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@JohnGalt: the instancing that you are thinking of is the very same game mechanic that you find in WOW, F2P games in general.
this is not useful in NC 'cause NC doesn't work and wasn't made with this game mechanism. is it like introducing RTS into FPS game... doesn't work without breaking something...
agreed ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Setlec
Well it doesn't always work, but natural selection (Hl1 mod) and natural selection 2 (coming out soon, standalone) did a very good job of combining the two ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Setlec
natural selection? what is that? i never heard of it before...
I am speaking not from a game players view but, a revenue view. SOME carefully constructed offerings could open up other sales points. It will not affect those that do not wish to lease an instanced area.
Look NC lives if it generates revenue. I dislike the F2P format but, an instances arena for a PvP fight can impose PvP fighting criteria and also allow for a configuration board to remove outside assistance, limit weapons and so forth.
We can hash all we want about NC this and NC that. More players will not exist unless the game makes cash and continues to employ the attractions NC delivers now. Competitive MMO's will draw their player base from strong but outdated mmo's.
Do you actually think WoW's competitive edge for keeping players is their repetitive development or the strong investment in time and effort in building the character and moving up in clan rank.
I like Halo, great forge, map's, competitiveness, but it lacke all the trimmings NC has as well as the freedom. What would NC be like if we could shoot out into space and return with the components we need for an off world weapon?
I am saying not just add-it on but make it a hub for trades and universe PvP competition.
I am saying a single concept game is not the future and we are the last few who see NC's stickey features that still entertain us.
Wouldn't it be nice to have other worlds a monk could hammer spells on. A tank could fight off mobs.
NC can live from charity or it can pay some dividends back in it's reuse as a MAJOR add-on world for BP. As I see it I have heard no-one say that NC will be completely rebuilt/developed. Even Kirk has said there will be only so much time and ability to bring NC back the way it is.
We need to focus on constructive ideas and create a give and take environment where new players will come and then stay paying and providing for a more involved view for NC because cash is coming in.
My overall idea has it's hurdles but will allow a significantly shorter development time and allow Reakktor to use some creative thinking to get other off-line mmo's to do some of the work they need and negotiate some passive cash.
I defiantly desire NC to go on, but I do not have the cash either to make the next generation. Let us deliver ideas that will achieve these goals.
JG
that could be sarcasm but in the case of actual interest:
http://www.youtube.com/user/NaturalSelection2HD (it's a youtube channel showing the current state of natural selection 2).
Natural selection 1 was a mod for half life, which combined fps combat, with a non-symetrical team system (aliens vs marines, aliens being mostly melee and agile, marines being tech-heavy), and mixed that with a rts influence where a commander sits in a command station and commands the marines and builds bases, gathers resources provides weapons and upgrades for the marines, etc etc. It won numerous awards for being the best mod out there.
Now ns2 is a commercial sequel, costing about 35 dollars to pre-order now. The cool thing about pre-ordering is that you can already play the current beta of the game. (And by beta I mean it is far readier than any of the recent shooters has been on release, and with almost always a weekly patch, sooner if there are gamebreaking bugs). The aliens now also gained a commander, and some changes in gameplay (aliens can now "infest" areas). The beta already has seen a number of clanmatches, some of them broadcast on that channel posted at the top.
The developers themselves are very cool, they are an indy team of originally 3 (now around 10), who built the engine and game from scratch. Contrary to KK they actually know how to communicate with the community, and because of that have one of the biggest fan commitments I've ever seen. (when the preorder option was opened up, there was a 20 dollar normal edition, and a 40 dollar special edition, where the special edition only included a different colour armour as marine. 99% of the pre-orders in the first months were for the special edition, raising thousands of dollars which has gone into another big round of development that has allowed them to put in a lot of big features that were gonna be scrapped if the response hadn't been that good.
Of course you have some trolls whining that the release date has been postponed almost a year now, but they have always shown what the extra time has been used for (putting in dynamic infestation, extra maps, extra work on the different lifeforms/techtrees, bug fixing etc), and well... the game is already more playable (from a bug and feature perspective) than neocron has ever been.
oh and it's gonna be VAC protected, so while that is not completely cheat-proofing, at least it won't be as casually easy to cheat without consequences as it is here.
