Remove PE PSI? (controversial yes!)

Ok so I was playing nc today for the first time in a while and a thought struck me. I mulled it over for a while and the only way I can explain it is to make a massive thread.

Hopefully this (long) thread will explain things generally to people who might not be so familiar. However if that bores you there is a short version at the bottom.

In the original nc boxed set the PE was described as the "Jack of all trades" and "master of none". Hence his rather average set of skills and peculiar levelling process/xp share. (compared with the other classes at least).

In recent months there have been lots of PPU threads - balancing ppus and nerfing ppus and boosting basic tl spells and all sorts of stuff. The thing with a lot of the suggestions about changing spells in those threads would automatically affect the PE in his role on the battlefield.

So with these two points in mind (and the fact that we are in the middle of Sparta balancing progression) I had this idea. Remove PE PSI. This would potentially ALSO help to solve some of the problems with PPUs and their low end buffs.

This is the perfect time to effect such a change as it is the first wholesale set of changes to NC since 2.2 and therefore will not imbalance or overpower the PE class or any other if it is done correctly. Other items can be rebalanced and adjusted into line to make the PE more well rounded. In effect it would split NC in half. Spies would be like APUs with guns and PEs with the changes detailed here would be more like Intelligent Tanks.

My initial thought was to give the PE more CON/STR/INT. No skill a PE has should go above 80 base. He is apparently the JOAT here. (Jack of all trades).

Perhaps something like this might work

Int 70 (currently 60)
Str 75 (currently 60)
Con 75 (currently 65)
Dex 80

Obviously these first 3 are interchangeable. I chose the figures listed as by current assessment with the projected levels of ingame items (assuming they stay the same level post balancing) the PE would now have access to better armour (Inquisition 3) a better heal tool (10 more con levels for body health to get up to 75 for the tl 40 heal tool) and enough int left over for one of the lower end trade skills (Imp/Hack/Barter).

Also this would make him much more "all rounded".

The spy retains his weak and frail outlook with the exotic weaponry - the gap between PE and spy is now much wider and more pronounced. With his superior Int the spy can be said to master the most basic PSI use whereas the PE being the average Joe public will not concern himself with such matters. The genetic lab-grown super soldier looks very much akin to his regular counterpart of the average cyberpunk but with a good boost to all of his stats at the cost of his intelligence and generally everyone adapts to their role within the "lore" of nc and it all just sort of makes sense. I hope you see what I mean with this as this is integral to the success of the idea.

Now the PEs armour will need to be carefully considered because now he can wield many more weapons much better (melee and cannons get a boost) but he should not ever really be better than a tank or spy in the respective discipline. He should have an equivalent defence to a tank (scaled by TL) so perhaps access to medium belts would now shore up the issues he had by losing his psi. Having access to the tl 40 heal tool without too much gimpage/drugs will help also.

It would be pertinent at this stage to crunch numbers based on the proposed new values for armour for the "new" pe. He should have a range of armour that is suitable to a levelling tank but not a capped one. So for example INQ3 at best and some form of decent energy protection (lowest level duranium maybe) but never replace the Gen tank at doing tank stuff. The same care should be taken with his new int levels, he should have access to a decent set of belts (if the int requirement is to be kept on those) but only up to medium level, not heavy due to the overpoweredness it would provide. Essentially he should have access to mid-tier items across the board but no specialist stuff (Gods wish/Heavy belts/Duranium4).

It is difficult to propose exact numbers as they are potentially subject to change as per the balancing changes so I have to use generic statements to illustrate examples.

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Short version then

Remove PE PSI - give them STR and CON to make them more resistant to damage and INT to give them a boost in 2nd tier tradeskilling (BRT/HACK/IMP). Make the PE more like the tank.


I know in NC1 a lot of old school PE players would live for the skill it took to be able to use shields and a gun and constantly be able to rebuff yourself and shoot back in a fight and it was a certain finesse with which these players operated. Watching a good PE duel was a thing of beauty in the old days, however with the current version of NC I realise that noone really uses PSI on a pe any more because of the cast time on buffs now. Hence the reason for this idea.

Controversial, yes it is. Ridiculous? Yeah maybe that also.

However I would love to hear your thoughts guys?

I think the PE will find back to old strength with the balancing patch. Back in the Days a PE was a selfshielding and stealthing roamer for "search and destroy" jobs. Your idea would just make him to a Tank/Spy hybrid.
The Point is if you dont wanna go for HC weapons for what do you need that much STR? Ye, better armor even the Duranium one but isnt a tl 30 psi armor better regarding all the fcr/pcr point you skilled in strength? And if i play alone i would further support some psi abilities than 10 extra con lvls, cause they dont boost me that much. Beside this we dont need stealthing CS using PE's. :p

The only thing i would support on this move is an implant which can swap str and dex. Means like -15 Dex + 15Str (probably some Bonuses).
It would take an implantslot so the advantage is overall lowered but it opens all the access to rare HC/MC Weapons. I wouldnt even see a PE much superior in this case, you need a decent fine tuned Str setup to not be too weak against pcr/fcr weapons. :)

Honestly, I've always liked the inclusion of PSI on non-psi characters, but as you point out the value of this skillset is at an all-time low.

