Neocron Reloaded

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Originally Posted by CMaster

The second issue, we're going to need some images for. It's actually as big a part, if not bigger, of running around and around columns being good for dodging as NC's dodgy client-side clipping is. Imagine you are fighting somebody near a pillar, like in Pepper Park 1. As they run to the pillar to hide, we have a situation something like this:
http://cmaster.linxsoft.co.uk/images.../nc%20edu1.gif
The blue circle is you, the red the enemy, the pink is where YOU see the enemy as being.

In this situation, everything works out fine. Your client announces "I am firing at the Enemy with X% accuracy" the server does a check for line of sight and range and damages the enemy.

However, a second or two later, the situation has changed to something like this:
http://cmaster.linxsoft.co.uk/images.../nc%20edu2.gif

This time, the server notices that you don't have the line of sight, and your attacks do no damage. As the pair of you circle the pillar, this is how things are most of the time. You can't do much about it as the pursuer. Attempting to go ahead to where you would have genuine line of sight means that you lose the ability to target the player. Moving well ahead to ambush means you have to reacquire your lock again, by which time they are round a corner once again.

Now, something could be done about this with lag compensation, however you begin to see some of the dirty flaws in the system.

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I know the difference between clipping and the problem you are describing. The problem you are describing has nothing to do with the aiming system. You are describing a basic networking problem: lag, prediction, interpolation and authority. It has nothing to do with the neocron hitbox/reticule aiming system. UT, UDK, Source games, every FPS shooter has this problem. Sure, the problem is not that severe in games like UT and such, because the update rate is much higher, but it is still there. Usually what is done to approximately solve this problem is that the server interpolates back in time. It calculates the approximate position the enemy was at at the instant you shot at him and uses this position to determine whether the target has been hit or not. (I agree KK has to change the system such that a raycast/trace/hitscan is done for every single shot in a burst) Therefore there is not much of a problem there. You can read about the problem of lag compensation here.

The thing that you have to reacquire your lock when people run around corners is intended in this system and I personally like it. But currently the spread is much too high if you don't have a lock on a target. Requiring the lock for shots to hit is also not a good thing and should be changed. The target lock should "only" significantly lower your spread. Also the lock should be based on the collision model of the model not on the bounding box. Maybe we can agree on such a system? ;)

But I aggree, the current implementation of the system has severe flaws, you can shoot at a target, then turn around and still hit it. That's something which has to be fixed and definitely belongs into the category bugs. And once your target runs around the corner you simply will not hit it anymore, that's something which also has to be ensured, but in that case it doesn't make a difference whether you use the reticule or a classic fps based system. Every single shot should be traced.

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Originally Posted by Biglines

at least read my posts before just dismissing every point out of hand. The point is, if the aiming mechanic is replaced by a hitscan without anything else, every gun as currently in the game will be pretty much the same. Of course in games like ut or Serious Sam, where you have only 10 weapons, and they are very differentiated, the gameplay is different. But this is not how neocron works at the moment.

and changing it to hitscan, but also completely changing the rest of the game to allow for this hitscan mechanic (as it seems you are proposing), won't make it neocron reloaded, it will make it nc3, since every single part of the game will have to be changed.

Like I said in my post, I have absolutely no problem with going for hitscan, hitscan optimised weapons, hitscan optimized skills, hitscan optimized environments, hitscan optimized gameplay for neocron 3.

It is however absolutely impossible to just switch out recticle based aiming with hitscan, without completely rebuilding the entire game. And the whole point of neocron reloaded, is to use the same assets and dynamics as neocron so as to be able to do it in the 12 months they are pitching. If you're going to change the game that much, you might as well make a proper sequel.

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There was me thinking responding to each of your points in turn was not dismissing your post out of hand...

If you replace the current mechanic with a standard FPS mechanic (and not just hitscan, NC would use projectiles for at least as many, if not more weapons) you'd end up with just the same weapon diversity as you have now, what with having the same selection of weapons with the same differences as you have now.

On the timescale thing. I don't think there's any need to change environments (outside of the broken outposts, but that's a bigger task anyway). NC weapons aren't near-instant kill and I'd hope that accuracy while moving wouldn't be crippling, so while combat would change, it would still be about moving and shooting accurately and not cover hugging.