The gameplay itself has never been the problem with nc. It's the fact that pretty much from nc1, the quality of the game has gone down with every patch, the game is pretty much completely ignored, and almost nothing is done to address problems like exploits and cheats.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnGalt
Make neocron exactly the same as it was in nc1, with upgraded graphics, a proper anti-cheat system, and a good developer team behind it, and it will crush earthrise, fallen earth and whatever fps mmo's there are out there, whatever payment system you choose.
you're saying a single concept game is not the future, but tell me one single success story of a multi-concept game? tacking together multiple games into one simply doesn't work, and if it was going to work, it would require the likes of blizzard, bethesda or bioware to pull it off, not KK.
with BP they proved one good thing. They can take an existing gameplay idea, and make it look damn good. Do the same with neocron, hell if you have to make it properly free to play (not like BP).
There's a reason that wow is so popular, it's because they took a very unoriginal gameplay idea, and executed it very very well (technically, graphically and gameplay wise, WoW is not my kind of game, but for it's kind it's the best done mmo).
I'll keep my hopes up for a proper sequel, neocron 3 (lol I know right, hope), not some addon to BP.
I agree with you it's better to come up with original ideas and hope KK takes a few of them and makes a better neocron for us, but I just genuinely believe that tacking multiple games together will just mess up all of them. I'm not trying to just be negative about the future, but I genuinely feel combining multiple games into one will only bring out the worst in all of them.
Although it seems we tend to disagree more than we agree, I actually agree with every word you've said there ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Biglines
nah, we just discuss most things endlessly :p it's a difference ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by L0KI
I am not basing my communication of integration on KK. Kirt is running the show and some of the original NC team do pop in and have done some minor work on NC since the first comments were made about insolvency.
There has been no success of integrating multiples (formerly single mmo's in the past because they were all built on a self interest basis expected to make profit for just themselves (so to speak).
With so many failures in their ability to keep them online I am sure an innovative concept with a strong communication development leader can introduce possibilities that would open up a larger world while still producing revenue for the core that binds them all together, that being BP.
Each mmo that is chosen will have those that want to just (mainly) decide to stick to playing that mmo. All chosen and worked into the scheme will have an additional storyline/actions that contribute to the BP concept and at times if the missions for BP and off world components as well as PvP amongst different worlds is introduced creatively, will add additional (non-boredom potential for players.
I agree Biglines that your comments on NC1 orientation are strong and that would serve NC's growth and with the interesting trades NC has allow for more than just faction interaction with players.
Maybe I should say NC's implants and NC1's balancing should be the basis of the multiple mmo integration. There needs to be a standard. Implants can look like anything but their actual effect can revolve around one mmo's beginnings.
Other clouds are presenting many games independent of each other, and you are correct in the assumption that "I" cannot provide you of one mmo successfully integrating other mmo's into one world.
I say that this is a time for innovation, mmo's are off-line and the financiers do not see reason to invest in them for redevelopment do they (and this is aside from having a sufficient player base to cover operational expenses.
Why not create an internal market for the off-line mmo's, why not see if a good development team can have someone convince the off-line (useful) mmo owners that they have an opportunity for them to recycle their currently (and more than likely permanently shelved) game into something new with significantly less investment?
Why shouldn't OUR NC and BP development team benefit from the interaction with others that would like to work with them (as partners, BP/NC is the final say/controller).
We have asked before for Reakktor to let us help rebuild NC (many of you more qualified than I) and they have said "Well think about it" sort of).
If the risk of failure is spread out over 5 or 10 mmo's chosen as useful toward my proposal (and it would only take 2 or 3 to see if the people bite at the concept) then maybe some additional financing can be found (as well as developers that would like to make some extra money from their older off-line game) and a new market can be found; and our NC/BP team will profit by this.
I do not want to CHANGE NC. I am saying innovate. Kirt Lenke has stated that NC will not be rebuilt but, they will do what they can. He has kept his work at keeping NC on-line though. I have to respect that. i do not forget Nidhogg, Snocrash and the others who have been here and still answer our posts and pvt emails (thank you).
I am (as I have said before) thinking of survival and that our ideas (to support survival0 need to include profit making mechanisms for the company. They will not be able to just focus on NC now that BP is working and needs to continue to generate profit.
