Neocron is....

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17-07-11, 15:05
Biglines

I totally agree with you that neocron needs players, but I feel very strongly that making neocron 3 more mainstream will make the game LESS attractive to people instead of more attractive.

eve is a niche market, do they lack for players? did nc1 lack for players? it was even more hardcore/niche than it is now.

niche doesn't mean low populations, niche means non-mainstream

a niche market in the current age, can be up to a few million players.

but if you try for mainstream, but don't have the resources to beat the big boys, you just fail miserably, like all the mmos that have failed in the last few years.

my point was twofold. First of all it was the point that people making an instanced game, will want to balance those instances so there are pvp, pve and level specific zones, otherwise instancing doesn't make a lot of sense.

The second and most important point is, that instancing makes a user aware of the fact that they are in a game. In a game like wow, the instancing is explained with magic and because it's mostly questing. In neocron, the point of 90% of the game is the immersion in the world, and the feeling that you are actually in this world with those people. All those evil people that want to hurt you are exactly in that one world with you, and every corner you take can result in finding those people, but it also means that all your friends are in that exact world, and if you go to the place you knew ur mate was leveling a few hours ago, you can check out that location and see for yourself, there aren't a thousand places exactly like it, and if you drop your belt in that one location, it will still either be there, or be hacked there.

This continuity is what makes neocron great imho.

If I wanted good pvp, I'd go play a round based shooter. If I wanted a good pve experience, I'd go play a single player or co-op game. If I just want adrenaline, I'll go play f3ar. I want my neocrack, I want to be in a postapocalyptic world with my friends and enemies, and I wanna to be scared shitless, or be zerged by 10 people attacking my op.

Tacking this onto black prophecy will make it a shitty game, simple as that. Neocron needs it's own intimacy, not to be some planet tacked onto black prophecy.
17-07-11, 15:08
Elric

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Antrim

Exactly.

The problem is with a niche market you dont get the players, NC needs players. If it goes huge one day which lets face it with marketing and basic bug fixing it is possible; then instancing is a better way of handling the player base. I dont know anything about server side loads or any of that or if the instanced dungeon is moved onto another server iu can get gn wow or whatever.

Its actually a fairly easy switch. Just think of it like Eve Online or Planetside. Simple. Each zone is its own area / server (each space sector or continent is a seperate server roughly speaking). You have multiple servers each running a different zone or set of zones and when your moving around them, its effectively one world but your data traffic is simply being handled by different servers depending where you are. NC's current netcode probably couldnt do it (or maybe it can, who knows!), but if they are genuinely looking at NC3 and updating engines etc. then its something that would make sense for them to look at if they wanted bigger numbers without separating the community.
17-07-11, 15:27
Mr_Snow

You cant compare EVE to NC the games are too different. EVE built its niche market yes but what most people dont like to admit is that EVE is built around a "carebear" client base, the people who do nothing but haul, mine, build and do agent missions in empire (safe) space. That is how EVE has grown and they are the vast majority of the EVE player base. Only the minority, if a very vocal minority are full time 0.0 players, pirates, mercs or other pvpers. Also to say that EVE has no instances is factually right but agent missions areas are basically instancing by a different name.

I do believe NC should stay away from instancing unless there is a huge population explosion to warrant it, but they should cater for the non-pvp type player. Some will argue that is where the LE comes in but the main failing with the LE is that it removes the social aspect from the game by denying its users the ability to make and join clans.

A way around this I think would be something along the lines of a newbie faction that is LEd by default and if they remove the LE they are kicked and made to then choose a faction, maybe use something like the Traders Union as it is technically already a faction and so should be usable with little work from KK.

Also to make the game more newbie friendly shop bought weapons should be better atleast at lower TLs so that they dont have to worry about being having to go through the effort of finding researcher, constructors and then potentially be robbed because the constructor or researcher is bored and feels likes chasing a new player away. Althought a better alternative to this would be player shops or an auction house. Adding in some group levelling zones for lowbies probably wouldnt be a bad idea and would especially help those who were silly enough to role a ppu from the start. Make them combat zones but limit them to a maximum **/** so that while a group can be wiped out by being pked they dont have to worry about 1 capped player taking them out just for the sake of it.

Adding microtransactions, wouldnt be the worst idea in the world aslong as it doesnt give anybody an advantage i.e. no spawned all artifact items that others can only have to constructed quaility, no weapons that can be only bought through microtransactions. Selling things like Gold PA or making it so that you have a clan crest that then shows up on specially purchased PAs and simple things like that or even scrap the better quaility shop bought items and make it so they can be bought using microtransactions aslong as they are no better the constructed items.

