please answer that.
14-11-07, 18:07
jini

I wish I could, but its not easy for PEs to try those other pistols, and I dont have a pistol spy. If I had my weapon of choice would have been the beretta and nothing else. But that doesnt mean that to someone else the Rolh wouldnt be the first choice either. From what I know the Rolh is real nice.

Nowadays, my spy is ONLY using burst weapons like the AK and the FL. When there are too many involved in the fight the FL doesnt cut it, but this happens due to the origin of the weapon in that you need to constant aim it, so i change it for a HL. But I still ue the AK. You know what an AK does to an unbuffed tank...

And if you are really the best in aiming, then nothing beats FL/CS.
Now against a tank: As soon as the tank takes out his cannon to shoot, he becomes slow and easy to aim. Dev means jack shit in OP fights, there is no way a Dev tank can beat my spy there, so he has to use something else. Creed or Ion. Ion is good, creed is for the very best(Zheodaine)
Either way when I am supported correctly by a ppu nothing can kill my spy, and if I am in danger I can allways stealth, calm down and return full HP.

Now the tank can clip yes, and I have said that this is a real problem for that game, and also I have said that us players shpuld try and avoid those cheap ass tactics like these, but what more can I say besides that? KK should try and do something about the clipping but its not part of the equation or, it wasnt meant to be
14-11-07, 18:22
jini

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Antrim

In response to your reply about "going op fighting" - Jini old son, I was opfighting while you were still crapping in your pants and rubbing it on your face.

He alleviated the "skill" by saying that the two people were IMMOBILE, ie not moving or clipping or all the other bs youre spouting. This is purely about the damage vs a standard yard stick (in this case a fully buffed ppu and all guns tested on ONE control subject).

You're Greek arent you? I would have thought that one of you blokes at least would have an idea of the concept of science chief. Lets put the petty insults down eh. Im not on booze, or drugs, I am at work and reading an interesting discussion that has been long overdue on the subject of damage from weapons in NC.

I understand the concept of a fair test indeed. It seems I am not alone as virtually everyone else in the thread here is in agreement.

BALANCE has to start with pure maths, or where CAN it start? Please answer that.

Sir William I never even remotelly thought you were kinky as well :p
Anyway, obviously (I guess) they begun teh balance by doing some maths. I also remind you, that there has been one 10% nerf in damage, before clipping was introduced in such a big extent as it is by now.
In short, I gather that kk or he who codes, knows at least the elementary school maths needed to do the balance job. And from my own point of view and the fights I have been given I consider the game balanced and playable at the least. I also deposit the fact that I play my Spy in OP fights 90%. So now get your own conclusions.
14-11-07, 18:25
nabbl

hm then plz explain me. why is nearly nobody using burst weapons anymore?

because the weapons are just fine but the style is shit? did you test the pain easer yet? or maybe the equilibrium?

ure just talking about your own point of view... like u got the best aim, master of the first love. didnt u realize that laser weapons just like creed, HL and so on dont register dmg from time to time? especially when the enemy is fast? the same with beam and ray weapons... just for your informations.

pulselaser and gatlin weapons are complete shit too, because most of the time the bullets will not hit the target even when your aim is closed on the enemy. even carnage declared that there IS a problem with random "failshots".

the ak47 and FL got small bursts... so they are close to singleshot weapons.
14-11-07, 18:45
jini

Of course I am talking out from my own personal view. All I have -and you know it- is a pistol PE and a rifle Spy.

The pain easer does suck, and I wouldnt prefer it over an ioninc rifle for example, but I am a spy. I dont know how that rifle handles on a low tech PE so I cant present an opinion there, What I DO know is, the fact that when destroyer was using it he sucked, and when we told him to switch to a termi he was real good. So 2 things we can say: 1. either that destroyer is bad using burst weapons, or 2. the rifle is a failure. So tell me, how can we balance? Who can tell that destro is good using burst weapons nad that the rifle sucks? Who will be the judge of it? Maths?

Dissruptor is a real good rifle and you are wrong. It has one major disadvantage though, and that is that you dont have -like the HL does- a connection effect when it connects to the enemy. You dont have this reassurment, so I dont like that. But its still very powerfull.

The gatlins rifles I dont like for a different type of reasons,but since most of them are new, I dont have them yet, and 2, I dont know how to use them either. So maybe its just you and me we cant use and nothing is wrong with them. Certainly its not just a matter of maths though we can all understand that. Maths is the easiest thing to do. What matters is all the rest, or the general "feel" factor you get from when you use a weapon.

And dont give cheap excuses that FL/AK are not burst guns. If so, then what is the difference of a FL<>CS ? And I was never bugged using HL NEVER. Neither is Zheodaine using a creed... How does that happen?
14-11-07, 19:32
William Antrim

You cannot seriously say to me that "because thedestroyer can use a terminator it means that the terminator is fine" and expect me to believe that statement Jini, really.

Everyone, bar you, drew the same conclusions to the data presented in this thread. Do you honestly believe our logic is flawed as opposed to your own? o_O
14-11-07, 19:47
nabbl

Quote:

Originally Posted by jini

Of course I am talking out from my own personal view. All I have -and you know it- is a pistol PE and a rifle Spy.

The pain easer does suck, and I wouldnt prefer it over an ioninc rifle for example, but I am a spy. I dont know how that rifle handles on a low tech PE so I cant present an opinion there, What I DO know is, the fact that when destroyer was using it he sucked, and when we told him to switch to a termi he was real good. So 2 things we can say: 1. either that destroyer is bad using burst weapons, or 2. the rifle is a failure. So tell me, how can we balance? Who can tell that destro is good using burst weapons nad that the rifle sucks? Who will be the judge of it? Maths?

Dissruptor is a real good rifle and you are wrong. It has one major disadvantage though, and that is that you dont have -like the HL does- a connection effect when it connects to the enemy. You dont have this reassurment, so I dont like that. But its still very powerfull.

The gatlins rifles I dont like for a different type of reasons,but since most of them are new, I dont have them yet, and 2, I dont know how to use them either. So maybe its just you and me we cant use and nothing is wrong with them. Certainly its not just a matter of maths though we can all understand that. Maths is the easiest thing to do. What matters is all the rest, or the general "feel" factor you get from when you use a weapon.

And dont give cheap excuses that FL/AK are not burst guns. If so, then what is the difference of a FL<>CS ? And I was never bugged using HL NEVER. Neither is Zheodaine using a creed... How does that happen?

all your post is about: "I dont really have a clue what im talking about".

and jini i have to say: YOU ARE RIGHT!
14-11-07, 20:43
CMaster

Could we just ignore the man in the corner with his fingers in his ears shouing "lalala I'm not listening" and get on with the matter at hand?
We have shown that the balance promised by 2.2 is nowhere near achevied. However there are several possible holes in this study that nobody has got on yet. Is anyone going to collect more data? What do we think this really means? Obviously we shouldn't have a perfectly straight line for damage/TL - a shotgun needs something to make up for its short range...

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