Although, creativity in finding finance for a new feasibility approach to the on-line mmo market could draw investment, especially if certain barriers to entry into a market as I am suggesting can be found and secured legally.
Hell, maybe the overall game could have some instancing for the tablet market but offer a greater experience from laptop/pc. I truly am a devoted fan of NC but isn't it obvious over the last 9 years that it has been mostly MONEY that has hurt the once desired long-term development and argument over rights second; whether KK was the main cause or not those two issues are the core.
Now, most insolvency appears to be flowing past, BP is a great game with (as NC) great potential. Use NC as an example, give the BP players what they want; a walk around world, NC1 style, integrate new BP missions and resource development etc..., etc... As I am assuming Gamigo does not own NC therefore; this add on world can increase player base and offer additional revenue to Gamigo AND NC. The tricky parts will be to assure that the interest Gamigo has will not be secondary to the NC goals but I believe that can be negotiated.
This will require growth for our team if successful, and I find it hard to believe that the BP community will not embrace the coolness of NC.
Biglines, Brammers if I sound like i am not following in your view of NC to the point of how the world should be then I do apologize. i agree with much u say but, survival will have to be negotiated and NC can have a HUGE population growth connected to BP. If I had the cash I would prove it.
Respectfully,
JohnGalt
@JohnGalt no need to apologise, your opinion counts just as equally as mine. ;)
My thoughts on MMO's is it's changed massively over the last 2-3 years. There have been some big failures. (Hellgate London springs to mind) Star Wars Galaxies is closing this year. Anyone remember the NC>SWG T-shirts and the great NC vs SWG arguments on the forums here? And lets not forget Face of Mankind, which many labelled it as the NC Killer.
Also the biggest change is the transition from subscription to F2P. Lord of the Rings was the first major MMO there, and somehow it's making 3 times more money in the cash store than it did before.
Bucking the trend seems to be Star Wars the Old Republic, on 3 counts, one for making a new MMO in the first place, and 2 for being a subscription game as well. (Well it's likely I've heard) and 3 for it's massive budget. I've heard 300million (Not sure if it dollars or pounds) with 100 million on voice acting alone. Fortunately for BioWare they know Star Wars fans = Lots of money.
On the BP side of things, well KK are still working on that, and that's a good thing. Does bother me some of the foul-ups I read on the forums and in reviews. However without any word from KK on Neocron it appears KK are 100% focused on BP and 0% on NC.
So with all that in mind, NC3 as a re-built from scratch MMO? It's going to be an interesting one. If they work on building and fixing NC2 that would work if the players come back. Although it's going to be hard working with code and technology that's 10+ years old.
Think I've said this many times before, what makes NC great, to me it's the atmosphere. The big mistake in NC2 was going from faction based wars to Red vs Blue. Thankfully that was fixed in the great F6 patch, and also it felt great to be home in Techhaven again!
The balancing? That can be debated to death, I've yet find a balanced game. So long as the devs keep patching to address balance issues. Players will still find the ultimate pwning setup and others will scream nerf that!
As for the MMO offline idea? Interesting. Need to think and understand what you are saying there before I reply. So for now, I'll stop rambling on and post, since I think I've may have gone a bit OT. :lol:
I think one of the reasons bioware is going against the trend is that they believe their mmo to be introducing story telling into the mmo genre, not sure how succesful it'll be, but I'm a fan of their other work so if they allow accounts without a credit card, I'll be trying that out for myself.
@johngalt no need to apologize, you have well structured and thought-through posts, the fact that I don't agree with some of it probably just gives it credibility ;) I admire your optimism in thinking of new ways to blow life into the game, the fact I don't agree with it is probably a matter of taste or professional disagreement.
I don't totally agree that the big trend is towards f2p. There are still as many p2p games coming out as before. It's just that a lot of smaller studios are also bringing out mmo's nowadays with the success of WoW, but since they are simply unable to bring the same quality to the table, the only way for them to survive is f2p. There are very few really good games that are f2p, and 99% of the f2p genre is crappy remakes of bigger titles or shaky reboots of older failed p2p games. The only f2p game I can think of that has any critical acclaim atm is league of legends.
To my fellow Players,
This is a big one and I hope it answers some questions.
