View Full Version : Give Pe's Something That They Can Shout About
ok . i know . pretty mucha ll of you are gonna say . well pe's can be lots of different things . well,no you cant . you either go . h-c/mc/pc/rc/droner/R+D . yea . i know thats alot of things . but it needs something that stands out . like apu's have amazing power . tanks have good con . spys are fast/steath/long range(little bastard pistol spys are hard to hit ;p) u get my point .
do you think pe's skills should be changed?
Underground
29-05-04, 21:46
ok . i know . pretty mucha ll of you are gonna say . well pe's can be lots of different things . well,no you cant . you either go . h-c/mc/pc/rc/droner/R+D . yea . i know thats alot of things . but it needs something that stands out . like apu's have amazing power . tanks have good con . spys are fast/steath/long range(little bastard pistol spys are hard to hit ;p) u get my point .
do you think pe's skills should be changed?
No, PE's have the advantage of easy capping, plus a wide choise of possible options as you said. Low tech rifle PE or lowtech pistol PE IMO are better then tanks, for the sake of duels and encounters without alot of PPUs around.
A solo PE has much better defence then a solo tank, add some drugs into that and PE's can get sick offence and defence.
I hate stealth, Ive always been lowtech rifles or pistols on my PE. Uber defence with good offence, Just like tanks, better heal, less HP, evens out. It all comes from shelter, so when shelter drops then a PE's kinda shafted...
[Edit] Look again at a PE. A PE can get great defence, good offence, AND a usefull skill such as Hacking for belts and OPs or Poking etc..
quikc cap? so ? all chars can cap .
Why should kk listen to your biastry?
Thats not a rhetorical question.
PEs are not meant to have a skill to stick out they are meant to be decent at everything but exceed at nothing, if you want to exceed at a certain skill you can re-role.
Exactly. They have the second highest constitution in the game, aswell as the second highest psi allowing for some disturbing defence. They have the second highest tradeskill capability, and they are the second best class at using any single choice out of a selection of every weapon type.
Plus, they can do all this at once!
They are a 2nd best at most things, and they are the best at flexability.
PEs are not meant to have a skill to stick out they are meant to be decent at everything but exceed at nothing, if you want to exceed at a certain skill you can re-role.
Hah, if we could do that and still be useful in PvP then OK!
Anyway, by removing stealth KK have basically said: No, PEs are not Joats so stfu. Because if we were joats then we should be allowed to use stealth.
Underground
29-05-04, 23:48
Hah, if we could do that and still be useful in PvP then OK!
Anyway, by removing stealth KK have basically said: No, PEs are not Joats so stfu. Because if we were joats then we should be allowed to use stealth.
Along with any rifle or any pistol aswell ? Being able to cap them if your willing to rely on drugs...
Also having a tradeskill such as poke or hack (not const or res tho)
You have better solo defence then a tank to boot ? damn man, wish my melee tank had shelter just like my rifle PE :(
Hah, if we could do that and still be useful in PvP then OK!
Anyway, by removing stealth KK have basically said: No, PEs are not Joats so stfu. Because if we were joats then we should be allowed to use stealth.Joat is jack of all trade correct?? When did Private eye become Jack of all trade?? I thought they were called "Average Citizens" someone who can do one thing and be good at it but not the best? Jack of all trade is someone who can do everything but cant be the best at them.. Private eye cant do everything nor can any other class in Neocron.. So they never were Jack of all trade.. So stop calling Private eye "Jack of all Trade" they are ordinary citizens.. :)
let me put it this way..
latest patches have left tanks with 3 options :
Ravager, Speedgun Gatlin or melee.
and now you want to give PEs more than they have ?
PEs should never have had Stealth in the first place, stop trying to injustify it being taken away from them.
Along with any rifle or any pistol aswell ? Being able to cap them if your willing to rely on drugs...
Also having a tradeskill such as poke or hack (not const or res tho)
Nope, not willing to rely on drugs. Shouldn't have to in any case.
