The APU Question

So, APUs.
They went from being the only class worth having in a team fight in 2.0/2.1, to being pretty much the worst pick in 2.2.
Common suggestions to bring APUs back to relevance revolve around increasing frequency and damage to make them competetive numerically again.
I don't think this will work. Make APUs have an equivilant "damage * toughness" value as tanks, and we quickly plunge back into monk-o-cron (The alternative is making APUs a true "glass cannon", but I'm not sure that anybody really wants that. A class that can destroy somebody almost immediatley if they get the drop, but shatters if seen coming and takes hits - rather un-Neocron) . Not only as the weakest defenders with the slowest heal do APUs have the most to gain from PPU buffs, they also have bucketloads of int that can be put into side skills. The game of team-combat quickly becomes about ignoring their tanks to focus the more dangerous (and squishier) APUs down first, and the best way to do that is with more APUs of your own. No, I feel that tanks have to remain the ultimate pure combat class - after all they aren't good for anything else, and the best fighters using huge guns feels much more cyberpunk than mages being the top dogs. PEs and Spys have greater independence and can perform additional roles (although again both need to be looked at somewhat).

So what then, if making APUs into high damage/poor defence machines will create a game that we don't want, should be done with this class? Lots of people on here have backed the idea of an APU role change. I suggest filling a role that Neocron hasn't realy bothered with - make APUs primarily debuffers. Let APUs continue to have their curret set of spells (although perhaps a bit less variety may be a good plan - is a full set of bolts AND lances AND beams AND halos really needed?). Reduce the damage/time a little from where it is (frequency can go up if it's going to make them more fun to play). And give them a whole bunch more spells that looks something like this (all numbers are to be tuned, some of these ideas to be thrown out/radically redone):

• Damage Boost - pretty core to the new debuff role. Works essentially like it does now, although requiring a few less overcasts would be good.
• Antishield spells - Yep, give all these (back) to APUs too. No more holy antibuff/unprotector though. Make them all cast a little quicker, but also require picking an individual shield/buff.
• Reduce Focus - Reasonably slow cast. Provides a 10 second reduction in damage output by the target - 5/7.5/10% for basic/holy/blessed (scales off dmg%).
• Distract Mind - Yes that old thing. Interrupts the current action of the target. Be that spell casting, reloading, attack animation, whatever. Probably quick cast (have to use it at the right time) but HUGE mana cost.
• Stumble - To be implemented first in a test environment, and considered carefully just how people feel about the impact of it. Abandoned if it feels cheap or unfun. Causing the target to stumble, preventing movement (but not aim or attack) briefly (less than 1 second) for players, longer for NPCs.
• Illusion - replace the target with psi-projected image of them (giving the target a very brief, eg 1 second) stealth, moving mob aggro to the projection for as long as it lasts (returns to "real" target with projection disapearance).
• Others - any other spells people can suggest that fit into a "debuff" class role. I'm sure better can be done than this

So, what's the hope from this:

• That APUs really have a clear purpose in the game
• An additional playstyle is available
• That PEs and Spies might consider speccing APU, PPU or PSR as a choice.
• That with the right values for these sort of skills, and the right damage on their attack weapons, APUs might be a viable "one-on-one" class, but in a very different way to PEs/Spies (who need to be more different, but thats another kettle of fish) who are different to tanks.
• That the PvE and PvP games both got a little more sophisticated than "hit thing 'till it falls over"
• A lot of the silly abti-hybrid features could hopefully be removed or toned down

"Citizens of Neocron, our history is giving just the right answers on this question: As you all know, back in early 2558 Thor and his tribesman started a powerful attack on the city, that time ruled by Crahn and his psi-monks. Thors warriors had brand-new plasma guns, so they won. in other words: the psi-monks lost because they were weaker. and that was even before gentanks were stepping in by the year 2576. and i want to make clear, that all demands for stronger psi-monks do not come from the middle of our society, but from a fringe population of youngsters, idling in front of their hometerms and wasting valuable time to online-games like "world of orcs- and elves-huggers".

in other words, i support cmasters ideas for an apu-role-change

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Originally Posted by CMaster

[...]make APUs primarily debuffers[...]

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My only idea was the (what you called) "glass cannon" approach for the APU but this is so much better.

