yay genji!, u still play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Genji
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yay genji!, u still play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Genji
Right, as far as this argument on WoC goes, and balance goes. It's broken, WoC is making the unbalanced game even more unbalanced.
Now I'm going to follow the advice of a fellow NC player, posted much earlier in this thread.
I'm off for some peace and quiet in Techhaven....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hell-demon
Every post ive made on the subject is about how woc has changed the game historically. I played when it was introduced and i stuck to my judge and my disruptor and my other weapons that werent woc religiously. ALL the way through getting my ass handed to me by crossbow pes and everything else that came along. I watched friends quit because they didnt have time to grind to woc on their pes as they were the most fun classes to play for plenty of people. I watched other friends quit because as long time monk players they got no woc weapons.
I watched others roll tanks because they could get woc and i watched others get banned because they figured a way to get woc without actually following the letter of the law.
The game needed fixing long before Woc but all woc did was make it worse, that is the whole point I have been trying to get across for a long time and honestly i think the blind crusade is true as if its only taken 20 odd posts for you to realise the point im making then blind is an apt description.
The TL 100 guns need balancing to start with and dmg needs to be standardised. Tanks should get something akin to a 5% dmg buff for a trade of off of 5% run speed reduction. Agility needs to be taken out of the equation altogether and athletics should be the only runspeed tangible.
The other classes (pistol pes and spies and probably monks too) should get a 5% runspeed boost for having smaller weapons and 5% nerf somewhere else possibly to keep in balance. Whatever one class gains they should lose something else to balance it up. Maybe Monks can get a 5% dmg boost on spells that require a stationary cast of a few seconds.
Everyone should be on the same page damage wise and it should be based on tech level. This would make things so much easier to manage and you can pop out some new guns and items easily sticking with a simple formula like this. As all youd need to do is pop out some new guns with new skins and same damage as everything else, theyd already be balanced (mostly) with existing guns and would look different for the players.
Damage over time should be removed to start with until such time as it can be managed so as not to be over powered, or EVERYONE gets DoT effects from weapons and ALL are managed based on tech level also.
RoF should be scaled in accordance with damage, as RoF increases then damage should decrease imo. This way again you acheive balance. You have the single shot high damage guns and then the rapid fire low damage guns all doing similar damage. It makes it easier on people who dont have the skill to maintain a lock on the target. Possibly the high RoF weapons can have DoT on them to give the better skilled players a reward for their skills?
All of these are off the cuff ideas and no way should be set in stone. They are a starting point and should probably be EXTENSIVELY tested before anyone takes anything I have said seriously but yeah I think lots needs to change very soon.
I DO NOT WANT TO SEE WOC or any other "quick content fixes" brought anywhere near NC3 until such time as they are exhaustively tested by either A) in house testers or B) the community that is left.
This is a wish list. I have grown up with NC in my 20s. It is as I once wrote in an old post, like a gentlemans club where you see all the old faces from yesteryear, it has a cult status among the internet these days and it is loved and adored by many an aging veteran. I've met some great friends and some even greater enemies in this game and it has formed a large part of my gaming hobby for over 8 years now.
I do not want to see that memory sullied by half finished ideas no matter their source.
How about we let this thread get back on track by all agreeing that in theory woc is a good idea but only when they have balanced the other guns and that until then its just a load of extra weapons to try and balance. I wouldn't have a problem with WoC if they were just cool looking guns that weren't anymore powerful than non woc guns but right now you have to admit there are woc guns which are more powerful thus making them essential thus forcing people to grind when they don't want to.
And when they do finally balance the other guns properly so can reintroduce woc i would love to see some interesting looking tank and monk guns.
Below this line is a part as a reply, while halfway through, at the header balance, there is an actual response and constructive discussion on what to do better in nc3. William I'd like to ask to read these first points, as they relate to your post, for the rest of the discussion, the second part of the post is more interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by William Antrim
First Part
yep just as blind as still not getting the point I've been trying to make in every single post so far, backed up with actual current experiences and tests.
sod it, you're wrong about the effect of woc on the current game. You could be perfectly right about woc having been the reason for your friends to leave in the past, I never disagreed with you on that, but in the current state, woc is either irrelevant or in the case of the pe/pistols the only thing that comes close to actually being balanced.
as to being blind to your posts, in discussions I tend to assume that when other people reply to me, they are actually talking about the thing I'm talking about too, since discussions where two people are talking about two different things tend to be useless. This assumption that we were talking about the same thing did indeed make me "blind" to a lot of ur arguments, as I am in no way qualified to talk about how woc was introduced and what effect it had on the game back then, and still don't see the relevance of talking about that now if we're talking about how nc3 should be an improvement over the current game. (we also shouldn't make hybrids/monks as overpowered as they used to be, but seeing as that's no longer the case, we're not talking about that anymore)
Constructive Discussion of the balance
I think it's a good idea to base overall damage on TL, as that makes it much easier to balance, as it also allows for tradeoffs being made with gear that allows getting a certain tech level, and makes sure that certain trees of skills are used in making setups. I'm not sure how this would affect pe's though, because they cannot use the same TL weapons. But I guess this should be offset with their ability to use resists or speed (maybe this could be more improved by actually making PE psi shields effective instead of useless as they currently are?).