You have better solo defence then a tank to boot ? damn man, wish my melee tank had shelter just like my rifle PE :(
A) Doing anything apart from PvP and posibly hack/poke for pistol PEs will gimp your defence
B) Awww diddums... aren't you content with being overpowered already?
Joat is jack of all trade correct?? When did Private eye become Jack of all trade?? I thought they were called "Average Citizens" someone who can do one thing and be good at it but not the best? Jack of all trade is someone who can do everything but cant be the best at them.. Private eye cant do everything nor can any other class in Neocron.. So they never were Jack of all trade.. So stop calling Private eye "Jack of all Trade" they are ordinary citizens.. :)
It said in the manual somewhere that they are jack of all trades. Thing is most people are willing to accept that the manual is completely wrong in the game features aspect... except for that one tiny quote. See, thing is that that quote suits people as it might help them nerf a class which isn't theirs. Gotta love the community.
I'm a PE and I think we're just fine as we are right now. Probably the most balanced I've felt in the 2.5+ years I've played.
Honestly the only thing I would like would be a lower str req on the Peacemaker so that it was more viable for melee PEs... as a baseball bat is very suiting for them. I'd rather it had been an extremely low TL rare. But I just have a bat fetish...
ok . i know . pretty mucha ll of you are gonna say . well pe's can be lots of different things . well,no you cant . you either go . h-c/mc/pc/rc/droner/R+D . yea . i know thats alot of things . but it needs something that stands out . like apu's have amazing power . tanks have good con . spys are fast/steath/long range(little bastard pistol spys are hard to hit ;p) u get my point .
Yea and PE's thing that stand out they have a little bit of all of these skills.
PEs should never have had Stealth in the first place, stop trying to injustify it being taken away from them.
*agree*
PE still remains weakest class. Every class is usefull in some way, except PE. That didn't happen with the stealth removal, that was ever since the PE existed that way. Maybe it was intended, maybe not, only KK knows <-:rolleyes: :wtf:
And before someone says "guy xy owned with his PE blabla", then think about how much more that person would own with any other class.
KK simply forgot to make the PE usefull in some way. If, only if they decide to change anything they'll do it like they did it with everything else balancewise, like completely destroying hybrids instead of balancing them:
[selfedited from the beginning for less work for the mods o_O - Reason: flaming]
Yea and PE's thing that stand out they have a little bit of all of these skills.
uhh... cooooool
that helps them now :rolleyes:
And before someone says "guy xy owned with his PE blabla", then think about how much more that person would own with any other class.
OK I have seen alot of the top guys on saturn duke itout in neofrag
Vet,zoneseek,tuxy,element and many more all play PE's or tanks and the field is was preety fair regardless of class.
Mr Friendly
30-05-04, 00:54
do u not understand what being a PE is fool??... look: monk, tanks, & spies all have a strong point. in other words, their skills are strong ina certina area enabling them to do lots in that area.
the PE is not. its the average class that has slightly above average skills in EVERYTHING. <-- THAT is ur strong point. get used to it
OK I have seen alot of the top guys on saturn duke itout in neofrag
Vet,zoneseek,tuxy,element and many more all play PE's or tanks and the field is was preety fair regardless of class.
NF !=OP
1v1 balance != overall balance/usefullness
OP: S/D buffs for everyone
NF: S/D only for PE. Tank etc has no S/D here.
I only talk about OP fights and there you have to be quite stupid to come to fight (and not hack the OP) with a PE if you can choose between APU/PPU/tank/SH-Spy/Exec-Slasher-Spy.
do u not understand what being a PE is fool??... look: monk, tanks, & spies all have a strong point. in other words, their skills are strong ina certina area enabling them to do lots in that area.
the PE is not. its the average class that has slightly above average skills in EVERYTHING. <-- THAT is ur strong point. get used to it
again: That "strong" point help them zero in an op fight.
Dribble Joy
30-05-04, 01:02
Pes are never were and hopefully never will be JoATs.
Yes they cap quicker, yes they have more options availiable to them at end pvp.
This does not mean that they should be less effective than the other classes in PvP, solo or team.
Tanks, apus and even spies have distict advantages with them.