It also makes very much sense to have this kind of teaming between APU and PPU anyway.

/signed

Lets try this please. Also maybe think about giving apus DoT that lasts longer than the normal ak/bhg stacks.

Essentially what you are asking for is a role reset on the APU to go back to how he was originally. I am happy with that.

The only way the game would go back to Monkocron though is if the APU was the only one who had the antibuff. If you gave the PEs an antibuff that required STR and INT for example (So that only the PE could use it at high end/cap) then you would give him a role at op fights too. The PE has shit damage at the moment but he can kill an unbuffed player fairly well. It wouldnt be op fights bringing ALL apus then either. It would focus on bringing the mix of antibuffers/damage dealers/healers. In this case a team would have to choose to focus its attention on the damage dealers, the healers etc etc.

Besides you cannot apply science to op fights. Everyone knows that. The best battle plan in the world goes to rat shit as soon as the plasma starts to fly.

Damage Boost - no leave it as ppu thanks. The ppu solo needs something he can affect damage with, if it ever comes to that point.
Antishield spells - Yep, give all these (back) to APUs too. No more holy antibuff/unprotector though. Make them all cast a little quicker, but also require picking an individual shield/buff. Give this to PE as well.
Reduce Focus - no thanks
Distract Mind - PVE maybe, not PVP
Stumble - worse than parashock, no thanks.
Illusion - possible PVE use


Make the lances or whatever a ranged spell, something more like the rifles are currently.

Make the APU have range and a decent RoF and with current values for damage he is fine. This whole reticle closed for damage thing is crap too. It needs to be removed. The only thing that the reticle closure should effect is the % chance of spell fizzle - ie a miss. The same as guns have.

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Originally Posted by BlueRobot

Lets try this please. Also maybe think about giving apus DoT that lasts longer than the normal ak/bhg stacks.

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This too, for poison and fire please. To combat the spys stealth.


This way everyone on the battlefield can fulfill at least one role and some classes can fulfill two, making them even more valuable.

The APU can already use an antibuff with nanites but it is maybe not really a good implementation.

I know this is kinda thread necromancy, but I didn't want to start a new topic on something that had been discussed recently. In regards to the OP I honestly like the role of a glass cannon, or at least having it be an option. I see where you're going, and think it's cool and all but what about those (like myself) who enjoy APU because it is a glass cannon? I also thought that a lot of your thoughts where very PVP centric, but PVE must be taken into account. I honestly just think that, as it was in 2.2 (haven't played since then, just noticed that the game was getting updates) the monks where just too much glass and not enough cannon. I am not sure about the changes made since then (I am downloading now), but I would honestly enjoy my APU being a glass cannon, and I think that if you find the right balance, that would be a very enjoyable class. Just my two cents really. I am not an expert, but I do LOVE this game and I really enjoy playing APUs, but I would like them to keep their glass cannon role personally.

On another note, how are APUs doing now? In both PVE and PVP. Any answer is appreciated.

Edit: Whoa, I just realized how old this thread is, sorry about that. I should remember to check dates next time. Sorry again. I would still really appreciate an answer to my question though, if it's no trouble.

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Originally Posted by William Antrim

Essentially what you are asking for is a role reset on the APU to go back to how he was originally. I am happy with that.

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No, I'm asking for the APU to be a class that survives of the strength of debuffs, not pure damage. They make their targets weaker, then kill them while weak. This could be balanced so that they are strong enough 1-on-1, while meaning that it never makes sense to have nothing but monks in group fights. At the same time, there is almost always a use for an APU in a group. I honestly think that if the only difference between classes is different damage/health ratios, we'll forever see people stacking whichever class is slightly favored by the vaugeries of the balance at that point.

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Make the lances or whatever a ranged spell, something more like the rifles are currently.

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Have to 100% agree with your idea of making the large number of different APU spells actually behave differently, rather than all having very similar range/freq/damage. (Outside of a few weirdos like Ball and Ball Blast)

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Originally Posted by Dracain

I know this is kinda thread necromancy, but I didn't want to start a new topic on something that had been discussed recently.

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Personally, as long as the same issues are being discussed, I'd rather see old threads reused, rather than new ones started (note - once there has been some significant balance changes, I think new threads make more sense). Not sure how anyone else would feel though.