Beyond that though, it's well established that Neocron's current code is an almighty, horrendous mess. Something that nobody who comes to new can get understand at all, hence the many aborted feature attempts and mangled corrections over the years (fixing grim chaser loot breaking stealth, for a famous ridiculous example). In addition, it's almost certainly written in a combination of C++ and C, and based heavily on the Tekktonic engine. I think it's safe to say that NC Reloaded being built in Unity, which only supports a small subset of the CLI languages (Boo, UnityScript (basically JavaScript.net) and C#) and having it's whole own engine interface (I highly doubt Tekktonic uses things like transform.Move(vector as UnityEngine.Vector3) for example) that all the code for Neocron Reloaded is going to have to be new. I suspect that implementing a more conventional FPS system in Unity, which has been done and documented before is a lot easier than trying to recreate the weird system of Neocron, especially if you want it to be secure.

(I also imagine for related reasons that all the world geometry - ie levels will have to be done over again) There may be a way of importing them however.

Edit: You certainly have a point though, that doing such a thing is potentially outside of the scope of "the best elements of NC1 and NC2". I'd perhaps argue that "FPS like combat" was the good part, rather than the specific implementation of.

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Originally Posted by CMaster

(I also imagine for related reasons that all the world geometry - ie levels will have to be done over again) There may be a way of importing them however.

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Indeed, there's huge problems with collision boxes, the physics and stuff like the fact vehicles, which can't leave the ground as such, can't interact with much of the non-floor terrain like OPs, bridges and buildings, things that they can't access or simply bounce up and down on.

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Originally Posted by CMaster

There was me thinking responding to each of your points in turn was not dismissing your post out of hand...

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I meant the ones before, you are right though that while I don't agree with you, you did address all the points in that post, and by that you are already highly perceptive ;)

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Originally Posted by CMaster

On the timescale thing. I don't think there's any need to change environments (outside of the broken outposts, but that's a bigger task anyway). NC weapons aren't near-instant kill and I'd hope that accuracy while moving wouldn't be crippling, so while combat would change, it would still be about moving and shooting accurately and not cover hugging.

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I disagree here, since the environments are too wide open for hitscan game imho, and duels would end up being snipe fests from one side of the zone to the other, trying to stay in cover, and opfight with 20 people in the same 20 meters would be bad imho.

Try playing counterstrike or deathmatch on one of the neocron maps that were converted to source or goldsource (hl1). They were boring as fuck because the environments just didn't work for the gameplay.

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Originally Posted by CMaster

(I also imagine for related reasons that all the world geometry - ie levels will have to be done over again) There may be a way of importing them however.

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In the video they show plaza one already fully implemented in unity, so at least the internal zones seem to be easy to import. And the outdoor zones are simple heightmaps with models placed in them, both heightmaps and the models could be directly imported into unity from almost any source format. As to the collision models, unity can very easily create collision meshes for any models that imported, and with neocron's blockiness, automatically generated meshes are probably even better than manually generated ones.

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Originally Posted by CMaster

Edit: You certainly have a point though, that doing such a thing is potentially outside of the scope of "the best elements of NC1 and NC2". I'd perhaps argue that "FPS like combat" was the good part, rather than the specific implementation of.

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Thanks for granting me that point, convinces me we're at least presenting arguements over the same point, and simply disagree, not misunderstand eachother.

I actually really enjoy the recticle based aiming in neocron. in the chaos of big fights, I wouldn't want to play opfights without the recticle system. I personally think turning on hitscan in the current maps and skill setups would only make neocron a really bad fps with some fun tradeskilling and atmostphere. But as before, that is my opinion, and I respect that you hope a new system might be better.

One more argument against that would be, re-implementing the recticle system can't really make it worse than it is, while switching to hitscan might actually ruin the game.

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Originally Posted by Biglines

I meant the ones before, you are right though that while I don't agree with you, you did address all the points in that post, and by that you are already highly perceptive ;)

I disagree here, since the environments are too wide open for hitscan game imho, and duels would end up being snipe fests from one side of the zone to the other, trying to stay in cover, and opfight with 20 people in the same 20 meters would be bad imho.