I think the 5% speed/damage variations are a bit low, as 5% speed is almost unnoticable, making a speed setup or a damage setup too close to eachother to be different setups (as in, it would result in setups being almost irrelevant, as there is almost no satisfaction in finding a good setup). I think current system of skill setups is good, as long as it is possible to achieve competitiveness with most styles of setups.
apu's and pe's getting a 5% speed and a 5% nerf seems counterproductive, how does this improve their viability? The only reason my apu is viable is because he's fucking fast (even with a woc pa ;)), imho it needs to get a damage or frequency increase, and some method of gaining some resistance (one or two bursts from most weapons brings down an apu, they only survive currently by clipping). Maybe monks should be made into three categories, Glass cannon (new apu), average damage, average protection (hybrid), and support (ppu). Currently the apu simply doesn't do much damage for it's fragility, the only viability coming from being able to dodge and clip. A dissy far outdamages an apu, even though a spy is far less fragile.
In the current state of the game, I have never had a problem with damage over time, but I spec psi-resist so that could be the reason I hardly suffer from DoT effects. If you mean by DoT that one burst of dissy fire remains on target if the first is on target, then you are right, as this is one of the reasons a disruptor is so overpowered, hardly any shots are missed with it.
I don't exactly know what you mean by RoF, but making not being able to aim (keep on target), is the skills aspect of the game, imho someone with skill should always win over someone without. For those that can't aim, there's always aoe, and maybe taken from other games, turrets/traps/mines, which require tactical thinking instead of aim.
As to powerleveling, I think being able to powerlevel is a good idea in a pvp oriented game such as neocron, but there should be some punishment, be it in money (like GA's booster packs), or making powerlevel incredibly boring, or expensive ingame wise (like legal powerleveling currently costs a huge amount of credits in repair nanites), and normal leveling interesting (for example by making missions give more xp, and adding interesting missions that still take a long time, no "gather 100 tusks").
But by far the most important and utterly necessary change in nc3, needs to be anti-cheat, and getting GM's that actually know about what is possible and what isn't in the game.
In the current state, the players are somehow held responsible for bringing forward the cheaters to get them banned, which in the current state doesn't even work because the GM's don't do anything with evidence that any person that is active in the game would see as valid proof.
It is the responsibility of the Developers and GM's to keep the gaming experience fair, and to remove disruptive forces, not the players' responsibility.
Being able to exploit/cheat is something that is probably the most important reason KK lost most of its customers, anti-cheat should always have been the priority, and is the biggest fail of KK, even more than their inability to learn from the community.
monk guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by DIABLO666
Everybody knows monks are getting bored with those gloves, they want somebody to develop a psi gun so they can really shoot the lightning at people!
I've noticed a little more troll & dispute in this thread recently..
Remember this thread was intended for suggestions and ideas for NC3. I'd hope that everyone try to keep disagreement posts to a minimum so that KK can read through with ease.
Why x person disagrees with y is likely irrelevant here.
KK can likely pick holes in peoples opinions themselves without causing a public community argument. This is why i usually avoid posting opinions/suggestions to devs on forums.. :p
Just my two cents
it all started with a debate on whether woc should be in NC3 as right now its a boring grind but essential as it has some very very potent weapons.
Basically, x blames woc for the current state of the game balance, while y disagrees that the balance was always broken, but x agrees that it was always broken, but still thinks woc is bad and shouldn't be introduced into NC3 because the entire concept of woc will most certainly destroy any kind of balance they implement in NC3 by introducing it.
Good point though Axis, how dare we discuss opinions in the Community Talk forum! Also, I don't see anything in the OP about how this thread is "intended for suggestions and ideas for NC3".
from y with love, tnx for the summary ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by flib
the OP was as far as I can see a "yay nc3" post ;) which on these forums automatically calls for cynics to ruin the mood by trying to be realistic ;) (see what I did there? harr harr)
The trouble is that they know exactly what is and isn't possible. The problem is that they can't simply ban people on what they might believe is cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biglines
What they need (like the police) is evidence. This evidence is actually VERY hard to come by.
Lag, server issues and the unknown quantities such as the relevant set-ups of the involved characters makes quantifiable judgements about an incident near impossible.
In short, they need what they have allways used/needed; Data on client manipulation that comes not from the game world, but from account info. Expanding this capacity to detect illicit behaviour needs two things: A) More GMs and/or server software/data investigation, B) A detection system that the last patch intended to bring forth.
kirk should update us
We're unlikely to see any kind of update until we get an actual game update.
I can't discuss the actual content of some of the videos I have provided to KK, but most of them are simply impossible. Just utterly impossible (I generally don't even bother with 90% of the ones that admit themselves that are cheating, since most of those do indeed not cheat enough to be provable). Cheating and Banevading has become "cool" amongs that community, there are people who publicly announce they are cheating, just to prove that in the past 6 months they still haven't been banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dribble Joy
plus, as far as we know, the last patch did absolutely nothing except change the filecheck a little bit, and use a default .net data encryption, both of which will probably break current cheats, but doesn't contain any heuristic checking for cheats (I read the cheater forums to stay updated on the people doing it and what they're doing).