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Originally Posted by Dracain

In regards to the OP I honestly like the role of a glass cannon, or at least having it be an option. I see where you're going, and think it's cool and all but what about those (like myself) who enjoy APU because it is a glass cannon? I also thought that a lot of your thoughts where very PVP centric, but PVE must be taken into account. I honestly just think that, as it was in 2.2 (haven't played since then, just noticed that the game was getting updates) the monks where just too much glass and not enough cannon. I am not sure about the changes made since then (I am downloading now), but I would honestly enjoy my APU being a glass cannon, and I think that if you find the right balance, that would be a very enjoyable class. Just my two cents really. I am not an expert, but I do LOVE this game and I really enjoy playing APUs, but I would like them to keep their glass cannon role personally.

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APUs have never (at least in my time of playing the game, from ~NC2 launch) been glass cannons. They were, from NC2 launch to 2.2, the highest damage/second weakest defence class. (Spies, unless they popped lots of drugs were squishier). That doesn't make them glass cannons. Buffed up by PPUs, they were very, very tough, and even without PPU buffs, they didn't drop anything like fast enough to earn the "glass" monkier. Equally, while they hit very hard, they've never really hit hard enough to justify being glass. A true glass cannon need to get the drop on their opponent, take them by surprise - but when they do, there's almost no chance to comeback. Equally, if they glass cannon is caught out, they should smash just as quickly as they would shatter their target. And here we come to a big issue with a glass cannon in an MMORPG - it's awful for PvE against typical targets. Mobs have big, big piles of hp, and you kill them by wearing that away. A glass cannon really struggles with this, as they aren't able to burst down mobs before they can come back, so their poor defense makes solo hunting really, really hard for them. My idea to do with debuffs was hopefully to make APU solo PvE a more viable prospect, especially as a less high damage class can be treated more generously with regards to heals and the like (an obvious option is some kind of "vampire" spell)

http://www.thegreenmachine.eu/images/likes.jpg

Part of me likes that idea, and part doesn't. I misinterpreted what you where asking for. I was thinking that you wanted to turn APU into a debuffer completely. Frankly, I like being the high damage guy, so I don't really want that role to be taken away from me. Though if you added the option to be a debuffer, I would think that to be quite cool.

I'm still unsure about this. It will be very hard to make debuffing not an absolute necessity (HAB on APUs is classic example) or a waste of time (anti-buff nanites).

In all honesty, I personally only care to get rid of all the antispells from the PPU. One way or the other ;)

[x] i vote for cmaster. and his apu concept.

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Originally Posted by phunqe

In all honesty, I personally only care to get rid of all the antispells from the PPU. One way or the other ;)

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Yeah I think that most people agree that they don't belong to the PPU!

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Originally Posted by Dracain

Frankly, I like being the high damage guy, so I don't really want that role to be taken away from me. Though if you added the option to be a debuffer, I would think that to be quite cool.

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Well yes, obviously one of the problems with this is it takes APUs away from where they used to be, gives different reasons to enjoy and dislike playing them. On the other hand however, APUs can never go back to what they once were, as it was vastly unfair.

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Originally Posted by Dribble Joy

I'm still unsure about this. It will be very hard to make debuffing not an absolute necessity (HAB on APUs is classic example) or a waste of time (anti-buff nanites).

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The idea is that using the debuffs will be necessary to play as an APU. In terms of pure damage/time they wouldn't be able to compete with a tank, or probably a PE or Spy either. However, by using their debuff abilities, they'd be able to turn it into a fair fight.
This would also hopefully mean that having an APU or two in a team would always be useful - it would enable you to weaken or neutralize the star-members of the opposition team. However, it would never make sense to bring nothing but APUs, as once a target has been debuffed, a tank will do more damage than an APU would to the debuffed target. APUs would be expected to focus more heavily on the debuff role and less on hitting stuff in big team operations than they would during solo play, where they'd use some debuff abilities, but mostly focus on attacking.



The core concept is two-fold. On the aesthetic side, the idea is to make the APU the literal opposite of the PPU. The PPU heals and strengthens a target, the APU damages and weakens. On the balance side, it's to make APU a distinct playstyle, rather than having two classes (tank and apu) who do nothing but look at the target while holding down the mouse button, and at the same time make APUs useful contributors to a team, without ever being the only thing you need in a team.