Try playing counterstrike or deathmatch on one of the neocron maps that were converted to source or goldsource (hl1). They were boring as fuck because the environments just didn't work for the gameplay.

In the video they show plaza one already fully implemented in unity, so at least the internal zones seem to be easy to import. And the outdoor zones are simple heightmaps with models placed in them, both heightmaps and the models could be directly imported into unity from almost any source format. As to the collision models, unity can very easily create collision meshes for any models that imported, and with neocron's blockiness, automatically generated meshes are probably even better than manually generated ones.

Thanks for granting me that point, convinces me we're at least presenting arguements over the same point, and simply disagree, not misunderstand eachother.

I actually really enjoy the recticle based aiming in neocron. in the chaos of big fights, I wouldn't want to play opfights without the recticle system. I personally think turning on hitscan in the current maps and skill setups would only make neocron a really bad fps with some fun tradeskilling and atmostphere. But as before, that is my opinion, and I respect that you hope a new system might be better.

One more argument against that would be, re-implementing the recticle system can't really make it worse than it is, while switching to hitscan might actually ruin the game.

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The more you talk the..... you look, Bigtool in the house

Have you played any new shooter you have to walk and aim otherwise you cant hit shit, basically the same thing as reticule.

Juts because you saw something that resembles Plaza1 in a video doesnt mean it was Easy to port or even functional.

Same things that prevent snipe fest right now would prevent them in NC:R, IE having to go into the base and hack the GIBSON!!!, clip plane or just not having the reticule close at such a far range so it would be a wildly
inaccurate shot.

TBH you could easily do a hybrid system, hell I remember when xbow didnt need no reticule, nor a STORM bot Laser AKA mnk module

I tend to doubt that there's no hitscan at all in NC. As far as I remeber I was able to damage stealthed spies with my CS when the projectiles did hit. Also AoE Weapons definetly must work on a hitscan basis. It's some nasty mess of mixed systems we have here. And I agree to CM in so far that I'd also like to see the Lock-On mechanism to go for good. The effect it has when using slow firing volley weapons (Plamsa Waves for instance) is just ugly.

But I also have to agree to Biglines: The environment isn't really perfect for real shooter gameplay. But changes to that are surely not within the scope for an NC 1/NC 2 revamp. But for a potential NC 3 I'd love the devs to take a very close look at UT 3's Warfare mode. That's how I have allways wished the NC PvP to be like.

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Originally Posted by MadMeleeFreak

I tend to doubt that there's no hitscan at all in NC. As far as I remeber I was able to damage stealthed spies with my CS when the projectiles did hit. Also AoE Weapons definetly must work on a hitscan basis. It's some nasty mess of mixed systems we have here. And I agree to CM in so far that I'd also like to see the Lock-On mechanism to go for good. The effect it has when using slow firing volley weapons (Plamsa Waves for instance) is just ugly.

But I also have to agree to Biglines: The environment isn't really perfect for real shooter gameplay. But changes to that are surely not within the scope for an NC 1/NC 2 revamp. But for a potential NC 3 I'd love the devs to take a very close look at UT 3's Warfare mode. That's how I have allways wished the NC PvP to be like.

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Yep, there's hitscan in the game, hell, the recticle system couldn't work without it. From what I can tell, it's client side only, and not lag compensated.

And I agree that for an nc3, proper fps/tps would be cooler, though whether it should be a system like Global agenda, where winning is based on teamplay and focus (due to weapons doing very slow damage), or twitch based like counterstrike/ut/CoD/BF (high damage, short 1on1 fights), I'm leaning towards the GA system.

I do think though that in a game like neocron, dieing shouldn't be as twitch based as modern shooters, seeing how severe the penalties for dieing are (walking around, dieing in 2 seconds and then having wait for si, getting poked and traveling multiple zones etc...).

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Originally Posted by Biglines

And I agree that for an nc3, proper fps/tps would be cooler, though whether it should be a system like Global agenda, where winning is based on teamplay and focus (due to weapons doing very slow damage), or twitch based like counterstrike/ut/CoD/BF (high damage, short 1on1 fights), I'm leaning towards the GA system.