As for making NC3 a add on to BP I dont really know. My love of NC comes from the fact that there are so many factions and even with allied factiosn you dont really know if you will be attacked or not. BP has a standard red versus blue which I think takes away from games so unless they can write in a several faction storyline to the game I wouldnt be overly supportive but I could understand it from a commerical point of view.

Anyway thats my waffle over for today.

Oh yeah finally capped int on Ayane (my contruction spy) Woohoo only took 8 years!! I will be probably rolling a new tank in the next few days if any of the old crew want to join me.
17-07-11, 16:57
Biglines

oh I wasn't comparing eve in any way to nc except that they are both niche markets, while eve has loads of players, and KK scared away most for nc.

atm in nc, each zone is probably it's own server (physical or virtual), least in the netcode sense (sending world info to the clients)

I'm not against micropayments in neocron btw, but then it would have to be done right, and seeing the bullshit KK is pulling in BP, I don't think that'll work out.
18-07-11, 18:16
William Antrim

All of the above would work. I think everyone agrees on that point. Instancing doesnt take anything away from the game though. All that stuff you want in NC you get in WoW Biglines. The only difference is the 5 man dungeons and the bigger raids and stuff get instanced. Everything else in the realms I play on are open world. I get attacked while levelling all the time. I got my first smash on a player 3 levels higher than me last night cos i got jumped while fighting and I battered him. The adrenaline rush was just the same as i ever got in nc!

You can move the big raiding areas where you need a big coordinated team onto instanced levels because the last thing you want in a 25 man raid is some ***t coming in and ganking your ppu when youre not looking.

I dont care who thinks thats hardcore or not hardcore and all of that other bullshit. Fuck that. Its annoying. I have played this game for nearly a third of my life on and off and I am far from hardcore. It is irritating because it encourages the lowest form of pvp, the gank. I am all for open world pvp but I want to have the choice to do it or not do it and I do not mean the LE. I dont want a carebear flag either where i can turn it on and off and talk smack at people with no reciprocation back on me. I want to have the best of both worlds, pve when i want it and pvp.

That is how the mass market wants it, hence the popularity of the big games. If that brings in more players I am willing to make that compromise. I am more than happy with that. I have seen this game from the beginning of retail almost and I have watched it decline in that time massively. Why not copy an idea that works? NC with wow mechanics would be epic. Seriously, anyone who has seriously pvp'ed in the latest season in wow would agree imo. I would only want the PVE instanced though, not pvp. I am not sure if this point came across in previous posts.

Instanced Pvp would suck the big one for reasons previously discussed. We then have the best of both worlds as I have already said further up.
18-07-11, 19:38
Biglines

I think I got it yes, but to me the whole point of neocron is the fact that the pve and pvp are in that world, not in some special little world created just for me and my team.

But we might disagree on that ;) (the fact you apparently enjoy a game like WoW makes us different in what sort of games we enjoy already (not bashing WoW, just saying it's not for me))

hell, the original point was to ask not to make neocron a weak expansion of a mediocre game (noone can seriously say BP is anywhere near the originality and quality of gameplay of neocron)
19-07-11, 18:41
William Antrim

But if we copy a tried and tested system that is popular then we can all find ourselves more fun in this game because we would have the players back, hopefully.

I remember when WOW first came out. Oh how we mocked the people who went to play it. We had banners on the forums saying no more elves and shit like that. It was hilarious.

I like open world pvp. I like big team games of pvp with objectives in the world to take and hold. I like games where i can tweak my characters set up and collect items to make my guy punch harder, run faster or jump higher or whatever else to make him better. I like to talk some smack to my fellow players when i am doing this. That is all i want from a game. I stuck stoically with nc through Wows first inception and its second and even as far as the Wrath of the Lich King add on. They had a Lich king and we had Jini! We lost in comparison. I am not into the whole levelling bs, or the questing. Everything is about the pvp. You can now play wow in its entirety through pvp. There is some open world pvp but there is also instanced battlegrounds. With the size of the servers it needs to be instanced because if it was openworld alot of people would never get to level.

All i am saying is there are probably a nice percentage of wow players who are likeminded to myself and plenty of others who have played this game over the years.

If KK borrows some of the points that work in terms of pvp in wow or some other popular games then adds their own magic to that (magic and technology can coexist btw - Shadowrun, nuff said) then there is a chance NC will become popular again.

Thats the point I am trying to make.

It sounds like we are agreeing in a round about sort of way but your impression of wow makes you think differently?