PEs have nothing that defines them. Why should they not?
PEs rely on all stat lines to be effective, that does not make them JoATs or should be a lesser class.
Mr Friendly
30-05-04, 01:06
again: That "strong" point help them zero in an op fight.
dont tell me ur another one of those that think its all about the OP fight, cuz QD will put u down in that area. in an OP fight everyone has ppu buffs, by definition etc, so dont even bring up an OP situation with a PE cuz guess what, a "war", ie: OP war isnt for a fighter whos average in every class. again: get used to it
dont tell me ur another one of those that think its all about the OP fight, cuz QD will put u down in that area. in an OP fight everyone has ppu buffs, by definition etc, so dont even bring up an OP situation with a PE cuz guess what, a "war", ie: OP war isnt for a fighter whos average in every class. again: get used to it
No problem. But where does it say: "PEs are useless at OP fights"?
If KK says that I'm ok with it. Then there is the overwhelming massive amount of 3 classes you can fight with ... wow
But only cause you say that I really don't care what you say regarding that.
But thx btw for confirming my point of the effectiveness of PEs@OP :rolleyes:
Mr Friendly
30-05-04, 01:14
But thx btw for confirming my point of the effectiveness of PEs@OP :rolleyes:
not going to argue with u, but:
No problem. But where does it say: "PEs are useless at OP fights"?:
u implied it in ur comment & the ending sayin that strong point doesnt help em in OP fights
&
If KK says that I'm ok with it. Then there is the overwhelming massive amount of 3 classes you can fight with ... wow
i feel sorry for u that u dont see that outta these 3 classes are many other types of fighters u can create & that a PE can do the same, can be diff types of fighters or just tradeskilelrs/fighters/hackers etc.
But thx btw for confirming my point of the effectiveness of PEs@OP
..... :wtf: u need ur eyes checked bud
newayz, instead of commenting back & forth on these forums with peeps like u, i choose to actually PLAY the game
l8r
not going to argue with u, but:
then don't do it ;)
..... :wtf: u need ur eyes checked bud
damned I know I forgot something :rolleyes:
*looks around* umm.. I see well enough
*looks around again* uh, now I see what blurred my sight: [edited :D]
newayz, instead of commenting back & forth on these forums with peeps like u, i choose to actually PLAY the game
Yeah, you know I actuall play this game too :eek:
just wanted to point it out :rolleyes:
NF !=OP
1v1 balance != overall balance/usefullness
OP: S/D buffs for everyone
NF: S/D only for PE. Tank etc has no S/D here.
I only talk about OP fights and there you have to be quite stupid to come to fight (and not hack the OP) with a PE if you can choose between APU/PPU/tank/SH-Spy/Exec-Slasher-Spy.
Ok Shelter for all but few wait for deflecter so Lib or PE are lovely. Lots of those players have taken there PE and done well at op wars.
But fact of the matter is I dont really see people tradeing in there tanks or monks for a PE. PE's may have weakers weapons but mix there deffence with the strength of a CS,HL,SL or any of those strong weapons and you have one overpowered class.
Wait hold on a minute PE's did used to be like that back with the old school lib but people like you cryed nerf so they lost it.
do u not understand what being a PE is fool??... look: monk, tanks, & spies all have a strong point. in other words, their skills are strong ina certina area enabling them to do lots in that area.
the PE is not. its the average class that has slightly above average skills in EVERYTHING. <-- THAT is ur strong point. get used to it
I'll make it easy for you. PVP needs specialisation. Having "average" skills in everything is NOT specialisation. Thus if PEs were to have "average" skills in everything then we would be SHIT at PvP. Get over the fact that PEs are not what you think they are.
How about....
If you think the PE is such shit you just dont play him?
And play a class that has a "specialization"?