I appreciate both your comments. I apologized because I wanted to be sure words said in a manner less personal than face to face were not perceived as rude or disrespectful; especially to those that have a desire for positive events that power productive results.
Biglines,
I am not a F2P fan. In my opinion F2P lacks the responsible control yet fun and free playing environment that NC enforced. NC (whether or not it was an intention) has and had a moral and ethical balance that eliminates many of the player-base that seeks to disrupt a game world environment. The LE reinforced this. BP has its rules and if the line is crossed you are deleted, period. I like this also but, this does not serve BP as an opportunity to warn those that are part of the revenue food chain.
Brammers "On the BP side of things, well KK are still working on that, and that's a good thing. Does bother me some of the foul-ups I read on the forums and in reviews. However without any word from KK on Neocron it appears KK are 100% focused on BP and 0% on NC."
There is a post from Kirt, in under one of my most upsetting comments I have ever made on the forum that "He" as the Executive Officer states that he will keep NC on-line (for the time being).
So I am a bit confused at "Who" controls what and where the real authority lies with NC. I have heard read endless unpleasant argument about KK over the years but, I cannot be as coarse with KK's actions because even though we were informed the operative word creating the discourse with NC was "Insolvency" the true definition and circumstances surrounding the company's survival are not as defined. I will tend to side with the "My unproven belief" that KK had to do things that created a discontinuity amongst the development team and the business end.
As we can see here and now, KK's decisions wrong or right allow NC to continue on and allow still a possibility of hope for another life span. Yes , KK may have not been the sole or key factor after a certain point which caused NC to still be here and have others say that NC 3 may exist but, it is here and so are we. I think for what ever reason KK was forced to make survival decisions that upset (I am sure to say the least) his co-workers, the company, the development team; there decisions were made for a someone's and or some survival reason. Artist's over the centuries have tossed out their masterpieces and even painted over them if "they" thought it was needed. KK may have committed the same error. Except in this case, it appears Kirk Lenke, and our obvious NC team friends who speak and visit us from time to time, are in some form of control to partner (if applicable) in the fate of this NC world.
I may easily sound like I am defending KK ignorantly but the fact is there are (and were) many things happening behind the mask called "Insolvency" not shared (and not prudent to be shared) with us.
With that said, I respect you both because I have read you words many times, as well as Loki :) and others. I make my "Off-Line" mmo comment because NC could have been simply "Off-Line" a long time ago except people like Snowcrash, Nidhogg and others have contributed greatly to NC as it is no matter the smallest effort. I think these people are artiest who refuse to paint over their masterpiece even though they have created another in the likes of BP.
So, even though I believe Mr. Lenke has his say, personal efforts from those mentioned and not mentioned will give NC a 3rd life or not.
As for my use of the term "Off-line" mmo's Sir Brammers :)...
Yourself, Biglines and Loki have ALL mentioned other mmo's failed, failing and some that are going the old (and still successful route) of being proprietary.
I am suggesting to create a market for some carefully selected mmo's that are going to die or that may have already died; suggest a partnership with the owners/developers of those dead or soon to die mmo's and use them as virtual add-on packs/worlds for BP. BP will be the glue that binds these add-on's together. BP will make ALL the Space Rules/Development and integration decisions, as well as receive percentages of the revenues for using these mmo's as an add-on who would otherwise not had another life to earn revenues.
Now please just think a moment, how long would new content be able to be introduced now "IF" BP development team used their knowledge to hammer out the core storyline changes and resource missions (etc, etc, and what ever other creative actions they come up with).
Walk around, PvP worlds could be introduced (pre determined by BP of course) every few months. Those that partner will do the integration under agreement, some additional Premium mod concepts will be created, additional, missions will require virtual travel to new worlds to become a character on that add-on world or trade with it. these best of the best failed mmo's will keep a very high percentage of their original concept but, now have BP Universes and Galaxies to open up months of new content and interaction with thousands of players.
I am suggesting that the population will have so much space to explore and multiple worlds to create, fight, develop find resources that the core BP world can take their ideas to hundreds and even thousands of weapons, ships, clothing, Premium mod's etc.., etc...