If NC had more than a few thousand players in it none of us would ever be able to level anywhere because the game is too small. You would have groups of players rocking up and fighting over levelling spots and noone would ever get anything done.

I am not into that whole carebear lets go raid the dragons mountain shite. If i wanted that I would have stuck with Tolkien. I want something that ticks the above boxes (like nc used to and wow still does) and has players (nc doesnt, wow does).
19-07-11, 19:50
Biglines

not really, if the thing from wow you want to add is instanced pve, then no we disagree ;) it's exactly the thing that breaks the gaming experience for me, and as such would suck in neocron imho, it's exactly the reason why I don't play WoW (or any other magicky fantasy mmo's). I don't like all those game mechanisms that are used in those mmo's because they're too lazy to have it make sense. "it's magic" is just an excuse for bad story telling/lazy marketing.

but like I said, it's a matter of taste whether you like it or not. Doing it would make me not like neocron, and I personally think it would bring fewer people to neocron instead of more. If things appeal to a big audience, those things are generally already done in a big mmo, and done better than KK can do them.
23-07-11, 17:33
William Antrim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biglines

not really, if the thing from wow you want to add is instanced pve, then no we disagree ;) it's exactly the thing that breaks the gaming experience for me, and as such would suck in neocron imho, it's exactly the reason why I don't play WoW (or any other magicky fantasy mmo's). I don't like all those game mechanisms that are used in those mmo's because they're too lazy to have it make sense. "it's magic" is just an excuse for bad story telling/lazy marketing.

but like I said, it's a matter of taste whether you like it or not. Doing it would make me not like neocron, and I personally think it would bring fewer people to neocron instead of more. If things appeal to a big audience, those things are generally already done in a big mmo, and done better than KK can do them.

I dont want pve. I want to pvp with players, same as i have always said. I want a population.
23-07-11, 17:42
Biglines

ok ;)

(fruitless discussion, you want pvp and players and the effects of instanced pve would be irrelevant to you, which is good. To me it wudn't be, but as said, matter of taste ;))
24-07-11, 19:54
William Antrim

The short version is I don't mind what they do with this game as long as it brings in players. Yes that may make me a corporate sell out and not a die hard player any more and all of that stuff but i just want to see nc back how it used to be.
24-07-11, 21:49
JohnGalt

Let me explain futher...

Hello All,

I stirred a hornets nest with the term "...instancing...". I wanted to correct myself. Sorry I did not do this sooner. I used the term �instancing�(incorrectly) to suggest another thought; I agree with BigLines that �instancing� NC would be counterproductive. I apologize for using it in the wrong way. I agree that instancing NC as a WHOLE, would be undesirable.

What I did intend on implying with my previous post was to "cloud"/duplicate areas of, let us say a cave, a sector, etc.., then use these areas as an extra revenue generator (rental area) for clan based groups, or leveling groups (one clan against another, one player inviting others to level), to level in peace in their own area, an area that offers privacy. Sort of like having your own server dedicated. Yes, this would make OP Gr�s less used but, the renting of private space would generate more real revenue for the company if a larger player base existed.

It would also encourage a change in clan behavior; such as shutting down the Bonus and GR�s. If they want to generate revenue then they will need to generate a clan that is on 24/7 to guard the OP and then encourage the trades to come to their OP area to generate revenue.

Please keep in mind that all these thoughts go hand in hand with thoughts developed below� Please read on to see how the above comments fold into the Big-picture I am trying to make visible.

A private leveling area (sold as a Premium mod) would allow a player or players (NC world Based or infiltrators from other worlds who have met NC requirements) to lease mining sectors, cave sectors for hunting rare components and parts that can be used to create PvP weapons that are usable on different planets.

Now think of Black prophecy as a CORE for other mmo�s to re-use their off-line mmo worlds; renew them as Home Worlds for BP Universes and Galaxies.

BP will have a dynamic and interactive on-line world greater then WoW or any other MMO. You will have almost instantaneous growth in player base because of former mmo players that played the off-line mmo hearing that their mmo is coming back as an add on world of Black Prophecy.

A HUGE trading system to source items characters use on all worlds and in space can be developed. Some of these developments (such as Hollo suits) can be the mechinism that allows a runer from a different world to interact and use items from another planet.

If a hollo suit is used then the character needs to purchase �Rental Premium� mods to "Work/PvP/PvE" on that other world or, they can PURCHASE the ADD-ON Game pack of that mmo to develop a HomeWorld character and conduit Black market trading. one costs money for time but allows access, the other requires time and effort to develop character but an out of pocket cost that supports the revenue chain.