The only way I could even consider being a proponent of this is if Spies received the same treatment. If there is no reason for a PE to have the ability to cast Blessed Deflector, Absorb, and Blessed Damage Boost, there is no reason for a Spy to cast regular Deflector and Protector.


There would need to be some quantification for the Spy end of things (as with the PE) but I'd jump for joy if my Spy had 10 more Con & Str.


All this said, I already hate the lack of PSI in this game. I'd beg/plead that any change like this be evaluated deeply and be set in motion either at the same time or very very close to the re-introduction of an enjoyable APU class and PPU tweaks. I'd hate to futher eliminate PSI from the game without creating an outlet.

No one is asking, but my first PPU tweak would be to return heals to 15 seconds. These 60 second heals leave too much room for players to milk the safe zoneline with a dual-logged PPU, and they remove some of the complexity of the PPU in Op fights.

I would propose the removal of stealth also for the pe if changes were made.

Im very much against this idea.
It wont really help PE's in opfights, and it would remove what IMO is a defining ability for PE's.
Yes, currently PSI is not used on PE's, but hopefully the balancing will change this.
IMO PE's needs to get back to what they used to be, small-scale fighters/gankers/solo'ers.

IF something like this was to happen, the PE resist CAP would have to change aswell.

WTB Duranit back in game! Also WTB Duranit for Spies!

As for the "defining abilities of PE's" comment, I agree whole-heartedly with this statement-- if it was truly beneficial. Given the fact the skillset is largely underused, it is quite difficult to argue that it is defining in any way at this point in time.

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Originally Posted by Divide

WTB Duranit back in game! Also WTB Duranit for Spies!

As for the "defining abilities of PE's" comment, I agree whole-heartedly with this statement-- if it was truly beneficial. Given the fact the skillset is largely underused, it is quite difficult to argue that it is defining in any way at this point in time.

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Uh I definitely agree that its not even close to being a defining skill ATM. I do have high hopes for the balancing though.. ;)

I've been gone for so long I don't fully comprehend what has changed-- have the buffs just been nerfed so much that they don't provide the benefit they used to, or is it a lack of dex/high-tl weapons that have forced players to use a +dex glove?

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Originally Posted by Divide

I've been gone for so long I don't fully comprehend what has changed-- have the buffs just been nerfed so much that they don't provide the benefit they used to, or is it a lack of dex/high-tl weapons that have forced players to use a +dex glove?

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A bit of both.
The shields gives so little resists, that you (most of the time) just gain more, by using a dex glove, to be able to do more damage.

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Originally Posted by Dropout

A bit of both.
The shields gives so little resists, that you (most of the time) just gain more, by using a dex glove, to be able to do more damage.

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Could this be altered at all by putting +DEX back on the pistol/rifle CPUs? I'm all for buffing the lower-end PPU stuff too, but I feel that the lack of +DEX on those implants is a direct stab to PEs that (possibly) inadvertantly sets Pistol/Rifle spies back as well. IMO new brainport post.

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Originally Posted by Divide

Could this be altered at all by putting +DEX back on the pistol/rifle CPUs? I'm all for buffing the lower-end PPU stuff too, but I feel that the lack of +DEX on those implants is a direct stab to PEs that (possibly) inadvertantly sets Pistol/Rifle spies back as well. IMO new brainport post.

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It would help, yes. But lower level PSI modules still needs to be made better. As it is, you only gain 2-5% resists from the shields (Although it does sound fairly good, you really do not feel any difference (This is not counting Blessed Deflector, which give a bit more - but PE's do not need more STR based resists tbh)).

Honestly, 2-5% is shit and, aside from PEs, new players are the ones that are punished by this.

There are lots of players out there that want to level as a healer to tagteam with a buddy who have that ability in most any other mmo. A healer should benefit any group that is leveling. The problem stands that until one can cast Blessed spells, a PPU is a detriment to a team. Healers should never be dead weight.

Personally I would rather go back to NC1 Shelter and Deflector PEs as that was so much easier to rebuff during a fight. Lack of WOC weapons and no gloves coupled with reachable stats on most guns without too much gimping made the PE the best class in the game.

I posted the ideas above because I couldnt think of a way to get back to that and having the pe as a mini-tank or mini-spy (as divide aptly put it) seemed like a good alternative. To the best of my knowledge it has never been suggested and so far has promoted some great discussion so I am pleased with that part!

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Originally Posted by William Antrim

... "Jack of all trades" and "master of none".

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exactly. let me tell you the bitter truth. the PE is not a battle line char. and never will be. the PE is meant for 1vs1 fights, or small groups. besides that the PE is plainly wonderful for "just playing the game", the last real member of humanity in the 29th century. while i agree the PE should receive some Dev attention, subtle balancing would probably do. on second thought: yes, please, give us more toys to play with. weird stat-changing imps, like kamis. new char classes (i think i proposed an all-75, no-psi cyborg class back then, when even tanks could use a tiny psi-heal). just for the fun of it. but please dont kill of the PE class.