That way you dont waste bandwidth bitching
Mr Friendly
30-05-04, 02:11
Yeah, you know I actuall play this game too :eek:
just wanted to point it out :rolleyes:
u definently do, thats why ur actually wasting time posting back on my post on this forum & post on others all day................ :rolleyes: :lol:
I'll make it easy for you. PVP needs specialisation. Having "average" skills in everything is NOT specialisation. Thus if PEs were to have "average" skills in everything then we would be SHIT at PvP. Get over the fact that PEs are not what you think they are.
ur right, its not. its ur strong point, not a specialization just like i said
anyhow, this would make about the 3rd time ive argued about PEs, & somehow its always a few that are the same guyz, so instead of wasting my breath, ima play the game, talk to my GF, somthin else besides trying to get u genious PEs to realize ur balanced in all points :rolleyes: :lol:
So...
I can have better resists than a tank
My earp absolutely kicks arse!
I can damage boost
I can holy parashock bolt like theres no tommorow
I can run cast stupidly easy
I also have enough points as low tech to recycle, or do light repairing
And I have enough strength to have brilliant force/piercing resist, and also have 90+ transport
I can hack an OP with self buff
I can fully cap aiming on pistols with the above comment.
OH wait, PE's dont have anything special about them :wtf:
& o...m...g, complete genious there @_@ *sigh* that just hurts too much to know ppl that genious play this game :wtf: :rolleyes:
"OH wait, PE's dont have anything special about them " thats exactly why u dont have a specialization, get fekin used to it or reroll
Clownst0pper
30-05-04, 02:12
So...
I can have better resists than a tank
My earp absolutely kicks arse!
I can damage boost
I can holy parashock bolt like theres no tommorow
I can run cast stupidly easy
I also have enough points as low tech to recycle, or do light repairing
And I have enough strength to have brilliant force/piercing resist, and also have 90+ transport
I can hack an OP with self buff
I can fully cap aiming on pistols with the above comment.
OH wait, PE's dont have anything special about them :wtf:
Think im going to have side with the PE's being balanced atm.
Like its been mentioned before PEs are supposed to be "average" which i think is how they should stay :eek: - seriously though just because they cant stealth anymore doesnt mean they NEED another toy to make em useful again.
Some Pe's if set up and used right are excellent in pvp, get a good con setup & a good speed set-up and your sorted. I had a pistol pe on pluto a few months ago and could pvp quite well. Just circle while spraying em with a libby (used to work great on tanks shitty slow aiming & apus).
The PE still has the advantage imo of being the most fun char to play, loads of setups to fiddle around with & no months of camping CRP to cap that last skill. (Monks INT comes to mind.....*starts humming mission impossible tune*
Dont flame me too badly im new to the forums :angel:
Mr Friendly
30-05-04, 02:24
Think im going to have side with the PE's being balanced atm.
Like its been mentioned before PEs are supposed to be "average" which i think is how they should stay :eek: - seriously though just because they cant stealth anymore doesnt mean they NEED another toy to make em useful again.
Some Pe's if set up and used right are excellent in pvp, get a good con setup & a good speed set-up and your sorted. I had a pistol pe on pluto a few months ago and could pvp quite well. Just circle while spraying em with a libby (used to work great on tanks shitty slow aiming & apus).
The PE still has the advantage imo of being the most fun char to play, loads of setups to fiddle around with & no months of camping CRP to cap that last skill. (Monks INT comes to mind.....*starts humming mission impossible tune*
Dont flame me too badly im new to the forums :angel:
exactly, ur right
________________________
(not at u wolf, everyone who disagrees basically)
lets see, look at all the things a PE can do witha good setup:
-have good resists, take 10+ HLs & FAs etc
-drive a hovertec
-be fast as a mofo
-hack
-barter
-implant
-have lotsa transport not being a tank
-can be melee if wanted & droner if wanted
-can cast DB
-can cap a lib /wyatt earp & ******** monks & even every other class if wanted
now b4 u say so what to all that, lets look at what the apu has:
(note these are things an apu can do without gimping PvP power for spells)
-can do lotsa dmg with apu
-can hack
-can drive a hovertec
-can wear hvy belts
bam, thats it. its BECAUSE a char has a specialization, he doesnt get much to do w/out gimping his/her PvP potential, meanwhile PEs can do ALL of that & still cap their weapons, be fast & ub4r in PvP
Psychoninja
30-05-04, 02:25
I think PEs are fine as they are now. You still have to keep in mind WoC will open up as DoY comes out and who's mostlikely to have their main stat capped? They don't play as big of a roll in OP wars as the other classes primarily because they're not supposed to. They're a simple JoAT class.