Black Prophecy Space can create ships unique to each world for battling BP content, doing missions to improve those ships abilities, and use the multiple ADD-on Home World�s to resource components to make items needed in BP space and items that create universally balanced weapons for PvP or PvE fighting on any world.

So, what I am saying to my favorite development company/team is�

Purchase/negotiate the right(s) to use the off-line MMO�s (or active ones with life about to end), and integrate them as New Home worlds for Black Prophecy. Distribute these worlds throughout BP space. Why nor re-use them? Create a BP purchase pack, each add-on can be purchased like I said above or you can least time on that planet to do your business/land cloaked.

Hollo suits will disguise Aliens, allow to develop/level a character to a faction (but not join a clan). For Clan right's or Home world rights you need to purchase an add-on pack and start from scratch. For example: Fighting with weapons from that world would require you to recover a lost faction I.D. tag and level you runner to that faction. You would not get an apartment but, could purchase a Premium mod for Go-Go storage access (again limited) or, remove the hollo suit (that makes you look like an NC runner)and fight with the universal weapons that are put together from many worlds (which are specifically balanced as a whole for any world fight.

Contract the best of the off-line mmo�s and then re-use them. Integrate features that give�s BP world upon world to choose from, with a trading system that should allow you to really develop a Premium mod System so large that the costs can be reduced and the economy of scale will deliver.
You preserve the existing worlds for development (gaining their old client base) and allow for space travel/Fighting in BP.

Keep the F2P BP world and FEE base (by month) the Add-on worlds selling the world package for a fee and then a low monthly fee for continued activation on that world on BP supporting that ADD-on clouds operation costs.

Create a low monthly/yearly storage fee system for players that want an add-on world's character(s) stored because they don't want to pay the higher monthly fee. Even at $12 per year you should not have to store for free a players stuff beyond 30 day's if they want to take a break. Sure they own the game /add-on and can get the updated for free but, if they do not pay the monthly access fee for the add on then 30 days means deletion and they will have to start all over. I say sell storage insurance per year for up to 4 add-on accounts and a separate storage insurance for BP accounts.

Now, if NC was added to BP (just saying) then, I am suggesting that it is added as an extension pack. NC is and always will be it's own world (like the others) and can be re-developed and modified as an independent game but, think of the additional revenue that could be generated to NC as it's own world with thousands of BP players looking for a world to call their "Home World" is significant.

Tell me Nidhogg/Snowcrash, haven't people been asking for walk around worlds, space stations? Why not re-use other worlds and offer their owners the ability to make more cash from a shelved item? It would be passive cash (to a certain extent) for you after the initial development standards.

I have many thoughts about this concept but, I believe the people at NC/BP can make a new market for reusing other shelved mmo�s and create a BP CORE that could encourage independent development by outsiders delivering new and exciting material to BP and all this would extend your own shelf life while creating an interesting collaboration of developers enhancing their signed on produce and wanting it secure from trouble.

Respectfully,
JohnGalt
24-07-11, 23:14
Biglines

nope, I meant instancing partially for specific groups :p "leveling in peace" is completely counterproductive to neocron's atmosphere imho ;), the same with not being able to walk from one place to the other and passing all the zones along the way. Actually instancing the whole world would probably be the same as it is now, as different servers, which isn't a bad thing when populations are high.

same still for making neocron an addon for a crappy game (BP), please don't, keep neocron a separate game. People seeing neocron added as an addon to BP will just think "oh great, now it's just a minigame". If it's added as an addon, it will never be viewed as better as the game it's added to, and so you'll keep the entire majority of people who don't like BP from playing neocron.
25-07-11, 00:48
Brammers

Leveling in peace is possible - Just don't remove your LE.

Now the LE gets forgotten often or included with some big arguments. I'm sort of the side of keep the LE with it's current mechanic in game. If the LE's want to PvE they can.

If they want to PvP they can, but they should know the price is you can't put it back it.
25-07-11, 00:59
Biglines

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brammers

Leveling in peace is possible - Just don't remove your LE.

Now the LE gets forgotten often or included with some big arguments. I'm sort of the side of keep the LE with it's current mechanic in game. If the LE's want to PvE they can.

If they want to PvP they can, but they should know the price is you can't put it back it.

agreed, the LE makes far more sense to me than instancing pve.

Hell if you want to make it more mainstream friendly, make it possible to put the LE back in at any level (for a cost, either micropayment or a lengthy and expensive quest/operation or something)

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