This will mean that someone who joins BP will get a discount on the add-on worlds OR, they can purchase the add-on world and be restricted to playing that mmo as a pay to play.
Now, those solitary Pay2play people will still be able to develop characters, play that world and involve themselves in the economy of BP yet, how long do you think they will just want to stay there when visitors from other places tell them how cool it is to fight on Neocron?
If your going to join a second mmo and you have a chance to make all the time and effort you put into mmo #1 work with the effort in mmo #2 and becoming a member of space travel in BP, and allow you the ability to spend your NC cash or crons from another world to build a ship to fight, hijack and so on...; I think with the careful price adjustments you can draw in thousands of players with BP F2P and then make cash from the other mmo worlds using Premium mod sales and MONTHLY fees to support them and deliver profit to the partner mmo world. All of this at lower costs than they could have done alone.
SOME, instancing, and I mean a creative use of that as a revenue generator hand in hand with dedicated Cloud server time for groups such as clans as a pay to use or rent for a period of time. Would I pay $3-$5 bucks per month to have a "Secret Hidden Space Station" on my own Cloud? what if they stop paying fee's? No big deal, now the Secret area becomes visible and if some lucky clan or person happens upon it the loot and salvaging can be like winning the lottery. I am just creative thinking here...
Holo suits (as I mentioned before) can be used to disguise players from other worlds so they can (to a limited extent) fight and interact with places they are not from, similar concept can disguise space ships so you can land.
If the company has legal conceive the right contracts and revenue is distributed responsible with a partnership then BP should have so many streams of incoming revenue as well as stability that Gamigo will be paid off sooner than later. Off'line mmo's that would have been shelved will make cash as well as BP. Then, your player base will form the worlds. If a partnership goes wrong then, BP can have its hidden enemy take the planet out and good by, back to the shelf.
So, in the metaphor I used above with artists, BP will be the landscape for this virtual civilization. If you asking on how to introduce these add-ons I suggest, the (at one time hidden) enemy in BP can remain the supreme enemy but, the Federation of planets (so to speak, and I realize the existing conflict between the races in BP) can unite when they discover a world held captive by the (once Hidden enemy) and think of a player united battle, huge ships fighting with smaller ship support. Trade skills introduced into be to have unique universal tools to rep and cst on these huge ships as they fight, many players working together on an NPC generated super ship fighting in the battle provided by the story line. The players who unite are rated by percentage scales that if they become a negative to the group they are deleted from the battle and penalized.
NC I see as a Major PvP world and a Core trade-skill world for many of the in-game items need to be built. I would say that there will be plenty to go around.
Now, BP will be the largest Cloud MMo period (I believe) and with BP focusing on BP development and another BP group working with the add-on worlds to keep the standards this could be very large and profitable.
I forgot to mention that the holo suit and ship holo camo concept was just the metric that would be used as the hidden balancing feature in addition to what it does for the player and equipment. In other words if i left NC as a human and arrived on a creature schemed world the purchased (built from resources collected from many places) suit would make me not just look like them but, I would be restricted to the same balancing metrics applied to that world. i would have to buy, make weapons from that world because my existing weapons would not be usable there, unless you applied the concept to the weapons but I see this as not immediately necessary because if an inventory database is created with a cloak for ship as well as character then, while waring that cloak you specific inventory for that disguise would activate the weapons for that world.
I did it again, I wrote another book. I hope this is clearer. What I say is what many players ask for playing a proprietary mmo. BP has a great space environment, think of the missions and fighting it can create with many worlds, think of the Premium stuff sold at an economy of player scale price, think of the add-on worlds supporting their operational time with monthly fees, think of creating a pay to store character house or planet where if you plan to come back it will cost you $0.50-1$ per month per planet you want to store you account info or a flat $24.00 per year (I think that NC was too generous with allowing ppl to come back 5 years later for free.
I have not mentioned farming accounts sold against game policy but, this needs to be combated so I also suggest that you create a limited account auction house for all character reactivation/sale's. If an account is not restored or trades through this system then it simply is deleted when its fees are stopped being paid.
Ok, it is my turn to hush. My excuse is that even though I am not an employee with NC/BP development, I still want to see you all get your rewards. I see BP as being the showcase of not just a great space game but of a large scope human endeavor in a virtual world that in another lifetime will exist in some form, in some future.