Any new toy that PEs would get would only be a luxury not a necessity imo.
forgot to mention in little rant a min ago - PEs get the sexist girl skins.
WHAT MORE COULD U WANT FFS?!?!? :lol:
Psychoninja
30-05-04, 02:41
Only thing I would want to give PEs would be dual pistols, thats pretty much it.
pe's are all rounders you get avarage of everything
Dribble Joy
30-05-04, 04:24
pe's are all rounders you get avarage of everything
No.
They.
Are.
Not.
Why can't people get this?
PEs rely on all stat lines.
THAT'S IT
That does not mean that they are all rounders.
They rely on dex for dmg/speed.
They rely on conhp/resists
They rely on Psi for spells (that without they are totally gimped in comparisson to the classes).
They rely on str for armour.
They rely on int for aiming/dmg and for belts.
This means that they have the capacity to specialise in more areas than other classes.
That's all.
It does not mean they should be any less effective or valuable than the other classes, why on earth should they not be?
Yes each class should have a speciality, why play other classes at all if not.
But they all should be of equal value.
As it is they are not.
Aside from one simple change, which people seem ferverently opposed to, despite it's simplicity, PEs have nothing that is their own (even then PEs are simply equal in combat effectiveness, nothing unique).
PEs with jetpacks, or anything that makes them of use (besides aforementioned simplistic change), would be great. Untill then all that PEs are usefull for is cannon fodder/niusances.
ok . i know . pretty mucha ll of you are gonna say . well pe's can be lots of different things . well,no you cant . you either go . h-c/mc/pc/rc/droner/R+D . yea . i know thats alot of things . but it needs something that stands out . like apu's have amazing power . tanks have good con . spys are fast/steath/long range(little bastard pistol spys are hard to hit ;p) u get my point .
do you think pe's skills should be changed?
how bout the fact that they can pwn any class 1v1
Dribble Joy
30-05-04, 04:50
how bout the fact that they can pwn any class 1v1
Given the highest lvl of PvP, then they die.
Tank and apu dmg out put/defence ratio is still higher than that of a PE.
Yes PE's get shelter, but they have a lot less hp, and a lot less resists than a tank.
Couple that with the lowest dmg dealing weapon class of them all (igonring exec and slasher, they are NOT PE weapons) and the other classes will own them.
A tank or APU at full rof hitting a PE will kill the PE well before the PE will kill the other, remember that at high end PvP, missing/speed is not a factor.
At mid lvl PvP, tank runspeed loss and PE speed does make up for the difference, but you cannot balance at that level of skill.
Aiming, speed, it's al irrelevant. At high end PvP all that matters is raw dmg/defence ratio.
Here the PEs are at a disadvantage.
*wants to be a Hacking HC-Tank and still be ubar in PvP like the Private Eye.*
But no. This thread is dumb.
Well dribble with that statement your clearly show you have no clue about high end pvp.
I have seen some of the best PE's beat some of the best tanks.
PE's have high deffence and they have a dam dam good running heal wich countss for a shit load. They may lack in some of the HP of a tank but around 400 hp is good. Mix that with the fact that the judge and Pain Easier is no joke dmg wise you got a dam good char.
Bottom line is no matter how you cut it most cryiers about stealth were shitty players and if you a shit player your gonna lose to a good player. Only way for some of these shitty players to be good is to be so overpowered a monkey playing your char couldn't lose then after a while everyone mirriors that and then once the good players get there hands on the overpworedness then the shit players are back and square 1.
Then all these players go back to nerf this followed by boost me again rather nasty little circle.
wow . i shudnt of posted this forum :p
People's idea of a jack of all trades is someone that can specialize in any field they want, hacker, droner, melee, heavy, pistol, rifle, apu, ppu, every option is open to a PE, where he may not be AS effective as some people, he is effective nonetheless.