I do think though that in a game like neocron, dieing shouldn't be as twitch based as modern shooters, seeing how severe the penalties for dieing are (walking around, dieing in 2 seconds and then having wait for si, getting poked and traveling multiple zones etc...).

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This. I agree 200%.

I remember the last op fight i participated in - a fully overcapped Woc armored rifle spy goes in, takes a shot and dies. I remember thinking - what's even the point of going to all the trouble of skilling, getting all the implants and equipment so i can get 1 hit killed??? ffs lol.

Teamplay should be the focus of Neocron, since the need for other people to play the game is what made it so special in the first place.

Yep agreed. Though I didn't like GA enough to play until I got involved in Clans and proper PvP so I cannot judge on that. But definetly PvP in a new NC should keep it's team centric nature and even emphasize on it further. This together with the level-building and game-mechanics approach of UT 3's Warfare mode for the OP fights would make it stand out among MMOs and Shooters alike.

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Originally Posted by MadMeleeFreak

Yep agreed. Though I didn't like GA enough to play until I got involved in Clans and proper PvP so I cannot judge on that. But definetly PvP in a new NC should keep it's team centric nature and even emphasize on it further. This together with the level-building and game-mechanics approach of UT 3's Warfare mode for the OP fights would make it stand out among MMOs and Shooters alike.

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oh yeah, there are a lot of things wrong with GA, especially the matchmaker and some gamemodes, as well as 0 atmosphere and really bad and boring pve.

Assuming Neocron: Reloaded sees the light of day and the assets get transferred to the Unity engine, will our characters be moved as well?

Otherwise there could be a lot of upset players.

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Originally Posted by Hell-demon

Assuming Neocron: Reloaded sees the light of day and the assets get transferred to the Unity engine, will our characters be moved as well?

Otherwise there could be a lot of upset players.

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Well, it's supposed to be a different game, with different mechanics and items, but based on NC2. I'd like to keep my characters and items, but if Nukklear delivers a stable product that fixes most of what's broken in NC2, i'd see that as a payable price for losing my characters and items...

Besides, like Chuck Norris said earlier in this thread i think, new things to do is cool.

But I can see veterans really helping out in Neocron: Reloaded for a myriad of reasons:

1. Tradeskillers with maxed out skills will help the new economy and help new players acquire better weapons. Yes it means new traders are at a disadvantage for a while till they can catch up but overall it would help.

2. The initial clan wars will be bloody and brutal. Every fucker will lay claim to the outposts and all out war will commence. We need the skilled fighters and hackers to secure these areas so that newbies have support when joining clans and gaining PvP experience.

3. The veterans here have been the most loyal and supportive of Neocron. Surely their loyalty should be rewarded by having their characters in NC:R. I suppose you could just do the whole implants, skills and quickbelt transfer to the server.


But there is a good point that maybe we should all be reset to zero. Fresh start and all.

You lot are seriously moaning about keeping your hoards of items.

Where would they go if the game died? Please think of the game as a whole and not yourselves, yes even Hell Demons reasons are selfish.

With a wipe Vets could still think of many many ways to help and advise new players.

Don't you want it to succeed ? Don't you want everyone to experience the fresh new experience most of us did?

Letting the veteran clans take all the OPs sheesh!! Yes alot of them have been supportive playing such agreat game for no charge paid out of the pocket of kirk, when most games with these pops would have closed years ago.

Signed

Old,old player who again has hope

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Originally Posted by Nikabolokov

You lot are seriously moaning about keeping your hoards of items.

Where would they go if the game died? Please think of the game as a whole and not yourselves, yes even Hell Demons reasons are selfish.

With a wipe Vets could still think of many many ways to help and advise new players.

Don't you want it to succeed ? Don't you want everyone to experience the fresh new experience most of us did?

Letting the veteran clans take all the OPs sheesh!! Yes alot of them have been supportive playing such agreat game for no charge paid out of the pocket of kirk, when most games with these pops would have closed years ago.

Signed

Old,old player who again has hope

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/amen