As always; My Respectful wishes to the community,
JohnGalt
P.S. Thank-You Brammers, Biglines and Loki as well as SnowCrash, Nidhogg and the rest of you not mentioned for continuously "Stirring the Pot", enticing commentary.
I've become very cynical over the years, and believe the only reason KK is keeping neocron up is because it doesn't cost them much (they as much as came out and admitted it runs on just a few servers, and with the low populations it probably costs less than the janitor to keep running), and it might keep them some credibility for getting people to play their other games (and maybe being able to market "creator of one of the longest running mmo's").
This also pretty much explains the reasons for the outright lies they've told us, and the way they have been utterly ignoring us for the past year, nc is simply being ignored.
so that little rant completed;
It seems you have given it a lot of thought, and from the business side of things it might actually work. But I think from a gameplay point of view, people coming for BP wouldn't be much interested in neocron (or the other games), and the other way around (most of the people I've known here in neocron (and GA) have tried BP, and turned their back on it because it's simply not very good. And from a technological point of view, I think it would be very difficult to make some kind of continuity between multiple games, especially if they are games that already have a player base.
Then again, it might work, and it might actually be a good idea ;)
Well as for BP I have played beta and release. I am not playing atm because I haven't the cash to keep up with the hording of stuff that I like to store and storage is pricey. I did like the game but again, from beta to present, people want mining, walk around stations, PvP walk around and the such.
EDIT-As for KK, I said above, the truth is KK's business and those that it affected in the business. We are lucky that we got what we did for info. I will not condemn KK no matter what KK thinks of me. There is allot unsaid, i won't become the vulture that players have been to him in the past as well as others. Either whoever is in-charge of NC desires our opinions or they are humoring us. It is obvious Chenoa, Nidhogg, SnowCrash (to name a few) want to hear our thoughts. for that i am glad to still have the lines of communication they offer; Kirk hasn't been bad at listen and from time to time responding either.
Noobs form packs and attack people minding their own business, this forces higher up players to seek and destroy first so the noobs go else where. You cannot really just mind you own business and do missions, danger is everywhere. It works but, it get's tiresome. NC allows you to do your own thing. BP needs more do you own thing. Sure space is dangerous but, the mechanisms for harmony are not there. I would like to see the ability to have tough drone ships as my controlled escort to attack 1 to 5 opponents who want to be pricks. That is unlikely...
Players are demanding more than the investors are willing to give them. You will not continue to succeed to play the Machiavellian Card forever.
Let us cut to the heart of the NC world issue, hacks and exploits are the chief issue with NC and PvP. I am still wondering if the security issues are cost effectively solved to allow the thought of NC being an NC3 or add on to BP (if it was considered).
The point of the Le chip was to deter LOOZERS that were in game for 3 minuets and player killed everyone. The Le saved NC simply because it provided "choice". I remember b4 the Le, what a time it was leveling and asking the runners in a pack horde to spare you life so you wouldn't have to spend 20min's to re-poke and get out to the wastelands again.
The strongest Ethic NC had was and is the LE.
There is profit and fair balanced prices available for an economy of scale game. Rich content and plenty to do will draw people and the masses will holler for what they want to have. Most of what they want is available, but not in one place. I am saying BP can be the Place.
JG
anticheat is only expensive in the gm support, since you need actual gms that know about the actual cheats and community (no use banning someone if they come back in 5 minutes with a new account), or you need to invest in either punkbuster, VAC or your own anti-cheat system. The problem with KK is that they simply don't give a fuck, and this comes down on the gms, who are powerless to ban simply because they don't get the support from upstairs, or the complaint is handled by some BP employee who couldn't see a neocron cheat if they were teleporting right in front of them (yes, literal movies of people teleporting into closed UGs or from one end of the wastelands to the other have been "taken under advisement" and utterly ignored)
then of course the utter failure to fix the failed anticheat patch they lied about right in our faces; "yes we're working on it" for almost a year now.
KK simply does not deserve any goodwill concerning anti-cheat, there is 0 effort to fix the problem, and not even enough care in the whole company to tell us the truth about it (one little message like "oh right, nc, uhm ye, we're kinda busy with BP, so we'll get back to you" would have been honest).