Pe's have everything to shout about and nothing to complain about.
Tanks are shit at pistol, rifle, drones, hacking, apu, ppu, everything barring heavy combat and melee. Monks are the same, spys have far more fields open to them.
im likin pe as they are right now, glad they removed stealth now we can duel fair :)
a good setup pe has good defence and reasonable offence.
one thing i do ask is that they fix the sound of the liberator ... right now i sound like a kid running around the street with a plastic uzi WtF FIX it plzzzz. :D
Dribble Joy
30-05-04, 11:15
Well dribble with that statement your clearly show you have no clue about high end pvp.
I'd say the same about you, but nm.
Yes, PE's CAN beat tanks. It's not about what you have seen or 'my mate can pwn any tank', it's about theoretical end game PvP, at which point people don't miss, and at that point that tanks and APUs still out perform the PEs 1 vs 1.
Oh and tanks can tl3 heal almost as well as PEs.
Not that you'd agree with anything I ever say regardless of how well thought out it may be.
I agree with the stealth change, but I'm not talking about that, this is something that has been an issue well before stealth came in. I have not used stealth for ages, I can't I have 37 int.
What I am getting at is that PE are of little or no use (with or without stealth), to a team, they offer nothing that another class cannot do better.
I'm not asking for a nerf, just minor tweaks.
1 vs 1 combat is pretty balanced, it's not like other things in the game, but it could still do with improvements.
Im not sure on this topic. I mean, before I stopped playing, my PE hadnt capped his CON, and he cld still beat most people 1v1, save for a few of the good tanks and apus.
Problem for PE's will be OP wars. PE's, just like spies, will get blitzed in close combat, and at range PE's do pathetic damage anyway, so I dont see the point. Perhaps something that would give PE more of a survivor edge in OP wars but nothing else.
The thing that pisses me off the most with plps anti-pe coments, is that they always refer to the ubar PE that beat this and that. These PEs are usually the low-techs and more often than not are pistol PEs. Well these EPs don't have any problems, the removal of stealth didn't effect them, instead it was the TC PEs and especially the rifle TC PEs that got nerfed. And I totally agree with the removal of stealth for PEs, but for the TC PEs the addition of stealth way back when masked some underlying balance issues with them, especially in comparison with the low techs.
Its the low techs that have the uber tank-like defences (being able to use PPR+Moveon+lvl3 armour without any real gimpage to damage output) not the TC PEs. And its the pistol PEs (both low tech and TC) not the rifle Pes that can poke/hack ops without any real gimpage. So the biggest imbalance issue is with the TC Rifle PEs, this issue has always been there, but stealth masked. There should be no new items/abilities for all PEs in compensation for stealth, instead balancing the underlying and long standing issues with the TC and rifle PEs through some small changes is want I would like to see happen.
What the hell do PEs want if they feel that their stats are a disadvantage?
If you dont think you have enough str roll a tank, not enough dex roll a spy not enough psi roll a monk.
If your not happy with your class just re-roll, if you want to play a class without specialist attributes you have to deal with the fact that you wont be able to use all the highest tl rares without drug whoring.
If you choose to play any class you have to accept their limitations.
Ozambabbaz
30-05-04, 16:56
Balance threads like these won't work, they're still-born.
They guys who respond to these compare a PvP PE to any other class, and yea it's possible to be an Uber PE, agreed.
So these guys fought other guys who ate 3+ drugs to be balanced against classes who don't drug.
HOW THE FUCK IS THAT BALANCE?
The issue with balancing can't be resolved untill drugs are removed, classes balanced, the balance drugs to classes/skills
Mr Friendly
30-05-04, 17:32
This means that they have the capacity to specialise in more areas than other classes.
That's all.
thats what we've been sayin.....
yet u want more... 8| :lol:
Dribble Joy
30-05-04, 17:44
thats what we've been sayin.....
yet u want more... 8| :lol:
Uhhhh... no...
I want the classes to be equal/balanced.
As it stands they are not.
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